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Can't get copy of PPE! I can't find other post about this :(

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  • Can't get copy of PPE! I can't find other post about this :(

    Short History: I had a PPE and a Strangles vac done on a horse in another state on 10/30/12. The vet called the day of the PPE and said that everything went well and he had no concerns. I was billed a little over $300 on my cc for the PPE and was going to be mailed a copy. I decided to purchase the horse and the owner brought her down on 11/9/12 and I paid if full for her. But she had no vet records other than the Coggins.

    I contacted the vet last week on 11/6/12 to inquire if the copy of the PPE had been sent and also a record showing that the Strangles had been given (need this for my barn owner) she stated they had not been sent yet. I explained I did needed these asap since the barn owner wanted proof or the BO may quarantine my horse or make me move barns. I also asked about getting a Vaccination record of what shots she has had. I did get an immediate email just stating that she had had xyz shots in the spring and fall and that the strangles vacc were given. But I still have not received the PPE.

    I am looking into getting insurance I as I am going over the form I see that if the PPE is over 30 days old I will have to get another vet exam!!! I called the vet this morning and she says she gave the message to the vet and he will get to it ASAP. I explained the need for this info NOW and that the PPE should have been filled out while it was being done. The office secretary procedes to tell me that they are rarely done at the time of the PPE. WHAT!!! so your telling me that the vet is going to remember heart rate, breathing etc etc over 2 weeks later! I doubt it.

    What do I do?? am I just screwed?? Do I call the cc copy and try to get the charges reversed? I know I should have made sure I had them at the time I picked her up but hind sight is 20/20.

    I know there was a thread just recently about this but I can't seem to find it!
    The Love for a Horse is just as Complicated as the Love for another Human being, If you have never Loved a Horse you will Never Understand!!!

  • #2
    Your vet owes you the things you paid for (record of the PPE and strangles vaccine). It would be NICE to get the horse's past vaccination records, but since the prior owner paid for that it's really up to her to facilitate you getting those records (from a different vet, I presume. You didn't use the seller's vet for your PPE did you?) I'd send a strongly worded letter stating that the PPE was 2 weeks ago and paid in full (you did pay the PPE vet already, right?) and that you expect to have the written report within 1 week or you'll be reversing payment. I suspect that will get their attention. Send it to the office manager.

    I don't know why the PPE form wasn't filled out contemporaneously but likely the vet keeps his own records in a more informal manner and then when he gets back to the office, someone else types them into the nice form. That's how my vet does it. Doesn't mean she's going off memory for vitals signs etc. It's just that she prefers to take her own notes in the field and let someone in the office type them up later.

    I agree with you that it's been 2 weeks and this should have been done already. That being said-- I don't know where you are. My area got hit by a hurricane and it set a lot of things back a week or so. Yes, you should have gotten this already but 2 weeks doesn't seem like enough time that I'd be in FULL panic mode yet.
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

    Comment

    • Original Poster

      #3
      I just sent a professional email. stating the facts and dates and politely asking for the PPE as soon as possible. I'm in NC, the Vet is in VA and the area was slightly affected with the storm but he did the PPE the day after the storm.

      I am in such a hurry because I am looking into getting the horse insured and I see that they want a vet exam unless you have not know the horse 30 days and then they will accept the PPE. So after 11/30 looks like I might have to have another vet exam done just for insurance purposes.
      The Love for a Horse is just as Complicated as the Love for another Human being, If you have never Loved a Horse you will Never Understand!!!

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        And yes I did use her Vet since the owner stated that if I used her vet that she would open up all the previous vet records up to me. I did not feel like the owner was hiding anything about the horses medical history ( this barn and owner are very well known in the H/J world around the country and has more to lose reputation wise by selling me a bad horse) and its not really even a big deal about the vaccination history but the PPE I need ASAP!!

        Again I know all of this is completely my fault and should have been dealt with before I picked her up ...but who doesn't get so excited about a new horse and all lol
        The Love for a Horse is just as Complicated as the Love for another Human being, If you have never Loved a Horse you will Never Understand!!!

        Comment


        • #5
          I was going to say... Maybe it's just me but I feel like something fishy is going on here... did you not have your vet look at the x-rays and everything? It sounds like they're hiding something to me.. I'd be really surprised if you took her vet's word that the horse was fine and didn't look into it further... that would just be dumb.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Crazy4aOTTB View Post
            And yes I did use her Vet since the owner stated that if I used her vet that she would open up all the previous vet records up to me. I did not feel like the owner was hiding anything about the horses medical history ( this barn and owner are very well known in the H/J world around the country and has more to lose reputation wise by selling me a bad horse) and its not really even a big deal about the vaccination history but the PPE I need ASAP!!

            Again I know all of this is completely my fault and should have been dealt with before I picked her up ...but who doesn't get so excited about a new horse and all lol
            Well, that was bad judgment but too late now. Regardless, you're owed the things you paid for and I think you're entitled to politely demand them.
            ~Veronica
            "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
            http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

            Comment


            • #7
              You are doing the right thing to put pressure on the vet to give you a written copy of the PPE. In this situation, I think you would be justified to dispute the payment to the vet if they are not forthcoming. I also smell a very faint fishy odor. The seller's vet did the exam? And the only way they would release the past records was if you used their vet? And now that same vet isn't giving you a written copy of the PPE? Hmm. Might all be fine, used to be vets didn't give out written PPE results. But, nowadays if I do a PPE I expect a written report prior to closing the deal.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Yes the Sellers vet did the PPE. I did not do any x-rays as she is only 7 and hasn't done an awful lot of jumping and I have ridden her several times with no concern that there were issues. I still don't have any reason to believe there is anything wrong with her.

                I know, I know probably not the smartest decision but me and my trainer felt comfortable with this arrangement since this is a BNT/R who we felt was being completely open and honest about everything. I am still on the fence on if they are hiding anything. Just want what I paid for!!! My biggest concern at this point is that I need it for the insurance so as to not have to shell out more money for a vet exam to get insurance coverage!. I really didn't think it would be that hard to get the paper work!
                The Love for a Horse is just as Complicated as the Love for another Human being, If you have never Loved a Horse you will Never Understand!!!

                Comment


                • #9
                  There may not be anything in writing if you didn't get Xrays. My vets have been about 50/50 in writing anything down besides "PPE = $X" on a bill. Usually we go over the horse and talk about anything seen, but the only documentation is the Xray(s). Did you see a paper form or are you just assuming there is one?

                  I'd certainly say having a document is best practice for vets, but I wouldn't say they all do it. Some very good vets don't seem to.

                  Comment

                  • Original Poster

                    #10
                    I am assuming that there is a paper form. I was not there for the PPE, another state and all! When I had the PPE done for my previous horse I bought, the vet wrote down the vitals as he did them and then wrote up other findings on the PPE and gave it to me right then. I guess I was assuming this is how it should be done.

                    I actually even offered to fax over a letter to the vet explaining everything that I wanted done (which I got from a Cother from a previous post I posted about a PPE) He explained that everything list was standard for a PPE and would be done.

                    This is only my 2nd time purchasing a horse so I guess I will chalk it up to lesson learned!
                    The Love for a Horse is just as Complicated as the Love for another Human being, If you have never Loved a Horse you will Never Understand!!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      It may be in your best interest to have your own vet do a once-over on the horse too, just to be on the safe side.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        My veterinarian does all of the report on a tablet computer. It is a 7 page document covering the signalment of the horse, identification, brands, markings and things of that nature as well as the intended use of the horse and to what level and what the horse is currently doing, then the second page is 4 pictures of the horse from all four main angles. Page three is the physical exam nose to tip of tail with check boxes and an area to make notes if it is not considered normal. Covers General condition/cardio system, resp system, visual, digestive/urogenital/neurologic, etc... Page 4 is the palpation/inspection notes for the head, neck, shoulders, withers, back, pelvis, all limbs and documents scars such as neurectomy, colic scars and trauma scars then goes into diagrams of the feet with information on the shape, hoof tester sensitivity, shoeing, where in the cycle the horse appears to be and the wear patterns and pictures if needed. The vet can draw on this picture and use icons to display problems/differences. Page 5 covers all of the dynamic mothion on hard and soft ground and under saddle as well as all the flexions. This page also overs the laboratory information and the tests submitted and the results. Page 6 covers all of the recommendations and the advisements for the future and the general attitude of the horse and vices. Page 7(Most important) sellers statement with questions like when the horse last had medications, deworming, vaccines, dentistry, coggins, colic/diarrhea/choke/joint injections/last NSAID/recent work/previous farrier/dates with that and present feed/management style and whether the previous records are available to be viewed by the buyers vet.
                        That said...for 300.00 my doctor does not DO a written report, only a set of notes in the medical record. But, if they promised a report then they should provide one. The price sure seems low to me for a full PPE exam! Maybe that is from being in Southern California!!! Not sure where OP was from! If we want a less involved PPE and just the notes, we pay less. The other thing is that the vets are starting to charge for the insurance paperwork down here! Both for the initial certificates if the insurance companys won't take the PPE exam as the exam and for renewals! Ugggg!!!

                        Good luck and keep asking!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Maybe I'm just being cynical but the fact that you used the owner's vet, and was not present for the PPE is just plain stupid... You're going off of someone's word that is trying to sell you something..I know everyone in the horse world isn't out to get each other, but shouldn't you know better and expect that? I don't know.. but the fact that you cannot get a copy of the PPE is a HUGE red flag for me.... and you didn't do xrays because you feel like nothing is wrong with the horse? Did they ever disclose the past veterinary records to you, since you did use their vet for the PPE? Have you SEEN them? I just cannot believe you wouldn't consult your own vet, and take their vet's opinion when buying the horse....
                          Last edited by AlterHalter123; Nov. 16, 2012, 02:41 PM. Reason: I spell like a 5 year old.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think it's a little harsh at this point saying that it's stupid. Who hasn't done something less than smart in dealing with horses. I've bought a fair number of horses without a PPE exam, which is far worse. I'd be a little upset if people called me stupid (or what I did was stupid). I know things happen, but what's done is done. OP, you may want your own vet to do the exam anyway, like some have suggested, just for peace of mind. But I would still insist on the PPE report. Maybe they're just disorganized. Good luck with your new horse.
                            “Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”
                            ¯ Oscar Wilde

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              What exactly did you have done? Does the insurance want copies of a vet exam or just proof that there was an exam? What exactly did you have done for $300.00? If the vet doesnt do written PPEs hopefully they'd tell you that when you requested it.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I assume the PPE included a once over (hands on poking, touching, etc) of the whole horse, flexon tests, all vitals, looking at eyes, teeth, etc, watching the horse move and checking heart rate and breathing after exercise. I am shocked that people are saying that if you did not do X-rays there is nothing to write down.
                                My last PPE did not include X-rays and my vet sent me a very nice report that was clearly her filling in the blanks on an already set format.

                                OP, you are right to be frustrated. Keep after the vet. That is just crazy.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Perhaps it would help if you sent them the insurance form to fill out, assuming your insurance company has a form for vets to fill out. Some vets are just lousy with paperwork, so giving them a form to fill out can expedite the process.
                                  Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #18
                                    I previously started a thread on here asking what all a PPE involved and Scubed I believe was a poster that pasted a very good PPE to send in the case that you would not be available for the PPE.
                                    TO: Veterinary name
                                    FROM: me

                                    TO: Veterinary name
                                    FROM: me

                                    “Horse Name”
                                    Pre-purchase examination request

                                    INTENDED USE: Eventing (potentially through the upper levels) Horse has been described as a 4 year old, 16.2 hand off the track TB gelding, described as currently sound and in good condition in light work. I have not seen the horse in person, but have seen photos and video footage.

                                    Please do the following:

                                    1) General physical. If possible, could you also measure height. Check heart rate, respiration, eyes, ears, nose, mouth/teeth and general physical exam and neurological/coordination exam. No need to scope unless something in physical exam suggests the need for it.

                                    2) Gaits, hoof testers and flexion. Please check for any paddling, winging, interference, etc at walk, trot and canter. Check soundness (on both soft and hard surface, straight line and circle if available). Hoof testers and flexion for all legs. Any osselets, bows, splints? Where and of what condition? Any conformation of the legs, back or joints that would lead you to believe horse would not hold up in upper level work, as well as your general assessment of build and gaits for upper level work.

                                    3) Radiographs if horse passes 1 and 2 (I’m hoping you have digital that can be sent to my vet as well). If any lameness on flexion or other concern, please call me before going on with x-rays. Front feet navicular shots including sufficient views to check for ringbone/sidebone, and hocks, including both the medial oblique and the lateral oblique. If there is something in the physical that makes you doubt suitability of horse for intended use, please call me before taking x-rays.

                                    4) Don’t need any drug tests, or blood work except a coggins if the horse does not have one for 2011. If any vaccinations are not current (WEE, EEE, Rabies, Potomac, Strangles, Flu/Rhino, West Nile), please administer and create record of administration for me provided everything else on the exam is clean. If all is clean, please also create a health certificate for transport to address...


                                    The seller is "name". The address listed on their website is "address" and the phone number there is "number"

                                    Please feel to call me if you need additional information before proceeding or during the exam
                                    I can be reached:
                                    xxxx (work)
                                    xxxx (cell) best
                                    me@email.com
                                    My billing address is: "address"
                                    I sent this to the Vet and the owner. The Vet called when he arrived at the Farm and we reviewed that all of this would be done except the x-rays unless he saw something in the flexion or other wise that he felt that would be of concern. The only other thing that I mentioned was to please check for melanomas since she is a grey. He confirmed that everything went well by phone and there were no concerns.
                                    The Love for a Horse is just as Complicated as the Love for another Human being, If you have never Loved a Horse you will Never Understand!!!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Get another exam by your own local vet now that you have posession of the horse and cross your fingers.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        You didn't ask for a written report of the PPE. I think you're still entitled to one, but you didn't ask for one. Which may explain why they didn't immediately draft and send one to you. They probably didn't realize you needed it for insurance (I never have).

                                        I'm still a little head scratchy at some of the decisions you made along the line, but I don't think there's anything nefarious going on in their failure to send you written records. It's only been 2 weeks. It sounds like it's a track vet?! They may not have this as a super high priority. Ocassionally I use a track vet for things. I always have to call his office and ASK them to send me paperwork showing what's been done. It doesn't seem to be his regular practice the way I've always found it to be from sports medicine vets. Then again, $300 wouldn't buy yo the services you listed from any of the good sports medicine vets around here... So maybe the inexpensive vet also comes with the consequence of being a little office-disorganized.
                                        ~Veronica
                                        "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                        http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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