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Independent photographers at horse shows ... "legal matters"

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  • #41
    Something else to keep in mind; if someone other than the official event photographer shoots, then posts images on FB or elsewhere, they could potentially be opening themselves up to liability to the people in the photos.
    Um. It is a public sporting event.

    And if tack sellers and such have to pay a vendor's fee to sell, shouldn't everyone?
    Only if they're actually selling anything. The ammies generally are not.
    ---
    They're small hearts.

    Comment


    • #42
      I think it is sad that photographers consider that the only way to preserve their profession (at least with respect to horse shows) is to prohibit *anyone else* from carrying a camera.

      I've said it before, and I will say it again.

      If a professional photographer produces truly awesome photos, people will buy them.

      The challenge arises when the professional's photos are no better than the ones taken by the hobbyist/amateur/friends & family crowd. Throw in the lack of decent customer service, poor communication and so forth - and the current business model used by many (NOT all) professional show photographers, and you have a recipe for a dying business.
      **********
      We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
      -PaulaEdwina

      Comment


      • #43
        I usually have a friend take pics for me with my own camera when I show my horse.
        She will snap hundreds of photos (the more she takes, the more likely we get a couple
        decent pics) and then I go through on my computer and edit if crop them myself.
        I'm still excited to see any pro shots from that day and will buy them
        without hesitating. This last show I had a trainer ride my horse for me. I took pictures myself and did end up with a lot of similar shots as the pro who was shooting. However,
        She obviously has much nicer lenses than me and I was hoping to buy
        a cross country shot that was too far off for my camera to catch well.
        I was a bit disappointed to see that there was not one of him going over that fence
        like there was of the majority of the other horses that day. I would have
        purchased a couple copies of it it she had gotten one.

        My point is that eventhough I come home with a SD card full of over
        300 pics from my owner camera, I still get excited to see the pro pics
        Aand will happily spend the money on them if they have something I like.
        RIP Spider Murphy 4/20/02 - 10/31/10

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by jenarby View Post
          I usually have a friend take pics for me with my own camera when I show my horse.
          She will snap hundreds of photos (the more she takes, the more likely we get a couple
          decent pics) and then I go through on my computer and edit if crop them myself.
          I'm still excited to see any pro shots from that day and will buy them
          without hesitating. This last show I had a trainer ride my horse for me. I took pictures myself and did end up with a lot of similar shots as the pro who was shooting. However,
          She obviously has much nicer lenses than me and I was hoping to buy
          a cross country shot that was too far off for my camera to catch well.
          I was a bit disappointed to see that there was not one of him going over that fence
          like there was of the majority of the other horses that day. I would have
          purchased a couple copies of it it she had gotten one.

          My point is that eventhough I come home with a SD card full of over
          300 pics from my owner camera, I still get excited to see the pro pics
          Aand will happily spend the money on them if they have something I like.
          Me too. I am grateful for the non pro photos my friends and boyfriend take. But if the pro gets a shot- I buy it. ALWAYS.
          ~Veronica
          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

          Comment


          • #45
            As a trainer who is also a photographer as a hobby, I feel you you.
            I am a mostly ammy photographer. I have assisted a wedding with my mom (a pro photog) for which I was given a few bucks and I was hired for the first time this summer by a local pro and was one of the OPs for our State 4H show, but generally speaking I participate in 2 local clubs and enter local juried shows and exhibits. I shoot for fun and to improve. I have only been seriously shooting for 3 years.

            I too like to occasionally take photos at shows, however, I've never had an issue with a show OP. In fact, just to present a different side, I'd like to mention an encounter I had at Devon Fall last month... My student was showing in the low adults there and I'd brought my "good camera" so my other student could take pics while I was training. I walked to the ring to take a few test shots to get the setting right for the kid and then stayed to take pictures of a girl I know from FB. As I was set up to take a shot, the OP, Al Cook, comes over next to me to get a shot. It startled me a bit and I scooched over bc as far as I am concerned, he gets "the good spot". I laughed and told him I had lens envy and he stood and chatted with my briefly about his lens (turned out it was the same one I'd been blessed to use at the State show) and his camera (he used to have the same one as me before a recent upgrade - cool!) and I told him that he'd taken one of my favourite photos of myself and my junior hunter "back in the day". He was nothing if not jovial and polite. Now, granted, I wasn't there all day in his way, but he could have been as @ss if he wanted.

            At the "real" Devon this year, I went a couple days that I wasn't there training just to shoot. I DID sit all day and shoot class after class, working on learning to shoot action shots NOT on "auto" setting, find good lighting, and shoot candids. Not once did I have a run-in with an OP - and I hear Devon is a likely place to have those kinds of run-ins.

            I think it's all a bit of a sticky situation... I see it from both sides, being friends with many pro photogs (non-horse) who deal with similar situations and yet also being in the horse business. I do want horse shows to keep having OPs. I LOVE photos so it's important to me to have access to high quality photos when I want them. However, I do believe OPs better rethink their business models to stay alive. The vast majority of the pro photogs I know (sports, etc) have made changes to their business models to help compete with MommySLR and DigitalDaddy at their soccer games. I fear if horse show photographers don't figure it out soon, they will die out.
            ...for there are wings on these hooves, the speed and power of foam-capped waves...
            *~v~*~v~*~v~*~v~*~v~*~v~*~v~*
            Proud member of the artists clique

            Comment


            • #46
              Al is one of the nicest guys I've met, a class act, and a great person to deal with
              ~Veronica
              "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
              http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #47
                Thanks for all the advice everyone! It's actually been incredibly helpful. I was asked by one of the show managers to shoot some photos, and have been requested actually by quite a few people to do some photo shoots. This is all without any advertisement and all word of mouth from the show managers and other trainers. Again, thank you! This thread couldn't have been more helpful.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by Lucassb View Post

                  If a professional photographer produces truly awesome photos, people will buy them.
                  AMEN. I just had this conversation at a dance competition with the official photographer (private video's banned but still photos are allowed.) I told him and his assistant I was so glad to see it was Park West shooting the comp, rather than X company, because I know I always get a few good photos from them. X Company does a lot of events, too, but I have had entire competitions where they've gotten one or two pictures of me from nonflattering angles and with poor lighting. Park West isn't any cheaper, but their photographs are consistently higher quality, so I will buy them despite having free pictures taken by people from my studio. With X, I don't. If you have a good product, people will buy it. If you're constantly getting undercut by amateurs, possibly the problem is not free competition.
                  Author Page
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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by delmarjump View Post
                    Thanks for all the advice everyone! It's actually been incredibly helpful. I was asked by one of the show managers to shoot some photos, and have been requested actually by quite a few people to do some photo shoots. This is all without any advertisement and all word of mouth from the show managers and other trainers. Again, thank you! This thread couldn't have been more helpful.
                    See, this is where it goes from "i'm just doing this as my hobby" to crossing a line and undermining a business by taking work from actual pros. If you were truly out there "as a hobby" you wouldn't be taking the pro's business by offering admittedly mediocre work for free (or cheap).

                    Think of it this way: You've invested time, money, etc into your training business, right? You've built relationships with clients, you've purchased equipment and insurance and built your skill set to be truly professional at what you do.

                    Along comes someone to your barn, offering to ride your clients horses for free, because it's her hobby and she doesn't get enough saddle time, and she just likes to ride and work with horses, for fun. She doesn't lesson with you. She's not as good a rider as you, she's not a professional. We'll call her mediocre. Not awful, but not at a level she can sell her services, though, of course, she can offer them up for free or at much less cost than the going rate. Some of your clients start letting her ride their horses, because she doesn't charge as much as you do, and "she's not trying to steal your work, it's just her hobby, she's just doing it for fun." Soon, she's saying, "hey, well I'll be attending xx show anyways, I can school your horse for you, he's been so good for me, why don't you let me help you." Are you a better rider and coach than she is? Certainly, you're a pro, she's just doing it for a hobby. But eventually, some of your clients decide that free, mediocre assistance is better than paying for a real pro, and here she has "unintentionally" come in and undermined your business. Is it illegal? Of course not. Is it appropriate and ethical behavior? I don't think so. Do unto others...

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      I believe the OP has a Facebook page entitled "My Name Photography", so I can see where the photographer's concerns originated. I also believe that constitutes at least some form of advertising. And apparently the OP is trying to gain business, as championed in the latest post, which ultimately constitutes even more "promotion" (which is just a fancy word for free advertising).

                      I think we've pretty much abandoned the hobby ballpark.
                      EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by dags View Post
                        I believe the OP has a Facebook page entitled "My Name Photography", so I can see where the photographer's concerns originated. I also believe that constitutes at least some form of advertising. And apparently the OP is trying to gain business, as championed in the latest post, which ultimately constitutes even more "promotion" (which is just a fancy word for free advertising).

                        I think we've pretty much abandoned the hobby ballpark.
                        Completely agree with the above.. in fact, from said facebook site...

                        If you would like photos taken for purchase at a private location, stable, senior portraits, equine portraits or other please contact me through Facebook."
                        Yeah, pretty sure saying "if you would like to purchase my services" takes it beyond "I'm just doing this as a hobby and my work is not for sale."

                        It's like saying, I'm not a trainer, but if you'd like to pay me for lessons or rides, please let me know!

                        OP - sorry, you can't have it both ways. If you were truly doing this as a hobby, then yes, the photographer was out of line. But, since it's become apparent that you are in fact offering paid services, and advertising as a photographer (and yes, having a "My Name Photography" page on facebook counts as advertising and promotion, even if you aren't paying for it), the photographer, even if the approach was wrong, was in the right here. You were/are crossing a line by doing this, and apparently going even further by now offering these services to show management.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Irony much?

                          Indignation that a pro photog would accuse the ammy OP photog of usurping his business... but then it turns out that the reason the OP was talking to show management anyway was to advertise her photography business and moreover she's posting photos from the show on a website from which she advertises photography-for-fee services.
                          ~Veronica
                          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                            Me too. I am grateful for the non pro photos my friends and boyfriend take. But if the pro gets a shot- I buy it. ALWAYS.
                            Same with me. I love it when people at my barn take pictures of me and my horse, and often the ones I really like from that bunch are candids/hack pictures and whatnot. But I will always buy a shot from a photographer if I love it. Even if the barn photographer also got some action shots that are great, if the pro photographer gets a beautiful shot, I'll buy it. I check the pro photographers' photos at the end of each day of long away shows and at local shows with photographers, I always anticipate looking at their pictures on their websites. I am REALLY grateful for what they do and I try as much as possible to support them by pretty much always buying their pictures when they get shots that I adore. This isn't trying to bash the non-pro photographer barn friends; I am more than grateful to them for documenting all of my horse shows and taking really great pictures, but I never want to see the pro photographers go out business and I know they are having a really tough time with FB, stealing, etc, so I try my hardest to buy their pictures whenever I am able.
                            Michigan State University College of Veterinary Medicine - Class of 2014

                            Chance Encounter
                            RIP Tall Tales

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                            • #54
                              Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                              Irony much?

                              Indignation that a pro photog would accuse the ammy OP photog of usurping his business... but then it turns out that the reason the OP was talking to show management anyway was to advertise her photography business and moreover she's posting photos from the show on a website from which she advertises photography-for-fee services.
                              Is she posting photos from the show on her page or is she only posting her photo shoots at stables, senior pictures, etc? Not saying I support this new development because it has certainly gone above the hobby level, but I guess I missed where she is actually selling the photographs from the horse shows? I know she said she was approached by show management, but is she selling those show pictures or only selling other pictures from other places? And show management should certainly be helping to sort things out also; they should be letting their pro photographers know if they are asking another photographer to come in and do work!
                              Michigan State University College of Veterinary Medicine - Class of 2014

                              Chance Encounter
                              RIP Tall Tales

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                              • #55
                                I didn't read all the way through this

                                but did the OPs web thing say "photos taken at "private" locations?"

                                Meaning hey, the show photographer will not be going to your farm to take your DDs senior pictures, but, if you like what you see here, the OP will.


                                I think all pros probably started the same way. Doing something for free til people like it, cheap til they start buying, then go pro and charge what they need to survive and thrive.

                                Should you defer a good location to the "official" show photographer?

                                Absolutely.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by bascher View Post
                                  Is she posting photos from the show on her page or is she only posting her photo shoots at stables, senior pictures, etc? Not saying I support this new development because it has certainly gone above the hobby level, but I guess I missed where she is actually selling the photographs from the horse shows? I know she said she was approached by show management, but is she selling those show pictures or only selling other pictures from other places? And show management should certainly be helping to sort things out also; they should be letting their pro photographers know if they are asking another photographer to come in and do work!
                                  Photos from the show are available and offered for free on the facebook page. The photos from the show are not directly for sale - though they are available for free. They are being used to promote the paid services.


                                  Is she breaking the specific rule of you may not sell the photos from this horse show directly? No. She's giving them away for free. But she's certainly violating the spirit and intention of it.

                                  I guess we could compare this to the Amateur Rule, or the Drug Rule. There are a million technicalities in getting around the rules if you want to, but we all know what the intent of those rules are...

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    The photographer who shoots our shows hasn't had a very good year - don't know if they've sold anything at all.

                                    They tried to dictate to us that we had to ban all cameras on the grounds. I almost fell out of my chair laughing.

                                    They don't pay a vendor fee - we like to have a photographer on the grounds as a courtesy to our exhibitors. IMO, this particular crew just isn't that good, which is probably why they aren't selling anything.

                                    I'd love to see them try to tell Suzie's daddy he can't take pictures of his precious.
                                    http://www.tbhsa.com/index.html

                                    Originally Posted by JSwan
                                    I love feral children. They taste like chicken.

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                                    • #58
                                      Emphasis mine…

                                      Post #1 by the OP

                                      Originally posted by delmarjump View Post

                                      Rather than hinting to it being someone else, I take photos as a hobby at horse shows when I myself don't attend or am not working....

                                      Simply can't understand the request that a hobby photographer not take photos.
                                      Post #23 by the OP

                                      Originally posted by delmarjump View Post

                                      I have never, and ever plan on selling my pictures, let alone advertising them…

                                      On top of all this, my photos being my hobby, they are not great, I am not a professional and I don't know a thing or two about settings on a camera.
                                      OP represented herself as a purely hobby photographer who did not sell photos. Only, that turns out to be untrue. Although she was not selling the photos she took on the day she was approached at the show—she DOES sell photos. In fact, she advertises on the internet that she’ll do photoshoots and uses on that website the photos she took at the show where she was approached. So her initial representation was not truthful. She is a pro photog, albeit by her own admission not a skilled one, and her use of the photos from the show was commercial (advertising on her own website). Moreover, she parlayed her taking of those photos into a (presumably paid) gig where she became the show photographer. Her initial posts were not at all candid about the situation.
                                      ~Veronica
                                      "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                      http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by hAlterHorse View Post
                                        Photos from the show are available and offered for free on the facebook page. The photos from the show are not directly for sale - though they are available for free. They are being used to promote the paid services.


                                        Is she breaking the specific rule of you may not sell the photos from this horse show directly? No. She's giving them away for free. But she's certainly violating the spirit and intention of it.

                                        I guess we could compare this to the Amateur Rule, or the Drug Rule. There are a million technicalities in getting around the rules if you want to, but we all know what the intent of those rules are...
                                        I didn't think about it that way. Most of the times when non-pro people are just taking pictures at shows and not selling them, I'm fine with it. But if she is actually using these free pictures to promote a paid service, that does changes things and I didn't realize that she was using those photos from that specific show to promote a paid business. Most people who are taking pictures as a non-pro at horse shows aren't then using those photographs to promote a photography business so I didn't think it all the way through!
                                        Michigan State University College of Veterinary Medicine - Class of 2014

                                        Chance Encounter
                                        RIP Tall Tales

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                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                                          Emphasis mine…

                                          Post #1 by the OP



                                          Post #23 by the OP



                                          OP represented herself as a purely hobby photographer who did not sell photos. Only, that turns out to be untrue. Although she was not selling the photos she took on the day she was approached at the show—she DOES sell photos. In fact, she advertises on the internet that she’ll do photoshoots and uses on that website the photos she took at the show where she was approached. So her initial representation was not truthful. She is a pro photog, albeit by her own admission not a skilled one, and her use of the photos from the show was commercial (advertising on her own website). Moreover, she parlayed her taking of those photos into a (presumably paid) gig where she became the show photographer. Her initial posts were not at all candid about the situation.

                                          This is exactly my point only you expressed it much more eloquently than I did, thank you!

                                          OP even comes back on this very thread - post #47 - to contradict the original posts about doing this as a hobby only quoted above:

                                          Originally posted by delmarjump View Post
                                          I was asked by one of the show managers to shoot some photos, and have been requested actually by quite a few people to do some photo shoots. This is all without any advertisement and all word of mouth from the show managers and other trainers.
                                          (And again, when you have a "My Photography" page offering services, not sure how you can say that that is "without any advertisement" paid advertising, maybe... but free advertising on FB is still advertising).

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