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WWYD: perfect horse except... PIC #40 and update, good news!

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  • #21
    Yes there are cheaper OTTBs but they aren't that tall, good moving or good looking. Now we haven't seen a picture so the good looking part is debatable, but if he's well put together he sounds like a bargain. The $500 OTTBs you see listed are usually short or have major flaws. If they are lovely and 16hh plus they are easily $1500 and above and this guy you already know his temperament, movement and jump ability are all good so even less risk.

    Almost any horse is going to have some issues by 8. His sounds pretty minor.
    Doubled Expectations (Roxy, 2001 APHA)
    Al Amir (Al, 2005 OTTB)
    Ten Purposes (Rosie, 2009 OTTB)

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    • #22
      Speaking from experience on this one.

      I found myself a lovely 9 year old TB that was perfect for me in every way. He too had raced, though had been off the track since he was about 4 or 5- the details are kind of vague there. He flexed clean but we decided to x-ray his hocks just in case. The x-rays showed some arthritis on one of his hocks. Previous owner had not had him checked as he was just a trail/companion horse at her place but did say that there had been an incident with another horse when he first went to her place. Given that he was a steal and exactly what I wanted, we bought him, hoping the arthritis would be a slow progression.

      Four years later, my horse is semi-retired. He is only 13, has never jumped higher than 3'3 and was kept on a great, arthritic-geared fitness regime with a coach who had lots of experience in the area of maintaining older horses as long as possible. It got to the point where he was just no longer comfortable doing serious flat work or jumping. We had him x-rayed again and the degree to which the arthritis had progressed was unbelievable. The vet recommended pasture rest- but he was still happy working and unhappy during the six weeks we tried 'retirement' so now we trail ride a whole lot and might give some easy (super easy) hunt paces a try. He gets injected in the Spring and is on supplements year round. I still love him and he is still useful, but the reality is I took a chance and am now 'stuck' so to speak with a horse that can't do what I bought him to do. He's awesome so I'll keep him, and fortunately we can afford to, but my showing and training goals have been put on the back burner.

      Speaking from a purely emotional point, I would walk away. I was heartbroken when I got my news. I wouldn't have traded our years together for anything, I learned a ton, and I do enjoy our new relationship, but I still really miss riding. I don't even want a new horse, I want my horse to be sound enough for his old job, but that's not in the cards for us. It's extremely frustrating to spend years working towards something and having your dreams cut short prematurely.

      On the other hand, if he is beautiful and she does have the financial abilities to keep him after he is retired or find him a good home, then maybe it's worth the gamble. But in my experience, if I had to do it again, it's not worth the heartache.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
        I missed that, and was confused by the fact that he seems to be jumping in the original post.

        I think the price is still a touch low for what he is, if he's as nice as she says. And I'm a little leery as a result. I am used to good size/good color/good temperment gelding OTTBs lightly restarted being more in the $4000-5000 price range and I am wondering why this one isn't.

        Why did he retire? Do we know?
        From what I've gathered he has not even been lightly restarted, hence many thinking the age/price combo is high. You and I being in SE PA we are familiar with seeing a good hutner prospect turning a pretty penny, but those are the ones already going w/t/c & cantering cross rails, nice movers, maybe even been to a schooling show.

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        • #24
          Arthritic changes are not all the same. There is a big difference to some calcification at the front of the knee...to changes in the hock joint. Or changes near a suspensory, in coffin joint etc.


          And a horse who had the knee injury when young....and raced on until he was 8 years old....is very different from horses who maybe raced when they were younger and ended their career much earlier.

          If the race that long...and pass a PPE that cleanly....I wouldn't be as concerned. I would be MORE concerned if he was a 2-3 year old or very lightly raced youngster.

          That is NOT to say something else may be an issue. Mine manage to hurt themselves just fine after passing great PPEs
          ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

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          • #25
            Harkington, the type of scenario you experienced is very different from the OP's situation. Your horse only raced a short period of time, had several years of ? (possibly not sound enough to do much with?), and hock arthritis. I personally wouldn't have taken him based on that. This horse has raced sound until age 8, which documents his soundness, and all of his other joints x-rayed clean.

            I agree that a TB that is super nice and has had some retraining could fall into the $4-6K range. BUT, this horse is 8 years old, has no retraining, and has some X-ray findings. If you have $2K to spend, I don't think anyone should have trouble finding a big, pretty, sound and sane OTTB (without retraining) in the 3-5 age range.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by tua37516 View Post
              From what I've gathered he has not even been lightly restarted, hence many thinking the age/price combo is high. You and I being in SE PA we are familiar with seeing a good hutner prospect turning a pretty penny, but those are the ones already going w/t/c & cantering cross rails, nice movers, maybe even been to a schooling show.
              Then how do we know he has a lovely jump?! Color me confused.

              We certainly live in a more expensive area... but other than real *off* areas of the U.S., big good colored no problem restarted geldings are usually more than $2000. Unless OP's friend lives somewhere other than she does, we're talking Western NY. That's a plenty horsey H/J area and should be roughly comporable to use. FWIW my OTTB was bought in Atlanta and I found the market nearly identical there. I've also done some shopping (didn't end up buying) of OTTBs in MD/DE/VA and again found the prices about roughly the same.

              Unless he truly is basically NOT restated... in which case I don't understand how there can be statements about how good his jump is? If he's not restarted, he's a bit more of a quality gamble-- but the first post laid him out in such a way that it seemed as though he's been restarted and is jumping around.

              If he truly has no retraining.... just off the track, I'm not as suspicious about the price. But I'd still want to know why the horse stopped running. A horse that was good enough to keep at it for 8 years... there must have been some reason to stop. I'd want to know why. As long as it wasn't something like an accident (that might explain the knee issues) I'd proceed. If it was somewhat fishy-- I'd pass.

              Only because resale is a concern and there's no clear story for what happened to explain the calcifitration. If resale was no issue, I might say roll the dice.
              ~Veronica
              "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
              http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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              • #27
                When I built my house, I put in seafoam green toilets and sinks, a blue jetted tub and faux blue marble laminate counter tops put in the kitchen and both baths. A friend walking through it shortly after completion said it might be hard to resell with those personal color choices. My response was "I'm not living here with neutral colors just so that SOMEDAY I can sell my house." I lived there for 10 years and the couple that bought it LOVED the all the colors I'd chosen for my house.

                So I'd stop worrying about resale and buy the horse.
                ~Kryswyn~ Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo
                Check out my Kryswyn JRTs on Facebook

                "Life is merrier with a terrier!"

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                • #28
                  I would take the chance. If this horse is coming off the track sound at 8 years old, he must be made like iron.
                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                    Then how do we know he has a lovely jump?! Color me confused.

                    We certainly live in a more expensive area... but other than real *off* areas of the U.S., big good colored no problem restarted geldings are usually more than $2000. Unless OP's friend lives somewhere other than she does, we're talking Western NY. That's a plenty horsey H/J area and should be roughly comporable to use. FWIW my OTTB was bought in Atlanta and I found the market nearly identical there. I've also done some shopping (didn't end up buying) of OTTBs in MD/DE/VA and again found the prices about roughly the same.

                    Unless he truly is basically NOT restated... in which case I don't understand how there can be statements about how good his jump is? If he's not restarted, he's a bit more of a quality gamble-- but the first post laid him out in such a way that it seemed as though he's been restarted and is jumping around.

                    If he truly has no retraining.... just off the track, I'm not as suspicious about the price. But I'd still want to know why the horse stopped running. A horse that was good enough to keep at it for 8 years... there must have been some reason to stop. I'd want to know why. As long as it wasn't something like an accident (that might explain the knee issues) I'd proceed. If it was somewhat fishy-- I'd pass.

                    Only because resale is a concern and there's no clear story for what happened to explain the calcifitration. If resale was no issue, I might say roll the dice.
                    I have to agree... the OP states "newly off the track with minimal jumping." So I am unsure if that means "fresh off the track" or "lightly restarted." OP, could we clarify what the horse is currently doing? Is he be being let down or has he started back to work to be a h/j horse?

                    Either way, I think it really comes down to how invested the OP's buyer friend is in keeping v. having resale value. From what I've heard it seems worth taking a risk on the knee pending good vet recommendations but if the OP's friend really wants a good resale prospect she may want something she can swear up and down is sound with "no issues."

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                    • #30
                      I'd also want to know was there a knee INJURY or is this just sort of random?

                      Why were they x-raying the knees on the PPE anyway? Did they do all the major joints? Were they all clean? How did the horse flex on that knee?

                      I wouldn't always expect someone to have done knee films on a $2000 horse (not faulting her, I would have!) but I still feel like we need to know a little more of the history.
                      ~Veronica
                      "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                      http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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                      • #31
                        I believe the OP stated the horse passed the flexion test with no problems in her first post.

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                        • Original Poster

                          #32
                          Really appreciating all the insight.

                          I guess she always wants to option to be able to resell him--she has another nice TB who she is passing along to her daughter now that he is "made".

                          The new guy really is pretty. Beautiful head, 17 hands and perfect dappley grey, no fading, dark forelock and he has a nice neck and hindquarters and this is just a few weeks off the track. First time we jumped him he just cantered down the line and popped over, ears forward, knees up and pretty even (little jump of course) and cantered away pretty as a picture.

                          Plus he is snuggly.

                          Can you tell we like him?

                          But I just euthanized my OTTB who had bad stifle arthritis and was lame for 7 of the 9 years I had him so I am very leery.

                          The vet said if it were for her...she'd buy him. She couldn't FEEL anything and he flexed totally normally. She liked him a lot. But you just never know if that front of the knee arthritis will somehow sneak to the joint.

                          BTW: His price WAS higher (size/gray factors) but down now because of the xrays. A nice TB trained past baby greens might go 20k here.

                          ughhhhh!
                          Ransomed from Suerteland.

                          “Half the failures in life arise from pulling in one's horse as he is leaping.”
                          August Hare

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                          • #33
                            Did she get an explanation for why he didn't continue racing?
                            ~Veronica
                            "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                            http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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                            • #34
                              Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                              Then how do we know he has a lovely jump?! Color me confused.
                              I just bought one in the same general area, same price (but a 4 year old). Never had been sat on aside from race training other than the day I went to look at him. He was off the track at a farm and they had a pen where we free jumped him. So I do know that he has the potential for a lovely jump...and is a good mover. Was great to sit on too (w/t/c both ways, got his leads and I could tell he's going to be pretty straight forward to bring along). Had I not bought him...his price would have doubled for the next person

                              If you are not looking at them still at the track..but at a farm, you can tell a lot. Most stop racing by 7-8. There are not many race horses older than 8 who are still running. Most just get a bit tired of it or the trainers want to stop with them before they get hurt and give them a chance at a second career while they focus on their younger horses.
                              ** Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip. ~Winston Churchill? **

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by CJ4ME View Post
                                Really appreciating all the insight.

                                I guess she always wants to option to be able to resell him--she has another nice TB who she is passing along to her daughter now that he is "made".

                                The new guy really is pretty. Beautiful head, 17 hands and perfect dappley grey, no fading, dark forelock and he has a nice neck and hindquarters and this is just a few weeks off the track. First time we jumped him he just cantered down the line and popped over, ears forward, knees up and pretty even (little jump of course) and cantered away pretty as a picture.

                                Plus he is snuggly.

                                Can you tell we like him?

                                But I just euthanized my OTTB who had bad stifle arthritis and was lame for 7 of the 9 years I had him so I am very leery.

                                The vet said if it were for her...she'd buy him. She couldn't FEEL anything and he flexed totally normally. She liked him a lot. But you just never know if that front of the knee arthritis will somehow sneak to the joint.

                                BTW: His price WAS higher (size/gray factors) but down now because of the xrays. A nice TB trained past baby greens might go 20k here.

                                ughhhhh!
                                I say go for it, if she is primarily looking to replace her personal horse and bring another along and it is not a necessity to sell, he sounds lovely! Pictures please!

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  I would pass for a resale project--I'll summarize what happened to me w/ two horses.

                                  I had a phenomenal OTTB 5yo for sale. I received him from a family reacing friend when he was 3 so I did not have him vetted at that time. He had looks, movement, attitude and ability. Sale price low 4 figs. Had 2 clients that were SOLID buyers. Buyer 1 had him flexed--flexed positive on both hocks. She did not move forward w/ the purchase. I passed it off as the vet being overly cautious and kept him on the market. Buyer two was in love with him--the morning the vet came for the exam the horse came up slightly off so she did not want to move foward either. This was heartbreaking for her and a huge disappointment for me b/c the horse did not have a lameness issue. Fast-forward to when I decide to have my vet xray him (now w/ board, training and vet I'm already past my asking price for this horse) He has arthritic changes in the hocks. Had him injected--saw a litttle difference but not significant. Ended up selling him for $1500 disclosing the problem. He has a wonderful home now but it was not a successful resale venture.

                                  Horse 2-TB hunter 11 yrs old. This guy was never raced-my husband bought him when he was a baby. Zero history of lameness-lovely mover-miles in the 3ft. Lovely looks. Again-2 solid buyers. 1st client has him vetted and his ankle flexes positive. Vet suspects ringbone--buyer does not move fwd. Again-he stays on the market. Buyer 2-vets him and same positive flex comes up. She has him x-rayed and ankle calcification is visible on xrays. She does not move FWD. We had our vet xray him and there is definite calcification which will show up on any vetting and will always flex positive. We took him off the market and my father-in-law has adopted him as his dressage horse.

                                  Both of these situations were stressful and disheartening. Buying clients will be very particular about what shows up on xrays, so be prepared to drop the sale price drastically if there is a repetitive positive flexion or dimple on the xrays. If you come out in the black after all the expense put into the resale horse, that is a great feeling, but sometimes it does not work out. Good luck!
                                  "Life is tough. I recommend getting a manicure and a really cute helmet."

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                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by bornfreenowexpensive View Post
                                    I just bought one in the same general area, same price (but a 4 year old). Never had been sat on aside from race training other than the day I went to look at him. He was off the track at a farm and they had a pen where we free jumped him. So I do know that he has the potential for a lovely jump...and is a good mover. Was great to sit on too (w/t/c both ways, got his leads and I could tell he's going to be pretty straight forward to bring along). Had I not bought him...his price would have doubled for the next person

                                    If you are not looking at them still at the track..but at a farm, you can tell a lot. Most stop racing by 7-8. There are not many race horses older than 8 who are still running. Most just get a bit tired of it or the trainers want to stop with them before they get hurt and give them a chance at a second career while they focus on their younger horses.


                                    There was something about the way the first post was written that sounded like this horse was a lot more let down/experienced than what you (and she, subsequently) have indicated. I agree with you that one that's had little restaring can be had for $2000ish. It sounded to me like this one had had a lot more work put into him. Not to mention the price bump for big and gray.

                                    And, indeed, we now know that the asking price WAS more than $2000, that's the revised price now that the knee arthritis has been revealed.

                                    You never know how picky the next buyer will be. You could put a ton of work into the horse and still have people walk away over the films. If resale is a MUST, an absolute MUST-- I'd pass. The horse is going to be oldish for how experienced he is and he'll always have that film (or worse, it's not going to get better).

                                    If resale is not a concern, this wouldn't be an issue for me personally. For resale, if I truly was being honest and planned to resell the horse, I'd keep looking.
                                    ~Veronica
                                    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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                                    • #38
                                      Of course if you're buying or reselling in general it will save lots of time and money to do your own x-rays in advance of advertising and then your price will be accurate and you can offer your radiographs for comparison or a baseline down the road. Also saves the nickle and diming from occurring as much.

                                      Emily
                                      "Courage is not the absence of fear but rather the judgment that something is more important than fear. The brave may not live forever but the cautious do not live at all." ~2001 The Princess Diaries

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Umm,
                                        Horses don't have knee caps (well at least not on their knees). The 'knee cap' in a horse is on the stifle. They can have a capped knee but that's completely different from a knee cap.
                                        Claiming to see a knee cap on an equine knee xray alone would make me highly suspicious.

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          #40
                                          Great news...trainer has a very eminent hunter vet take a look at the films and he thought it was nothing to worry about at all and gave her the all clear.

                                          Here is his original listing for anyone who wants to see him. It doesn't do him justice but you can get the idea.
                                          http://fingerlakestracklist.proboard...lay&thread=752
                                          Ransomed from Suerteland.

                                          “Half the failures in life arise from pulling in one's horse as he is leaping.”
                                          August Hare

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