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WIHS: Who's signing as trainer?

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  • #41
    The trainers announced at medal finals are not from the entry blanks. They ask for trainer names as the kids go into the ring for the awards. One has nothing to do with the other.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by Molly99 View Post
      The trainers announced at medal finals are not from the entry blanks. They ask for trainer names as the kids go into the ring for the awards. One has nothing to do with the other.
      And noting how many people *were* credited with training a couple of those kids... it seems odd that the name on the entry blank didn't get mentioned. It's not labeled "head groom."
      If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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      • #43
        Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post
        Heritage certainly has enough trainers to find one to sign entry blanks.... A groom signing as trainer is absurd and anyone who can find a valid reason for this scenario is being disingenuous.
        As one of Heritage's trainers, I can assure you Gerado is no mere groom, nor was this a decision that was taken lightly. Lawyers read the description in the USEF rule book, and after much discussion and many meetings, it was determined that of all the staff at Heritage, Gerado was the one who knew at all times what medications each horse was getting and how it was being administered, from sedatives for clipping, shoeing, and vet work, to antibiotics or allergy meds, to show medication. He has been an employee of Heritage for more than 15 years and is not by any means micro-managed and makes many decisions that the trainers may no nothing of.

        If he does not go to a show, which is a rare, then whoever is in charge of the horses for that show appears on the entry, such as Eleanor Kunsman for Pony Finals, or myself for Derby Finals and the winter shows in New York.

        Do not confuse our choice with barns who put a trainer or groom who never leave the farm and would be unaffected by a suspension down as trainer. Not having Gerado able to go to shows would be just as detrimental as not having Andre or Patricia! This is not an attempt to beat the rules, but rather to follow them more true to how it is worded in the rule book.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by Piggiejump View Post
          As one of Heritage's trainers, I can assure you Gerado is no mere groom, nor was this a decision that was taken lightly. Lawyers read the description in the USEF rule book, and after much discussion and many meetings, it was determined that of all the staff at Heritage, Gerado was the one who knew at all times what medications each horse was getting and how it was being administered, from sedatives for clipping, shoeing, and vet work, to antibiotics or allergy meds, to show medication. He has been an employee of Heritage for more than 15 years and is not by any means micro-managed and makes many decisions that the trainers may no nothing of.
          Gerardo sounds like a great stable manager/road manager. He qualifies per USEF as the person to be listed as the "ultimate party responsible" for each horse at your farm. I think it is unfortunate, however, that the "trainers" do not know of decisions he may make concerning medications, supplements or whatever. As a trainer myself, I want to know and coordinate everything; feeding, shoeing, medications, work schedules, turn-out, shows, riders, bits, tack, etc. Every single bit of that is "training."

          I personally think the USEF needs a new classification.
          ******
          "A good horse and a good rider are only so in mutual trust."
          -H.M.E.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by Piggiejump View Post

            ....
            Gerado was the one who knew at all times what medications each horse was getting and how it was being administered....

            .... makes many decisions that the trainers may no [sic] nothing of.

            WOWSERS! So you are saying that Gerado decides which horse/pony gets Bute v. Banamine and which ones get Methocarbimol (sp) each night? He decides how long before a show a horse can be tranq'd to get clipped?

            Does he make the decision which horse wears a Back on Track blanket and which horse has its feet packed at night?

            Does he know what Capsaicin is and can he make the decision to use to medication that contains it?

            Is he REALLY the person at Heritage who decides what medications to give to each horse? Or does he (as most grooms/road managers) merely administer what he is told to?

            I read the rule as to mean that the TRAINER, as the person in charge, as the one who makes the decisions, is the one who is ultimately liable for a positive drug test.

            Having Heritage's lawyer involved makes takes the smell test one step further. The attorney is paid to determine how he can best protect his clients from liability under the letter of the law. His job is to place a layer of immunity between Andre and Patricia.

            And the last statement is the most outrageous of all. If Andre were to be set down for a year, the barn would still be fine because Gerardo is still going to the shows...

            I am sorry, but this doesn't pass the smell test.
            "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

            Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

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            • #46
              Thank you very much for clarifying Piggiejump! It is always nice to hear straight from the source! I was one of the ones that found it odd to suddenly not see Andre's name listed as trainer, so I appreciate you taking the time to post.

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post
                WOWSERS! So you are saying that Gerado decides which horse/pony gets Bute v. Banamine and which ones get Methocarbimol (sp) each night? He decides how long before a show a horse can be tranq'd to get clipped?

                Does he make the decision which horse wears a Back on Track blanket and which horse has its feet packed at night?

                Does he know what Capsaicin is and can he make the decision to use to medication that contains it?

                Is he REALLY the person at Heritage who decides what medications to give to each horse? Or does he (as most grooms/road managers) merely administer what he is told to?

                I read the rule as to mean that the TRAINER, as the person in charge, as the one who makes the decisions, is the one who is ultimately liable for a positive drug test.

                Having Heritage's lawyer involved makes takes the smell test one step further. The attorney is paid to determine how he can best protect his clients from liability under the letter of the law. His job is to place a layer of immunity between Andre and Patricia.

                And the last statement is the most outrageous of all. If Andre were to be set down for a year, the barn would still be fine because Gerardo is still going to the shows...

                I am sorry, but this doesn't pass the smell test.
                Read the rule again.
                It says nothing about the trainer being the person in charge, or the person who makes the decisions.
                It's who has care and custody.
                If Heritage says he's the one who is responsible that's good enough for USEF.

                "Any adult, or adults who has the responsibility for the care, training, custody or performance of a horse"

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                • #48
                  It seems a shame, then, that when Heritage Farm's riders were announced in the top ten at WIHS finals, that his name was not mentioned. I am certain that oversight will be corrected next year.
                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Piggiejump View Post
                    As one of Heritage's trainers, I can assure you Gerado is no mere groom, nor was this a decision that was taken lightly. Lawyers read the description in the USEF rule book, and after much discussion and many meetings, it was determined that of all the staff at Heritage, Gerado was the one who knew at all times what medications each horse was getting and how it was being administered, from sedatives for clipping, shoeing, and vet work, to antibiotics or allergy meds, to show medication. He has been an employee of Heritage for more than 15 years and is not by any means micro-managed and makes many decisions that the trainers may no nothing of.

                    If he does not go to a show, which is a rare, then whoever is in charge of the horses for that show appears on the entry, such as Eleanor Kunsman for Pony Finals, or myself for Derby Finals and the winter shows in New York.

                    Do not confuse our choice with barns who put a trainer or groom who never leave the farm and would be unaffected by a suspension down as trainer. Not having Gerado able to go to shows would be just as detrimental as not having Andre or Patricia! This is not an attempt to beat the rules, but rather to follow them more true to how it is worded in the rule book.
                    What happens if sufficient illegal medications are found in one of the Heritage horses to trigger a suspension? Does everyone sit at home, waiting for Gerado's suspension to end? Because, according to the rule, a suspended trainer can't send their horses to a show with someone else (from the USEF suspension list page: "Any horse or horses, completely or in part owned, leased or of any partnership, corporation or stable of such person, or shown in any name or for his or her credit or reputation, whether such interest was held at the time of the alleged violation or acquired thereafter, are barred from taking any part whatsoever in any Licensed Competition and are excluded from all show grounds during Licensed Competitions.")
                    The Evil Chem Prof

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by Peggy View Post
                      What happens if sufficient illegal medications are found in one of the Heritage horses to trigger a suspension? Does everyone sit at home, waiting for Gerado's suspension to end? Because, according to the rule, a suspended trainer can't send their horses to a show with someone else (from the USEF suspension list page: "Any horse or horses, completely or in part owned, leased or of any partnership, corporation or stable of such person, or shown in any name or for his or her credit or reputation, whether such interest was held at the time of the alleged violation or acquired thereafter, are barred from taking any part whatsoever in any Licensed Competition and are excluded from all show grounds during Licensed Competitions.")
                      And there's the rub. How many of Heritage Farm's horses are owned "completely or in part" by Gerado? How many of Heritage Farm's horses are shown for his "credit or reputation"? Not any of the horses in the Medal final apparently, since he wasn't named as a trainer when it was time to give credit.

                      Seems like the attorneys have found a way to abide by the letter of the law while neatly sidestepping the intent.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Were a suspension to occur, life at Heritage would go on, just as it would were Patricia or Andre named on the entry. However, the goal is not have a suspension.

                        Yes, Gerado can make all the decisions named above. And while bigger decisions(such as switching a horse from bute to banamine) usually include a discussion, he is certainly trusted with making that switching properly.

                        As far as having his name announced at the finals, the award coordinators ask for the trainers' names. When they ask for the "person responsible for the care of the horse" we will tell them G. And whenever he has had time to join us for the awards photo(most recently at USET finals when Sam Schaefer won) we always enjoy having him there! But usually, his man concern is getting the horses loaded and packed up.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post
                          WOWSERS! So you are saying that Gerado decides which horse/pony gets Bute v. Banamine and which ones get Methocarbimol (sp) each night? He decides how long before a show a horse can be tranq'd to get clipped?

                          Does he make the decision which horse wears a Back on Track blanket and which horse has its feet packed at night?

                          Does he know what Capsaicin is and can he make the decision to use to medication that contains it?

                          Is he REALLY the person at Heritage who decides what medications to give to each horse? Or does he (as most grooms/road managers) merely administer what he is told to?

                          I read the rule as to mean that the TRAINER, as the person in charge, as the one who makes the decisions, is the one who is ultimately liable for a positive drug test.

                          Having Heritage's lawyer involved makes takes the smell test one step further. The attorney is paid to determine how he can best protect his clients from liability under the letter of the law. His job is to place a layer of immunity between Andre and Patricia.

                          And the last statement is the most outrageous of all. If Andre were to be set down for a year, the barn would still be fine because Gerardo is still going to the shows...

                          I am sorry, but this doesn't pass the smell test.
                          Why it is so hard to believe that he is capable of making these decisions? Because he doesn't ride or train? Because his name indicates his Mexican heritage? Believe me, he knows more about horses than many Americans, and he is trusted immensely.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by Piggiejump View Post
                            Why it is so hard to believe that he is capable of making these decisions? Because he doesn't ride or train? Because his name indicates his Mexican heritage? Believe me, he knows more about horses than many Americans, and he is trusted immensely.
                            This response supplied by the lawyer, as well? An awfully perfect response, diverting attention away from the real question. I think that technique has a name No doubt he is trusted immensely.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Originally posted by Piggiejump View Post
                              Why it is so hard to believe that he is capable of making these decisions? Because he doesn't ride or train? Because his name indicates his Mexican heritage? Believe me, he knows more about horses than many Americans, and he is trusted immensely.
                              Wow. I can't believe you insinuated what you did. The Mexicans are some of the strongest riders in the world and have been for many years. Ever heard of Jaime Ascarraga? (Or the rest of the Mexican Olympic team?) Also, Gerardo's name (which you did not even spell correctly in your first post) does not indicate Mexican heritage, it only indicates Latino heritage. Believe it or not, just because a person has a Latin name does not make them necessarily from Mexico. Spanish is the number two most spoken language in the world after Chinese, fyi.

                              I would never want to be a part of a program with this kind of lack of education and tact.
                              ******
                              "A good horse and a good rider are only so in mutual trust."
                              -H.M.E.

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                              • #55
                                Horseymama, I think the point being made was directed at Lord Helpus and questioning whether she believed that. As PiggieJump is one of the trainers at Heritage, I highly doubt she would insult Gerardo. Maybe he is from Mexico or of Mexican descent. I don't know since I don't know him!

                                Also, the misspelling was probably a typo.
                                Last edited by supershorty628; Oct. 31, 2012, 12:48 AM. Reason: Fixing something courtesy of Renn/aissance :)
                                http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
                                Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

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                                • #56
                                  Lordy is female, I'll let her bring her own background into this if she wants, and I'm passing the popcorn...
                                  "I'm not always sarcastic. Sometimes I'm asleep." - Harry Dresden

                                  Amy's Stuff - Rustic chic and country linens and decor
                                  Support my mom! She's gotta finance her retirement horse somehow.

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                                  • #57
                                    When I read that the gentleman who is signing off on the horses has been an "employee for 15 years" it just makes me wonder why the "employers" are not taking responsibility. The buck should stop at the top.

                                    I think we all know that this is a legal manuever and, no matter how you try to justify it, it doesn't shed a good light on the farms that use it.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by Horseymama View Post
                                      Wow. I can't believe you insinuated what you did. The Mexicans are some of the strongest riders in the world and have been for many years. Ever heard of Jaime Ascarraga? (Or the rest of the Mexican Olympic team?) Also, Gerardo's name (which you did not even spell correctly in your first post) does not indicate Mexican heritage, it only indicates Latino heritage. Believe it or not, just because a person has a Latin name does not make them necessarily from Mexico. Spanish is the number two most spoken language in the world after Chinese, fyi.

                                      I would never want to be a part of a program with this kind of lack of education and tact.
                                      I don't think she was implying that at all, if anything i think she was instinctively defending him because of what she thought others might think going off just Gerardo's name. No need to attack Piggiejump for coming on and trying to explain her barn's position. We're probably pretty lucky she did because how often do we get real feed back from the many contentious topics that pop up here on COTH?

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by Piggiejump View Post
                                        Why it is so hard to believe that he is capable of making these decisions? Because he doesn't ride or train? Because his name indicates his Mexican heritage? Believe me, he knows more about horses than many Americans, and he is trusted immensely.
                                        I'm sure he's fabulous. In fact, I'm certain that he's just as essential as you say and that he should get far more credit for the success of Heritage Farms and its students.

                                        If he signs as trainer, why isn't he announced as a trainer when Heritage students top 10 at a medal final? He should, in fact, be the first name announced. It's quite a striking omission.
                                        If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          It sounds to me like a lot of people just don't like the way the USEF has defined "trainer" for purposes of the entry blank. It's a broad definition that could be numerous people for a big barn. It's not necessarily defined as "the top brass with whom the buck stops" or "the big name person who most financially benefits from the running of the operation." The care, custody, and control definition really does fit the head barn manager/show groom at some show barns. And in some cases (people who meet up with their trainer at shows) it doesn't fit the actual trainer. Maybe the person responsible OUGHT to be the top brass, famous person-- but that sounds like it's ripe for a USEF rule change and not a thread being upset at barns that are applying the rule as written.
                                          ~Veronica
                                          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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