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Independent photographers at horse shows ... "legal matters"

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  • #81
    Originally posted by Bogie View Post
    What do you think a show would do if someone started giving food away out of the back of their car, competing with the concession who paid for their spot? Would that be okay, too? Maybe you are giving the food away because you want to start a catering business. Just because you aren't charging for food doesn't make your business intentions less real.
    Yeah, but if shows made it mandatory that you buy all of your food from their concessions, people would have a meltdown.
    "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
    -George Morris

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    • #82
      Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
      Yeah, but if shows made it mandatory that you buy all of your food from their concessions, people would have a meltdown.
      I think people would understand if they could not SELL food at a show venue without prior clearance from management. That's different than saying people can't bring their own food to share/eat without selling it.
      ~Veronica
      "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
      http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

      Comment


      • #83
        Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
        I think people would understand if they could not SELL food at a show venue without prior clearance from management. That's different than saying people can't bring their own food to share/eat without selling it.
        Definitely agree. Just like I agree that the "official" photographer that paid the vendor fee should be the only photographer selling photos on the show grounds.

        I take issue with the idea that said photographer can harass everyone on the grounds with a camera. If I want to take pictures of me and everyone else, I will (I won't actually, because I don't even own a camera, but anyway...). As long as I don't sell them, it's none of anybody's business.
        "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
        -George Morris

        Comment


        • #84
          I don't think it's appropriate for the official show photog to go around harassing people. I never supported that! But the OP wasn't acting appropriately if she was a budding pro photographer taking photos at the show that she would then use on her site advertising photo sales. And that's what she was doing (she's now backtracked and decided she'll never sell photos-- but at the time she was taking them, that was what her website indicated). The official show photographer shouldn't have bitched at her-- but the OP shouldn't have been doing what she was doing in the first place.
          ~Veronica
          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

          Comment


          • #85
            Hunter Jumper Independent photographers

            To all of you who have taken this issue and extrapolated to a lot of issues that ARE NOT issues...Nobody cares who TAKES photos at a show.That is not, nor has it EVER been the issue. We are the first to answer questions and give advice to anyone who asks. The issue is with PHOTOGRAPHERS who come to a show and randomly shoot everyone ( until they realize that this is not easy work) and then go off to do whatever they would do at a show if they weren't working there.This OP is what we get to deal with at every show...and her ( he?) disingenuous response when asked who they are shooting for. I assure you we have heard every combination of reasons that people are shooting everybody..I'm sure you can imagine the tales...But in the end, we almost ALWAYS find that the person who stands next to me and shoots their "friends"( or avoids us and thinks we don't know what is happening around us) will have those photos on a website or FB or somewhere and will be offering those photos or their paid for services BEFORE we get home from an average 16 hour day at the show. We don't think we are "entitled" to anything other than respect..for the work we do and the time and efforts expended in trying to offer exhibitors the opportunity to have photos of their horses. If you want to be a horse photographer, go for it...If you a
            have any talent at all ( AND you have a work ethic) we'll probably be happy to offer you a job. If you are "Just taking photos of your barn mates", knock yourself out. But if you think that lying to management and the photographer is the beginning of the road to success I suggest you check your GPS...You're on the wrong path. Our shows are VERY supportive of us in our efforts to control the "scab effect"...and they are so because they value our services to their exhibitors and to their efforts to support and thank their sponsors with great photos. Take all the photos you want, but be respectful of those in our community who work very hard to make your show experience what you expect of it.
            In our case, very little of our income is dependent on random sales of photos to exhibitors..I don't really know how any photographer can rationalize the time and $$$ outlay for such efforts...but if you want to have great photos available when you go to a show, support the photographer..You will soon see fewer of them at shows and then all of you will be on the next thread..."Where have all the photographers gone???"..Just Saying...BTW...There is no difference between selling such photos and "distributing" those photos. Our history is that those who are distributing their photos are HOPING they will turn into sales. I know of only a few young kids who take a lot of photos and tag the riders...but they are truly not interested in anything but doing something they enjoy and sharing with "friends"..whatever that means in a FB world that allows me 3300+ "friends". I often wonder who the 3000+ I don't "know" are. Again, I am the first to comment on their photos and offer help...or a job.
            Last edited by ponypix; Oct. 29, 2012, 02:37 PM. Reason: add on

            Comment


            • #86
              We have a free market system and there's no reason for a pro photographer to get upset because someone else is taking photographs. Yes, it might make their job harder because people aren't going to buy mediocre pictures anymore. That's life. If someone else is following the letter of the rules (no advertising and no selling) then you can petition to change the rules or just up your game.

              There are lots of suggestions on here to help modernize the business model. My addition is that I hate how hard some photographer's websites are to navigate. I don't want to sort through the 100000 photographs you took that day. I want to be able to click a little blue link with my show number or my horse's name on it and just see those. I'm always surprised when it's difficult to view all of the shots of my horse (after the show).

              I don't care how many hours you are working at the show or how much effort you put into it. I buy great pictures. That's it. My family gets some great shots of me, but the pro photographers have the better lenses and best angle (sometimes!). I LOVE the cross-country shots I get

              Comment


              • #87
                Hunter Jumper Independent photographers

                A quick response Re navigating web sites...Although most photographers have opted to sort photos by exhibitor name and/or number, we experimented and did so for the 12 weeks of WEF last year...It did not help and it cost an additional $8000. to do so, That process might work for those who shoot the same 3 photos of each exhibitor and the sorting is easy ( You'll note that most of them print EVERY photo..blanks and "bloopers" included..to the dismay of some exhibitors).That is not our usual shooting mode and the sorting process for us was much more complicated.In addition, when people do not get to look at others, there are no referrals re great photos.We sort by division and by day...30+ years of doing this tells me that buyers, not lookers, are willing to take the time to find themselves in a file of 100+ photos. But that is our decision and extra help ( expensive, qualified help) is not in my business plan to continue servicing an ever decreasing market...But, thanks.

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                • Original Poster

                  #88
                  Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                  The people who set the rules for the show apparently care (or, at least they might).

                  I also have no problem with the OP learning how to take photos and becoming a pro-- but why not just be HONEST about that up front? First she claims to be all ammy and aghast that she's accused of being a pro, then when confronted with her own website with language referencing the sale of photos-- she first deletes it and then accuses US of making it up. Then later acknowledges that the language was there, but since it's gone we're supposed to pretend it never was and/or it's our fault because it's a part of the website she forgot she posted and didn't update. I dunno. I take photos at horse shows and never sell them and I don't have websites to the contrary that I have to then go stealth-edit, disavow, and/or explain away. The saying that comes to mind is "doth protest too much."

                  If you're a developing pro-- fine, say so. And play by the rules. Don't encroach on shows that have a sanctioned photographer. Shoot at shows without a photographer and/or at barn shoots and don't mix into your business photos taken at a venue where you were not the sanctioned photographer.

                  My goodness! I appreciate most of your input but why so passionately insist that my intentional point of direction for this post was a lie. You act as if you have solved some sort of mystery and discovered a criminal. Excuse me for the dramatics but I am clearly not alone on that. I have stated multiple times that I had no recollection that the Facebook stated any of that, shoot me!

                  Point being, I was unaware I said this, I didn't remember ... I feel like i'm pleading now this is silly. When I was young i'd lose my hoof pick and INSIST that someone stole it from me, low and behold there it was in the bottom of my tack trunk where I left it. Similar situation, I DID NOT REMEMBER. I have not sold a thing. You stated "she does sell photos" where on earth did you come up with this? If you're going to accuse anyone of anything make sure you have the facts and the proof. Saying "she does sell photos" and she stated you can purchase photos (before this topic) is a completely different ball game. So as I made a mistake, so did you. After doing my research, speaking to show officials and then doing MORE research, nothing I did was "illegal". I actually can advertise via Facebook for photos OUTSIDE OF the horse show, although I am not and have since deleted the status updates when they were pointed out to me. If I take a picture of Britney Spears walking down the red carpet and People Magazine wants to buy it, this would be allowed. It is a great reat suggestion to keep the photos to myself, and I commend you for doing exactly that, but why? These are photos MOSTLY (and no not completely, take note of that so you don't point me out as a liar again) MOSTLY of friends, and some acquaintances. The few BNT's who enjoy the photos, HAVE NEVER used them let alone bought them. These same people rarely give business to show photographers anyway, not for any reason directly to them but because the photos are "hardly desirable" or "we have plenty" and I quote that, that is not from me. There are some AMAZING show photographer that I am blown away by, these people who take these beutiful pictures have no issue with me taking a handful of photos at shows.
                  I am still not understanding why you personally are so, for lack of better words persistent to make me sound like a lying scam! It's photography for goodness sake!

                  And no, "the people who set rules for the show" at hand did not care, they welcomed it which I was very grateful of them for doing. If you remember I stated that I asked the show official if I could take photos. You then accused me of promoting my work. Now you are saying that they might be upset I take photos. Which one is it?

                  This has gotten so out of control, and I never intended this to be so.
                  Last edited by delmarjump; Oct. 29, 2012, 05:03 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #89
                    Delmar, I don't particularly care. And to be frank, I don't really ready your posts because the lack of hard returns and long, long, long paragraphs makes it too much effort. I don't care what you do. If think you're set morally, etc., that's all that counts- right?
                    ~Veronica
                    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                    Comment


                    • #90
                      " Originally Posted by SaturdayNightLive

                      Yeah, but if shows made it mandatory that you buy all of your food from their concessions, people would have a meltdown."

                      "I think people would understand if they could not SELL food at a show venue without prior clearance from management. That's different than saying people can't bring their own food to share/eat without selling it."

                      But if one or two generous people - or groups - brought a LOT of food and offered it FREE to everyone on the grounds, how long do you think the food vendor would stay? Would s/he return to the next show? What if it rained at the next show and the generous folks didn't come? No coffee??? No donuts??? No lunch?????

                      It's not only when you're overtly selling that you're taking business away from the official photographer (who, as some have recognized, pay for the privilege; come rain or shine, hot or cold; come early and stay late).

                      Carol
                      www.ayliprod.com
                      Equine Photography in the Northeast

                      Comment


                      • #91
                        Originally posted by ccoronios View Post
                        " Originally Posted by SaturdayNightLive

                        Yeah, but if shows made it mandatory that you buy all of your food from their concessions, people would have a meltdown."

                        "I think people would understand if they could not SELL food at a show venue without prior clearance from management. That's different than saying people can't bring their own food to share/eat without selling it."

                        But if one or two generous people - or groups - brought a LOT of food and offered it FREE to everyone on the grounds, how long do you think the food vendor would stay? Would s/he return to the next show? What if it rained at the next show and the generous folks didn't come? No coffee??? No donuts??? No lunch?????

                        It's not only when you're overtly selling that you're taking business away from the official photographer (who, as some have recognized, pay for the privilege; come rain or shine, hot or cold; come early and stay late).

                        Carol
                        That actually happens regularly at some shows. The ones I can think of specifically are the Arabian shows in our area, where various barns host meals, and many lunches and dinners are covered. The vendor still does well at those, because people still have varying schedules and want to eat when it's convenient for them, want coffee in the early morning, etc.

                        However, I think a restaurant coming in to try to get folks to hire THEM as the vendor and providing free food all day long would be a closer comparison... and the vendor who was there would have reason to be upset!
                        Originally posted by Silverbridge
                        If you get anything on your Facebook feed about who is going to the Olympics in 2012 or guessing the outcome of Bush v Gore please start threads about those, too.

                        Comment


                        • #92
                          Originally posted by ponypix View Post
                          To all of you who have taken this issue and extrapolated to a lot of issues that ARE NOT issues...Nobody cares who TAKES photos at a show.That is not, nor has it EVER been the issue. We are the first to answer questions and give advice to anyone who asks.
                          This is SO true! My dad was taking pictures of me at one of the away horse shows and got into a long conversation with JLP about different lenses, angles to shoot from, etc. It was really neat and my dad was really appreciative of the tips. JLP didn't at all care that my dad was taking pictures of me and the people from my barn; he was happy to share his knowledge and didn't seem at all worried that it would take away from selling photographs at the show. Truth be told, I ended up buying quite a few pictures from him at that show!
                          Michigan State University College of Veterinary Medicine - Class of 2014

                          Chance Encounter
                          RIP Tall Tales

                          Comment


                          • #93
                            I just have to say that as someone who goes to one or two big shows a year, takes hundreds of photos (mostly royally crappy), and uploads them to FB for a number of reasons, this thread was one of the more interesting ones lately. No one would ever mistake my point-and-shoot for a DSLR, certainly, but I can't imagine anyone would want to buy my photos either! Two of my videos (shot by the same p-and-s) were used on eventingnation.com this summer and that was the highlight of my month, but I neither sought out "fame" nor was compensated--not even in the credits. I just want to be able to take pictures (and video) and learn about my low-end-ish camera and be able to reflect back on the good rides and fun shows.

                            OP--I'm sorry you've gotten mired in this nightmare, but I thank you for sharing your experience here.
                            Flip a coin. It's not what side lands that matters, but what side you were hoping for when the coin was still in the air.

                            You call it boxed wine. I call it carboardeaux.

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                            • Original Poster

                              #94
                              Originally posted by bascher View Post
                              This is SO true! My dad was taking pictures of me at one of the away horse shows and got into a long conversation with JLP about different lenses, angles to shoot from, etc. It was really neat and my dad was really appreciative of the tips. JLP didn't at all care that my dad was taking pictures of me and the people from my barn; he was happy to share his knowledge and didn't seem at all worried that it would take away from selling photographs at the show. Truth be told, I ended up buying quite a few pictures from him at that show!
                              Not to point myself out any more wrong than has been done but this is different because I am taking photos of people outside of my barn. Although this isn't rider after rider after rider in an entire class, that is what has become the problem here, I guess?


                              Originally posted by jen-s View Post
                              I just have to say that as someone who goes to one or two big shows a year, takes hundreds of photos (mostly royally crappy), and uploads them to FB for a number of reasons, this thread was one of the more interesting ones lately. No one would ever mistake my point-and-shoot for a DSLR, certainly, but I can't imagine anyone would want to buy my photos either! Two of my videos (shot by the same p-and-s) were used on eventingnation.com this summer and that was the highlight of my month, but I neither sought out "fame" nor was compensated--not even in the credits. I just want to be able to take pictures (and video) and learn about my low-end-ish camera and be able to reflect back on the good rides and fun shows.

                              OP--I'm sorry you've gotten mired in this nightmare, but I thank you for sharing your experience here.
                              As much as i'm a little embarrassed and defeated I am really glad I posted this, it's pointed out quite a few angles that I wasn't able to see in the beginning, it's been helpful!

                              Comment


                              • #95
                                [QUOTE=delmarjump;6637581]Not to point myself out any more wrong than has been done but this is different because I am taking photos of people outside of my barn. Although this isn't rider after rider after rider in an entire class, that is what has become the problem here, I guess?

                                I have taken pictures of other people not at my barn that I knew or whose horses I was crushing on lol and tagged them on FB. I have absolutely no attention of selling any of them and just enjoy taking pictures to see how my timing is coming along. If people think that's wrong, then so be it, but as JLP said, he knows people on FB who take pictures because they enjoy it and want to share with friends and for no other reason. That's what I do; it's pure enjoyment and makes me happy when I actually happen to get a good one! It lets me chronicle horse shows and swoon over horses that I wish I could have (Inclusive anyone??). In your case, I am so incredibly confused now that I'm not quite sure what's wrong. I don't think it's just taking pictures of people outside of the barn because if that were the case, pretty much everyone that goes to Devon and indoors and takes pictures of people, then posts them on FB to share with friends, would be in trouble. I think it has more to do with you actually having a photography business but really, I'm not entirely positive anymore! LACK OF SLEEP overload.

                                ETA: sorry the quote got messed up!
                                Michigan State University College of Veterinary Medicine - Class of 2014

                                Chance Encounter
                                RIP Tall Tales

                                Comment


                                • #96
                                  Not weighing in on the photog part, but I have to ask how you have time at a show you have students at to take photos. Because I know between my students, their horses, the different rings, and when I try to show my own horse I hardly have time to learn my SJ course let alone take photos!

                                  Comment


                                  • #97
                                    Originally posted by findeight View Post
                                    I never had any issue with that or had anybody object to a friend taking a few shots or even videoing a few rounds-for free.
                                    Unfortunately, I have. I was at "a big summer A show which will remain nameless" a couple of summers ago, and a friend of mine (my friend's husband, actually) who is a part-time sports photographer came to watch the show and kindly offered to take some photos for me. Note - he was only taking photos of me, and at no charge as we are good friends. Oh boy did this cause a stir! The show photographer came over and told him he couldn't take photos. He explained that he was only taking photos of a friend (me). Photographer left. Came back a little bit later and told my friend that he had to leave. Turned into a round of "well, who's your friend then?" "Number 123, right there on the gray horse..." "You can't be here!" "Says who?" etc. etc. Not fun.

                                    Long story short, my friend had no interest in attending any future horse shows. I actually did purchase a photo from the official photographer at that show, and I also have some beautiful shots from my friend.
                                    "A goal without a plan is just a wish."

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #98
                                      Originally posted by Couture TB View Post
                                      Not weighing in on the photog part, but I have to ask how you have time at a show you have students at to take photos. Because I know between my students, their horses, the different rings, and when I try to show my own horse I hardly have time to learn my SJ course let alone take photos!
                                      Understandable question, my business is very small. When I say business or clients you probably imagine a full show barn. When away I have about 1-3 horses with me at the show, most of the girls in the same division. After division is done, there is time to waste after things are taken care of. I only spend an hour or so if even that taking pictures here and there. If i'm at the show grounds at 7:00 AM and our classes don't run till 3:00 PM there's quite a bit of time in there. Especially at some of the away shows, IE: middle of the desert, not much to do but bake in the sun or go back to the condo and watch TV, which I prefer not to do When at home the horses are worked. If I had a barn full of horses traveling with me, believe me I wouldn't have any time to run around and take photos, don't get me wrong though! I love my small group, I am surrounded by great kids 7 days a week!


                                      Originally posted by bascher View Post
                                      I think it has more to do with you actually having a photography business but really, I'm not entirely positive anymore! LACK OF SLEEP overload.
                                      I don't have a business, although I would love to THIS is where time would come into hand. Someone had mentioned that maybe I should turn the Facebook name into something other than "My Name" Photography, and in all honesty that is a great idea but I can't change it now, and I never though of it sounding like a business as I know a few others who have similar accounts on there, Flickr and photo bucket, I suppose I was just going with the trend, oops!

                                      Now as of late I have been offered a paid job to photograph at this coming month. My initial response was "sure!" until I read these replies, I realized that even though I am getting paid for something outside of a horse show this might really put things over the top. I'm debating whether I should take it or not, and just do it freelance for more experience, but then again I get plenty of that at the shows themselves. My ultimate decision a couple days ago was "no" based on what I had read here. After doing so much research while reading the replies here I learned that this wouldn't be frowned on. Well, frowned on perhaps but not "illegal". If the photos that are taken, and paid for are NOT at the horse show, you can sell and advertise however you would like. This job is not a horse show event though, related to horses yes but nothing close to a horse show. I can see where this would cause an actual disturbance though. I am still up in the air about it and want to do more research. It's silly that this has turned into all of this, to be quite frank this thread has turned into a bigger deal than the situation at hand ha ha! Or not a "big deal" but, a bigger matter?

                                      I think in most cases a poster would just stop with the honesty after this but the input negative or positive is helpful to be honest.

                                      As someone pointed out for the photographer who DOES plan on being a hired photographer at horse shows, everyone starts out somewhere. I actually remember several of this photographers employees starting out taking free pictures and giving them away. One in specific used to email me photos of my clients WHILE they worked for this photographer.

                                      VXF commented on my run on and lengthy replies. I apologize if anyone else is annoyed by it, clearly I can't nutshell anything.

                                      Comment


                                      • #99
                                        Originally posted by bascher View Post
                                        This is SO true! My dad was taking pictures of me at one of the away horse shows and got into a long conversation with JLP about different lenses, angles to shoot from, etc. It was really neat and my dad was really appreciative of the tips. JLP didn't at all care that my dad was taking pictures of me and the people from my barn; he was happy to share his knowledge and didn't seem at all worried that it would take away from selling photographs at the show. Truth be told, I ended up buying quite a few pictures from him at that show!
                                        I was one of those kids who took tons of pictures of people with a (then) crappy camera. If I remember correctly, I was using a video camera, filming the jump I wanted to get a picture of, and then pulling the still frame from the video because I didn't have a point-and-shoot camera.

                                        Well.

                                        My trainer marched me over to JLP and told him he should look at my pictures (I think I was 12 at the time? Maybe 13?) because I had good timing. He then set me up with one of his cameras, mentored me for the several weeks that I was showing up in Vermont back in the days where he shot that show - am I dating myself saying that? That was where I learned all I know about photography and what got me to start saving up money for a DSLR camera, which I eventually purchased and used to take better pictures. My parents still have a JLP picture somewhere of me with his camera and a huge smile on my face because I was so excited to be working with him.

                                        I've worked for a few photographers since then (and gotten offers from more) because they've seen me taking pictures of friends at shows and wanted to see my pictures, not in a malicious way, just to be friendly. It's all about how you present yourself, I think...
                                        http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
                                        Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

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                                        • Thanks Bonnie and Emily.It's "kids" like Emily that make it so much fun to share what you know.Emily was about as big as the camera I gave her but she just wanted to learn..and she did. In fact, she worked for another photographer later on in Vt. and I could not have been happier and prouder.As she said, that was a while ago...She's now in prevet and I know she will be a great vet..she really loves the animals. But, in truth, my experience with Emily was the exception. There have been a long list of devious, deceitful wanabe's along the way. Somehow Devon HS brings out the worst of them...There has been a never ending list of losers that appear every year until they lie themselves into being barred from the grounds.It is not that they present any challenge to our business, but they make the day there miserable merely with their presence. Be sure, I don't have the say in who shoots and who doesn't...That is handled by the show managers. But, as I've said, they have my back because we have theirs. But even these bottom feeders ( you know who you are and I must be having a weak moment because I would normally have no problem in posting your names) have not stopped me from offering help to anyone who wants to learn. Having Emily Pope in my life makes up for all the time I've had to deal with the aforementioned " photographers"..If they are still making believe they can be successful...One is done....The other, give her some time...She'll be gone too.Life's a bitch when you are one.Say Goodnight, Gracie
                                          l

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