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What color is my new pony?

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  • #21
    ^^^ what JB said.

    We really need a better full body before clipping pic. Who and what color are sire and dam?
    Draumr Hesta Farm
    "Wenn Du denkst es geht nicht mehr, kommt von irgendwo ein kleines Licht daher"
    Member of the COTH Ignorant Disrepectful F-bombs!*- 2Dogs Farm

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    • #22
      I had a full Welsh pony (a Benlea pony, in fact) that was actually that exact color, before and after clipping. I don't know if it's correct, but he was always referred to as a chestnut.

      I'd be interested to see what your pony's coat looks like in a couple weeks, when it's not so freshly clipped. My pony would go from that sooty, gray-ish color to very, very chestnut in no time at all.

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      • #23
        The third photo and the body clipped color make me think palomino. The first picture with the lighting and way it's adjusted looks 100% chestnut.

        Now, genetically - I would love to know what the pony is! Obviously very adorable.

        I had a palomino/QH and we never had shows in the winter time (for the registered palominos, not mine specifically) because they turned white/grey when clipped. Buckskins often do the same.
        Originally posted by Silverbridge
        If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

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        • Original Poster

          #24
          Originally posted by Nootka View Post
          We really need a better full body before clipping pic. Who and what color are sire and dam?
          Other than this one? http://s1084.photobucket.com/albums/...t=photo-10.jpg

          I really appreciate all the ideas thus far!

          Let's see, the breeder has her dam and sire as both being black. I don't know anything about color and genes and if that means anything. Here is one from her breeder with a summer coat: http://s1084.photobucket.com/albums/...59-400x279.jpg

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          • #25
            I know, I know! She's a "light" silver dapple bay.

            Google image search it.

            I knew a (full) Welsh pony in the '90s who was a silver dapple bay and looked JUST like your mare.

            The Silver (AKA Silver Dapple) Gene

            Silver is a dominant gene in the dilution category. (Remember, dominant means you only need one gene to get a visible effect, and dilution type genes are those that cause the color to be lightened in some way.) It is a simple dominant; there is no visual difference whether the horse has one Silver gene or two. The symbol for this gene is "Z" (nobody seems to know why that letter was chosen, but "S" would have been confusing since many colors begin with that letter, and maybe just about everything else was taken). The gene was isolated in 2006, and there is now a test for it.

            This color has been known for 30 years or more, but is only recently becoming better understood. The name Silver Dapple was originally applied to Shetland Ponies, in which the color is fairly common (at one time it was even thought that the gene only occurred in Shetlands), because it frequently has the extremely dappled, greyish body color with silver-white mane and tail in that breed. Now we know that not all (possibly, not even most) of them are dappled, so the name has been shortened from Silver Dapple to just Silver. The term "Silver" has been confusing to some, who expect to see a grey-toned horse perhaps, but it has been in use too long to change. In Australia the color is called "Taffy", but the term has never caught on elsewhere. In some of the breeds in which Silver is common in the USA, such as the Rocky Mountain Horse, it is simply called "Chocolate".

            The Silver gene is interesting because, unlike other dilution genes such as Champagne and Dun, this one is what's called pigment-specific. Silver dilutes only black pigment. Thus, the Silver gene can be carried and "hidden" by a chestnut horse (since it has no black pigment to be diluted), and in this way it can appear to skip generations, even though, like any dominant gene, one parent must have the gene in order for the foal to have it.

            How It Works

            When a horse gets the Z gene, any black pigment will be diluted to a chocolate-brown, ranging in shade from taupe or "dead grass" color through mocha-brown to deep chocolate brown, often with a bluish cast. It can be hard to tell apart from a dark liver chestnut, but usually the dark chestnut will have reddish undertones and the Silver will not. The gene tends to dilute the mane/tail much more strongly than the body, often to a silvery-white color, although this can vary and they may darken with age. Silvers often have a distinct "face mask" of darker hair which is helpful in identifying them. This "mask" generally covers the forehead, around the eyes, and down the front of the nose. They also tend to have lighter hair on the lower legs, lightest close to the hooves. Foals often have hooves with a very strong and distinct striping pattern, and white eyelashes. These traits are helpful for identifying Silver in foals, but are gradually outgrown.

            Silver on Black

            Silver on a black base color is the shade that comes to mind first when hearing the term "Silver Dapple". The body color is diluted to a chocolate-brown or mocha-brown shade, sometimes light enough to appear similar to a sooty palomino. The mane and tail are often near-white, a striking contrast. The lower legs are usually lighter than the rest, almost flaxen near the hoof, and the lower legs are often dappled (which is highly unusual in other colors). The mane and tail often have dark roots. In a horse with the "classic expression" of Silver Dapple, there will be very distinct and strong dappling present, which, unlike most colors, does not appear to be related to age or condition, but rather stays fairly constant throughout the horse's life -- although they may vary with the seasons, appearing on the summer coat but not the winter coat, usually. But not all Silvers show the dappling. Some are a flat chocolate-brown color all year round. Silver on black can be hard to tell apart from a dark flaxen liver chestnut, and in most breeds they have indeed been registered as "chestnut" because nobody knew what they were. Some clues to look for would be the dappling, a drastic change in color from winter to summer, a bluish cast rather than a reddish tone, and a silvery mane/tail rather than golden-hued flaxen. Still, it may be impossible to tell the difference by looking. Thankfully, there are now genetic tests that will tell for sure. The normal name for this color is "Black Silver", but sometimes you might see them called "Classic Silver Dapple", "Chocolate Silver", "Chocolate", or just "Silver".

            Silver on Bay

            The Silver gene acting on a bay base color gives a quite different effect. The red pigment on the body is unaffected, while the black on the legs is slightly diluted and the black of the mane/tail is more strongly diluted. This gives the appearance of a horse that is not quite bay, and not quite chestnut either. Most of the time they end up being registered as chestnut, which can cause confusion, but most registries have no separate category for Silver. The mane and tail can vary from a platinum blonde, to a flaxen color, to just slightly diluted, and can darken considerably with age, making identification more difficult. Usually the legs are the main clue that the horse is not a chestnut -- they will be much darker than a chestnut, ranging from near-black to chocolate-brown, generally with lighter hair close to the hooves. And again, when in doubt, testing will distinguish them from chestnuts. The most usual term for this color is "Bay Silver", but occasionally they are called "Red Silver" (reflecting the reddish body color), however, this is rather discouraged since to many people the term "red" means chestnut, and therefore "red silver" could cause confusion to those thinking that it means silver on chestnut.

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            • #26
              Also (re: light silver dapple bay): the picture of the RMH with the flaxen mane on this page: http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/ecg_basics2.html.

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              • #27
                I see a sorrel pony. Similar to the colour of a Belgian draft horse.

                Two blacks could make a chestnut/sorrel.
                Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by LulaBell View Post
                  Other than this one? http://s1084.photobucket.com/albums/...t=photo-10.jpg

                  I really appreciate all the ideas thus far!

                  Let's see, the breeder has her dam and sire as both being black. I don't know anything about color and genes and if that means anything. Here is one from her breeder with a summer coat: http://s1084.photobucket.com/albums/...59-400x279.jpg
                  Very, very clearly chestnut with flaxen, with the flaxen doing what it does most of the time - darken with age
                  Originally posted by Winston the Corgi View Post
                  I know, I know! She's a "light" silver dapple bay.

                  Google image search it.

                  I knew a (full) Welsh pony in the '90s who was a silver dapple bay and looked JUST like your mare.
                  Not Silver, sorry.

                  The legs are all wrong and very much red-based.

                  Here's a silver bay who is looking closer to chestnut than to bay. See how the legs very clearly point to something other than red-based
                  http://www.whinny4me.com/Sunny/Sunny...%20smaller.jpg
                  ______________________________
                  The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                  • #29
                    If the parents really are black, no agouti so no bay of any variety (including silver).

                    back x black = chestnut is common/possible and actually happened a whole bunch with quarter horses in certain lines
                    ~Veronica
                    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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                    • #30
                      It has nothing to do with "quarter horses in certain lines" and everything to do with genetics.

                      2 black horses making a chestnut means both black parents are Eeaa. This gives a 25% chance of a chestnut eeaa each breeding, as each parent contributes the e.

                      If either parent contributed their E, the horse would be black (in this case). So, 75% of the time the horse would be black - EE, Ee, or eE (with the last 2 being the same, but just denotes a different parental contribution).

                      This is the same for all breeds - not relegated to the QH
                      ______________________________
                      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                      • #31
                        Originally posted by JB View Post
                        It has nothing to do with "quarter horses in certain lines" and everything to do with genetics.

                        2 black horses making a chestnut means both black parents are Eeaa. This gives a 25% chance of a chestnut eeaa each breeding, as each parent contributes the e.

                        If either parent contributed their E, the horse would be black (in this case). So, 75% of the time the horse would be black - EE, Ee, or eE (with the last 2 being the same, but just denotes a different parental contribution).

                        This is the same for all breeds - not relegated to the QH

                        Yes, I realize that color genetics are not different (in that sense) in quarter horses and other breeds. I actually know something about color genetics, although I don't post much on the breeding forum or engage in those discussions because I just don't find it that interesting.

                        I only added the anecdote about quarter horses because for a while there were a lot of very very popular chestnut stallions and whole slew of chestnut mares with no agouti-- and so there was a period (maybe still now) where bay was a whole lot less common than in other breeds (than say TBs where there seems to be a whole lot of agouti) and when you got a black based coat it was black and not bay. And blacks don't have agouti to pass on (chestnuts can but it's not expressed). I was trying to simply explain why chestnut from two blacks is not so unsual and why, if the parents are truly black, this horse cannot be bay (there was no parent to pass on agouti to make her bay). People who immediately think of breeds with loads of agouti tend not to think of that, because there's so much bay around and less black.
                        ~Veronica
                        "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                        http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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                        • #32
                          I gotcha - it just came out sounding a whole lot different
                          ______________________________
                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances. - ET

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                          • #33
                            Looks chestnut to me.
                            Post clipped coloring is not a good time to judge color.

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                            • #34
                              Sorrel. Very cute! (clipping can do funny things to colors)
                              Originally posted by rustbreeches
                              [George Morris] doesn't always drink beer, but when he does, he prefers Dos Equis

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                              • #35
                                Chestnut rabicano with a flaxen mane and tail from what I can see... Freaking cute all around!
                                Southern Cross Guest Ranch
                                An All Inclusive Guest Ranch Vacation - Georgia

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                                • #36
                                  One of those really rare chestnuts that looks nice when body clipped. Very cute either way!
                                  "On the back of a horse I felt whole, complete, connected to that vital place in the center of me...and the chaos within me found balance."

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                                  • #37
                                    Sorrel
                                    ...for there are wings on these hooves, the speed and power of foam-capped waves...
                                    *~v~*~v~*~v~*~v~*~v~*~v~*~v~*
                                    Proud member of the artists clique

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                                    • #38
                                      i had a buckskin that was steel grey when clipped!

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                                      • #39
                                        We have a pony that exact color. She could be your pony's twin. I just like to call her pink

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                                        • #40
                                          I say she looks the same color as a Halfie....and I'll also say she's a chocolate chestnut with flaxen mane and tail. I have seen a few ponies this color! It's soooo cute!

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