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One more The Economy and Horses thread ... affecting big time shows

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  • Originally posted by tri View Post
    Quote:
    PS: If my farm is worth more than $10m when we die, I won't weep for my daughter paying tax on the value in excess of that.
    Well all the boarders may weep and all the people who showed at the facility may weep when it is sold to developers to pay the death tax. And the people who live around there may weep when they look at the tract houses being built over the top of what used to be a beautiful equestian facility.
    The first $10 million is exempt from tax in 2010. In 2009 it's $8 million.

    If it were to increase in value by a factor of 20 and get to, say $10.1 million, the estate would only owe tax on the $100,000 over the $10 million.

    It's really not so onerous.

    I could also protect my land from development with a conservation easement, but in our case it is well protected by zoning.
    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

    Comment


    • Originally posted by happyhorse3 View Post
      I guarantee you if this country was run like a business the nonsense and fraudulent use of our taxes would not be tolerated.
      Have you ever worked for a large business? I could have supported my horse habit on some of those expense accounts.
      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

      Comment


      • There is a big difference between "deciding to pay" for a service such as a horse show and the government forcefully pulling open your pocketbook and dare I say, STEALING your money with the strong arm of the KGB, I mean IRS.

        If I decide to pay for something that I can't afford fine. I'll deal with the fallout. What I don't like is the government stealing more and more money from me because YOU (not literally you, hypothetical) think MY money could be better spent on something YOU want.

        There is a saying that, "Thank God, we don't get as much government as we pay for." and there is a lot of truth to that.

        Comment


        • Poltroon! Wow! Those numbers are really off-base. Here is a cut & paste from the Bush 2001 Death Tax cut and the Dems desire to repeal it:

          The estate tax's gradual disappearance -- and reappearance -- was mandated as part of Bush's 2001 tax cut plan. Congress decided to make the repeal temporary as a way to save revenue. After phasing out in 2010, the estate tax will return in 2011 with a $1 million exemption and a levy with a tax rate of as much as 55 percent on estates of larger size.
          And here is how it was before Bush's tax cut and what the Dems want to return to:'

          What is the rate of the estate, gift and generation-skipping tax
          (which is really a Death Tax)?
          After utilization of a $625,000 exemption, the rate of tax is 37% and once assets have reached the size of $3 million, the rate of tax is 55%.

          What is the applicable lifetime exclusion amount?
          The applicable lifetime exclusion amount is $625,000 in 1998 –- scheduled to increase in uneven increments to $1 million in 2006. It is the amount that an individual can pass, free of gift tax during life or estate tax at death to anyone they choose.

          How much revenue is raised by the Death Tax?
          A little over 1% of the government’s revenue was generated from the death tax in 1998.

          What size estates file estate tax returns?
          89% of all taxable estates filed in 1995 were $2.5 million or less in size.

          Estates of what asset size pay estate taxes?
          54% of all estate taxes paid in 1995 came from net taxable estates of $5 million or less.

          What country has the highest rate of Death Tax?
          Japan has an inheritance tax of 70%, but after credits and exemption it is an effective tax rate of 30.3%. The United States has the highest rate of estate tax in the world at the rate of 55% and an effective rate of 44%.
          This affects most of us who own horse farms, boarding farms, horse show facilities, etc. The Death Tax makes horse owning and especially BREEDING a one-generation deal.

          Who is the poster that equates paying half your assets in death taxes to losing your pension at Enron? You can't be serious??

          Comment


          • Originally posted by tri View Post
            If I decide to pay for something that I can't afford fine. I'll deal with the fallout. What I don't like is the government stealing more and more money from me because YOU (not literally you, hypothetical) think MY money could be better spent on something YOU want.
            We agree, but: Maybe I don't want MY money spent on something YOU want. My (not literal, hypothetical) money alone can't build a bridge across the river or make the trains run on time; yours (not literal, hypothetical) alone can't pay for child welfare case workers or airport security checkpoints. My money (not literal, hypothetical) alone can't get a public school built or pay for damage from Hurricane Ike; yours (not literal, hypothetical) alone can't insure bank deposits or pay for a stoplight and crosswalk in front of the courthouse.

            Pooled together, however ... they can.

            I may not want my money (not literal, hypothetical) to pay for the war in Iraq because I don't believe in it; you may not want your money (not literal, hypothetical) to pay for combatting the drug trade because you think it's unwinnable. I may not want my money (not literal, hypothetical) to pay for public service announcements against drug abuse -- personal choice; you may not want your money (not literal, hypothetical) to pay for a border fence.

            If you want to design a form so that each one of us can check off what we want to pay for and what we don't, hey, I can get behind that! But then you'd (the hypothetical you'd) have to fund the (government) agency -- and hire the workers -- to keep track of who wants to pay for what, get the money collected and divved up, disburse it, do repeated audits to make sure it's going where it's supposed to....

            And where, may I ask, did the numbers you just posted come from? Because surely you realize that numbers -- and the political party behind them -- can be spun pretty much any way the party you're blindly following wants to spin them?

            Multigeneral ownership of farms and horse facilities occurred loooooooong before Bush got his cut in the death tax; if someone has a farm worth $10 mil or $30 mil or more, then there ought to be financial structures in place to cover the taxes. If there aren't, then that's the fault of the person who owns the farm, not the government. (And keep in mind that in many, many areas, local and state government takes a chunk, too.)
            Congratulate me! My CANTER cutie is an honor student at Goofball University!

            Comment


            • Excellently said Beezer!!!
              The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
              H. Cate

              Comment


              • Originally posted by tri View Post
                Poltroon! Wow! Those numbers are really off-base. Here is a cut & paste from the Bush 2001 Death Tax cut and the Dems desire to repeal it:
                Tri, no one in the Democratic party is supporting going back to the $625k exclusion or even the $1M exclusion. And, those are per person: in the case of a married couple, it's doubled. The negotiations have all been in the multiple million dollar range.

                http://democrats.senate.gov/~dpc/pubs/107-1-97.html
                (This seems to be from 2001)
                Under current law, estates owned by married couples are eligible for a general estate tax exemption of $1.35 million ($675,000 for individuals). The exemption is scheduled to reach $2 million ($1 million for individuals) by 2006 and thereafter. Married couples with a family-owned small business or farm are eligible for a separate $2.6 million exemption ($1.3 million for individuals).

                As a result of the current law exemptions, 98 percent of all estates are not subject to the estate tax. Of the remaining two percent of taxable estates, only six thousandths of one percent are family-owned small businesses and farms.
                Democrats proposed:
                The Democratic alternative tax proposal would increase the estate tax exclusion to $4 million per married couple ($2 million per taxpayer), effective January 1, 2002. This amount would gradually increase to $5 million. The proposal would repeal the estate tax for over two-thirds of the two percent of the estates now liable for the estate tax.
                If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  Please please please do not make this thread about politics. I want to know, are you showing at indoors? Are you buying horses? Are you scaling back your winter plans?

                  I personally thought attendance at Blowing Rock and some of the other usual big summer shows was down this year. Especailly with spectators. Don't know if that has to do with the economy or not.

                  Comment


                  • Sigh, what a wonderful world it would be if all taxpayers had to pay for was bridges, military, education, and roads.

                    FYI, most people who own horse farms are counted as private individuals, not in the "farm" exclusion you refer to...as the KGB, I mean IRS takes an intense dislike to those running horse farms especially breeding operations. Don't even get me started on "inventory tax" - meaning, according to the IRS, foals born are considered "inventory" and are subject to inventory tax.

                    I had a large pony go to pony finals - sale pony - didn't sale and neither did ANY of the other ponies that went along with him. Record low prices on the ponies that did sell at the auction at pony finals and many trainers saying they aren't bringing ponies to the sale next year.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by APirateLooksAtForty View Post
                      Please please please do not make this thread about politics. I want to know, are you showing at indoors? Are you buying horses? Are you scaling back your winter plans?

                      I personally thought attendance at Blowing Rock and some of the other usual big summer shows was down this year. Especailly with spectators. Don't know if that has to do with the economy or not.
                      I think it has been slow too. I have been surprised at the few A shows I have been too in this area but thought more people were in FL or up north showing. The hay shortage was a problem last year I thought for prices, but a lot of people are moving horses between barns/trainers and several horses have gone up for sale in the last month. I am seeing some really good deals on some nice horses too. So I do think it's part of the economy.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Janet View Post
                        I would think that the point is that for many people, their "means" will change. Especially if they worked for Leahman or AIG.
                        Or Indy. Or Bear, etc. Not to mention that a lot of people who are used to getting large bonuses as part of their compensation are not going to be seeing that this year.

                        The other issue is that costs are going up exponentially, so what was affordable several months ago for some people may now be creeping out of reach. And even if an individual has managed to dodge a number of the above bullets, the people they rely on -- barn owners, farriers, vets, etc -- may very well be hit hard. I think a lot of people are going to go under. And imo, anyone who doesn't think so must have slept through or is too young to remember the mid to late 80s, when a number of big players on the circuit lost their shirts and put everything up for sale. And this round is going to be much worse.

                        I think people who single out those who allegedly "live beyond their means" as the only potential victims of this economy are in la la land. The economic landscape has completely changed, even just in the past few months. And depending on who gets elected President, people might find themselves with someone hellbent on redistributing wealth in this country. And that *will* impact the so-called elite.
                        Last edited by YankeeLawyer; Sep. 20, 2008, 10:39 AM.
                        Roseknoll Sporthorses
                        www.roseknoll.net

                        Comment


                        • YL, I agree. This movement of redistributing wealth, punishing those who produce & rewarding those who don't, the no-accountability of one's actions, the "its-not-my-fault, its someone elses" mentality, the unconditional bail-out for bad decisions is what is rotting out America.

                          The financial market is reaping directly the policy of providing the "things" that higher income people/people with some money have to people who have lower incomes/no money. In other words, the mortgage policies that allowed low income (dare I say NO income) people to purchase very nice houses (that the high income people have) is at the root of this mess. Guess what? There was a reason why those people couldn't get mortgages before. This isn't new and it didn't start with the current Bush administration. I was in my twenties (a long while back!) and watched friends buy nice houses with only maybe $5000 down and that was every last dime they had. I couldn't believe it then and it got worse as the years went by. We had a popular president bragging at state of the union addresses that home ownership was at an all time high. Then came the redevelopment bill that Bush tried to stop that forced banks to provide even more loans to low income/risky people and here we are.

                          Comment


                          • obama's charitable donations

                            From the New York Times (direct quote):

                            Although the campaign has not released the couple’s 2007 return, it has said the Obamas gave $240,000 to charity in 2007.

                            At least get your facts straight. Obama was not making "millions" from his books, if he is now, until VERY recently. The Obamas' combined income in 2006 was well under the $250,000 limit over which Obama proposes to raise anyone's taxes if elected. There are a lot of lies being thrown around here.

                            Comment


                            • kayfry - It is a FACT that was just released by the press last week, that Joe Biden made 2.6 Million dollars last year and gave just under $3,000. to charity. What a hypocrite!!!! Isn't he the one who just said "it's time to get Patriotic and pay more TAXES! Guess he doesn't practice what he preaches!

                              Comment


                              • Thought I'd contribute...

                                to the delinquency of this thread, before it gets shut down.

                                I don't think now is the time to start calling democrats socialists. This administration has just nationalized a large financial institution, at your expense. They are mapping out a plan that I fear "privatizes profits and socializes losses".

                                I have little to no sympathy for investment bankers and others who participated in the "brilliant" idea of securitizing bad mortgages, and then sold them as low risk investments, and who are now out of a job. Boo-hoo, they may not go to WEF next winter. They stuffed their pockets on these deals, and now leave the taxpayer to presumabley cover the incomprehensible cost.

                                I dont want to hear another person complain about some single mom collecting welfare ever, ever again. If you want to know where your tax money goes, look to the extravagant lifestyle of these investment bankers, because we are going to be left with that bill. Or look at the war profiteers raking in billions of taxpayer dollars.

                                Put down the kool-aid; wake up and smell the coffee.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by happyhorse3 View Post
                                  kayfry - It is a FACT that was just released by the press last week, that Joe Biden made 2.6 Million dollars last year and gave just under $3,000. to charity. What a hypocrite!!!! Isn't he the one who just said "it's time to get Patriotic and pay more TAXES! Guess he doesn't practice what he preaches!
                                  Taxes are not equal to charitable contributions. I don't understand what you're saying here.

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    Well as the OP I am going to voluntarily close the thread if it doesn't return to horses. I am so tired of politicis being shoved down my throat right now and would like to discuss something else for awhile.

                                    To say OT, is everyone who was orignally planning on going to the FL circuits still going?

                                    Comment


                                    • Here's the official warning: make it horse-related or we'll close the thread. Off-topic day was Friday.

                                      Thanks,
                                      Mod 1

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by YankeeLawyer View Post
                                        The other issue is that costs are going up exponentially, so what was affordable several months ago for some people may now be creeping out of reach. And even if an individual has managed to dodge a number of the above bullets, the people they rely on -- barn owners, farriers, vets, etc -- may very well be hit hard. I think a lot of people are going to go under. And imo, anyone who doesn't think so must have slept through or is too young to remember the mid to late 80s, when a number of big players on the circuit lost their shirts and put everything up for sale. And this round is going to be much worse.
                                        OR killed the horses for insurance money because they couldn't recoupe the actual value of the horse. That is my biggest fear now, not of course that the "sandman" will reappear but that people will be stuck with horses and not be able to afford to care for them. What is going to happen to this surplus of animals, I just cringe to think where they may end up.... Very scary times and for me, personally, taking care of the animals is obviously more important than showing but I just keep my fingers crossed I can continue to afford to care for them properly. Showing is very low on the priority list when I think of just being able to keep muliple horses and not having to sell any / all of my kiddies.

                                        Comment


                                        • Stuck at Home but Happy...

                                          Showing, or even hauling out to school, is not in my budget right now.

                                          IN FACT, I have only had sushi ONE time in the last month. I have cut all horse expenses except quality feed and vet bills (looking for a cute, single vet!!).

                                          Where else is everyone cutting expenses??
                                          Ready ~ 1999-2009 ~ you were bigger than life!
                                          Stickers ~ 1985-2011 ~ Cody's BFF
                                          I miss you both very much!

                                          Comment

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