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WIHS: Who's signing as trainer?

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  • #21
    Originally posted by DoubleTwistedWire View Post
    Having the horse's owner sign as Trainer seems a whole 'nother ball of wax from having a random groom/BM/assistant/whatever sign as Trainer. The owner at least is ultimately the responsible party for the training, riding, care, custody, and control, because they've chosen who to pay to do those things for them/their horse. I don't have an issue with that at all, and I sign as Trainer for mine, because they're ultimately my responsibility.
    Unless the owner is a worker at the barn then the owner is NOT the person who has care, custody, control or responsibility for performance.

    In some cases a horse may be boarded at a farm where the person responsible under the rule is not a USEF member. In that case the owner would need to sign as trainer and accept responsibility for drug/medication violations because the trainer needs to be a USEF member.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by S A McKee View Post
      Unless the owner is a worker at the barn then the owner is NOT the person who has care, custody, control or responsibility for performance.

      In some cases a horse may be boarded at a farm where the person responsible under the rule is not a USEF member. In that case the owner would need to sign as trainer and accept responsibility for drug/medication violations because the trainer needs to be a USEF member.
      YOu seem to be assuming that all horses are "boarded".

      My horses live at home. I AM the USEF defined "Trainer" even though I take lessons form others.
      Janet

      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by S A McKee View Post
        And the USEF Hearing Committee placing blame on a non signer is a very rare situation.
        Yes, it is definitely unusual. That is why I noticed it.
        Janet

        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by S A McKee View Post
          Sorry but placement of punctuation has a great deal to do with the meaning of a phrase.
          And the USEF Hearing Committee placing blame on a non signer is a very rare situation.

          Once more, the person riding the horse may not be the person who has responsibility for the horse under USEF rules.
          Simply riding the horse at a show means nothing as far as liability for drug infractions. Do not confuse the USEF rule with the FEI rule where the rider is the 'person responsible'.
          Many horses do not board with the person who is riding them.

          Signing as Coach prevents that person from taking any responsibility under the drug/medication rules. It simply means they are acting in some way as a trainer of the horse or rider but do not have any physical control over the horse.

          USEF definition of coach:

          "GR108 Coach .
          For purposes of these rules, a coach is defined as any adult or adults who receives remuneration for having or sharing the responsibility for instructing, teaching, schooling, or advising a rider, driver, handler or vaulter in equestrian skills."
          Once again, I am not confusing the USEF's definition of the term trainer and the term coach. It is a very important and very necessary distinction for the reasons Janet and others (myself included) have outlined. A lot of horses are not boarded with "trainers"* that ride them or prepare their riders for the ring.

          That being said, I raise my eyebrows at the idea that a groom or barn manager employed by a trainer should sign for a trainer. Yes, these people are ADMINISTERING medications, but they are doing it at the direction of their bosses. Anyone with eyeballs can walk down the aisle and see that the meds lists are written every night by the person in charge and followed by the staff. If an owner is taking advice from the groom or barn manager about their horses medication regimen, then by all means, that is the person who should be signing as trainer. I just don't think this is the case most of the time. I guess it happens in some setups?


          *quotes to designate difference from USEF definition of the term.
          Here today, gone tomorrow...

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          • #25
            Can the OP please tell me who is listed as the trainer for Sirius Black.
            Janet

            chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by Sing Mia Song View Post
              . . .
              Gerardo Escalara is listed as trainer for Heritage's entries.
              So if Lillie Keenan had won the Medal at Harrisburg, instead of finishing second, would Mr. Escalara have been credited with the trainer's award for her win, and had his picture taken during the awards ceremony with her?

              If anybody in the barn can sign as trainer, what's the point? We all know its not the grooms or the BM who is making the medication decisions, they are just carrying out orders from above.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by BAC View Post
                So if Lillie Keenan had won the Medal at Harrisburg, instead of finishing second, would Mr. Escalara have been credited with the trainer's award for her win, and had his picture taken during the awards ceremony with her?
                I'm assuming this designation goes to whomever signs the entry blank under the "coach" role.
                Here today, gone tomorrow...

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by DoubleTwistedWire View Post
                  Having the horse's owner sign as Trainer seems a whole 'nother ball of wax from having a random groom/BM/assistant/whatever sign as Trainer. The owner at least is ultimately the responsible party for the training, riding, care, custody, and control, because they've chosen who to pay to do those things for them/their horse. I don't have an issue with that at all, and I sign as Trainer for mine, because they're ultimately my responsibility.

                  I do find it rather interesting, and honestly, I would be somewhere between "unhappy" and "suspicious" if my horse were one of those whose Trainer was someone other than the trainer. Which is probably why mine isn't in any of those programs
                  I agree with the above thoughts. The Owner(Lessee) and Rider bring the horse to the ring to show - THEY are responsible for the horse. Title the signature any way you choose - the owner (or person leasing the horse) decides the Trainer, Groom, Stable Manager, or whoever is in charge of the horse. The Rider brings the horse into the ring. Both are the responsible parties.
                  http://STA551.com
                  845-363-1875

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by FrenchFrytheEqHorse View Post
                    I'm assuming this designation goes to whomever signs the entry blank under the "coach" role.
                    I haven't ridden in a horse show since the dark ages, and didn't realize that.

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      NM

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                      • Original Poster

                        #31
                        Originally posted by Janet View Post
                        Can the OP please tell me who is listed as the trainer for Sirius Black.
                        Here is the trainer report for Sirius Black:

                        Gerardo Escalara Trainer Report

                        As you can see, it includes many people, including Lillie Keenan, who are clients of Heritage.

                        I don't recall ever seeing Andre's name in the violations list, and I hope not to. I'm pretty fascinated, though, to see that horses owned and/or ridden by Scott Stewart (who presumably signed te entry blank in those spaces, as required), has Peggy Gehman listed as "trainer."

                        Peggy Gehman Trainer Report
                        Life would be infinitely better if pinatas suddenly appeared throughout the day.

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                        • #32
                          How did you get the report SingMiaSong? I've always found that results database rather unfriendly to search on.

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                          • Original Poster

                            #33
                            Originally posted by Janeway View Post
                            How did you get the report SingMiaSong? I've always found that results database rather unfriendly to search on.
                            Go to Orders of Go and scroll to the bottom. You'll see a place where you can enter a back number, then click on trainers report (which will bring up every horse/rider entered for the trainer listed in red bleow the classes they are entered in). If you aren't sure what number to put in, open the order of go for any class and pick a number from the entries. Then enter that in the box at the bottom of the page and proceed as described above.
                            Life would be infinitely better if pinatas suddenly appeared throughout the day.

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Seems silly that we are parsing language as a way to discuss a substantive issue here.... so here goes.

                              Under the letter of the rules, it is entirely possible for a groom or someone other than the "true" trainer to sign as trainer. Its allowed. However, allowed is not the same a moral or ethical.

                              There are times when it is entirely logical for a "true" trainer NOT to sign as trainer. Clients who are doing self-care are generally doing their own feeding, administering of meds and supplements. There is no reason that a "true" trainer should take responsibility for mistakes or decisions that these self-care clients make over which the "true" trainer has no control. There are variations of this scenario that muddy the waters but let's no visit those here.

                              There are the times when the "true" trainer directs all feed, meds and supplements and has a groom or someone else who is simply following their directions sign. It may meet the technical requirement of the rules .... but it is not meeting the spirit.

                              Simply said -- ethics and morality ask more than technical compliance.

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Gerardo Escalara also signed as trainer for the Heritage Team at The Hampton Classic as well

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  I am an amateur owner and I sign as trainer because I am the one ultimately responsible for my horse, who has not been boarded with the person I train with for some time. It's also more convenient when filling out the forms.

                                  But I am also the person deciding what the horse is fed and what medications she gets.

                                  If the person who is signing as 'trainer' is doing because that person is 'expendable' if there's an, ahem, problem, that's flat out unethical. I don't know these barns and I don't know the names of the people signing; perhaps they are key barn manager types and the trainer either wasn't available to sign entries or is not in the barn on a day to day basis and doesn't oversee barn management.

                                  I am glad to hear that the Hearing Committee considers appropriateness beyond who signs the forms.
                                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    Originally posted by Janet View Post
                                    YOu seem to be assuming that all horses are "boarded".

                                    My horses live at home. I AM the USEF defined "Trainer" even though I take lessons form others.
                                    Not at all.
                                    But you seem to be assuming that high level horses showing at 'indoors' live in their owners back yards. LMAO

                                    Simply not the case.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      Originally posted by STA View Post
                                      I agree with the above thoughts. The Owner(Lessee) and Rider bring the horse to the ring to show - THEY are responsible for the horse. Title the signature any way you choose - the owner (or person leasing the horse) decides the Trainer, Groom, Stable Manager, or whoever is in charge of the horse. The Rider brings the horse into the ring. Both are the responsible parties.
                                      Now you're just making it up.
                                      The Rider is NOT the responsible person under USEF rules for drug/medication violations.
                                      The Owner is NOT the responsible person under USEF rules for drug/medication violations. And for good reason. The Owner usually isn't the person feeding the horse. The Owner boards a horse at a farm. They have no control over who the farm hires as groom or stable manager or who feeds the horse or turns it out or who does daily grooming. Often the Owner does not sign the entry blank. The trainer signs as agent. Sometimes the Owner isn't at the show.

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by FrenchFrytheEqHorse View Post
                                        I'm assuming this designation goes to whomever signs the entry blank under the "coach" role.
                                        If the horse is in training with the trainer and boards at the trainer's barn, then there is no signature needed in the "Coach" space.

                                        The only reason for having a "coach" at the show is to differentiate responsibility for a horse who is under the full cc&c of the person who trains the horse v. a horse who has one person who takes care of the horse and just uses the trainer for lessons. Then the latter person is the coach and the trainer is (usually) the owner/lessee.

                                        Heritage certainly has enough trainers to find one to sign entry blanks.... A groom signing as trainer is absurd and anyone who can find a valid reason for this scenario is being disingenuous.

                                        In the Jane Clark/Bruce Burr instance, Bruce took the fall for cocaine in the horse's system, but Jane knew who the person responsible was, and he is no longer training/riding her horses. It is the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law.
                                        "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

                                        Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          As far as I can tell there's no obligation to get a signature in the coach spot and that it's pretty meaningless, at least for the purposes of eventing and dressage. I can see why it might be meaningful to have a signature there for equitation medal finals.
                                          If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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