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TBs vs WBs:Why the change in H/Js

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  • ROFL - yep I would think a tb would qualify as a "sporthorse".

    The OTTB I just got will probably look more like a wb than a tb when he gets over the ulcer he probably has from the track and actually gains some weight!!

    You're right about how they are breeding them as well - they are too hung on Northern Dancer lines. They need to outcross a bit more.
    The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
    H. Cate


    • Though Northern Dancer was a tiny little thing, he was an influence for stamina and was himself record setter at 10 furlongs, in the Kentucky Derby no less. ND gets alot of flack related to breeding for speed and IMO, wrongly so.
      Anyhoo... While working at the track this summer (Saratoga) I spotted an amazing looking horse and I watched for him every day. Big, solid dark bay with no white. Plain as day but amazing build. He literally looked like he could have been ridden off the track and into a showring. His walk and trot looked like an A show horse and he (literally) walked every day down a city street and onto track grounds, alone with head down and flat footed WALK. I wish I knew who he was. He was an amazing horse.

      There are alot of lovely horses out there and many TB's a are victims of their low price in that they do get lost in "low rent" homes. That said, if they are carrying around middle aged ammys safely and pleasantly (as Titus does for me and his owner) while never reaching the highest levels, there is alot to be said for that. (Similarly, I recently read a thread on the breeding bb about certain stallions who are siring great ammy friendly horses. Because their offspring are good natured, even if they are supremely talented they are often relegated to the 3' ring and never get the recognition for their sire that he deserves. Odd because more folks do the "mortifieds" or 3' than the 3'6 or 4' nowadays.) Far more riders are doing limited or very small time shows than the big A's. Many have horses that could compete at higher levels with either more money, time effort or better training, if the rider/owner wanted to.
      F O.B
      Resident racing historian ~~~ Re-riders Clique
      Founder of the Mighty Thoroughbred Clique


      • Originally posted by JGHIRETIRE View Post
        That's interesting about Final Pool - I did have one of his foals and she was very very sweet -That was the big thing about him that he had a great temperment - I had never heard of any of them being nasty.
        I showed in Washington too.
        I don't remember any of them being nasty either. He stood for a long time at North Star and it seemed practically everybody had something by Final Pool around here. We had one in the barn that I just adored, and very nearly owned. I think the fad died out when the stallion moved to Canada, then just aged too much to breed. He was great for the home breds around here.
        The truth is always in the middle.


        • I wasn't meaning nasty as in temperaments but I do think many of the turned out to be unsound and thus turned into stoppers.

          Again, obviously not every Pool baby was unsound, but I think a trend started where some of them started stopping and he got the reputation, and people stopped breeding to him.
          My Pictures! http://community.webshots.com/user/estieg12
          *Harbour Town* 2002 Hanoverian gelding "Otto"
          *Sahalee* 2002 mare "Flower" but who knows what breed she is!


          • Originally posted by Linny View Post
            Though Northern Dancer was a tiny little thing, he was an influence for stamina and was himself record setter at 10 furlongs, in the Kentucky Derby no less. ND gets alot of flack related to breeding for speed and IMO, wrongly so.
            I love to see Northern Dancer in a pedigree. I associate him with that cat like quickness that I find so satisfying and safe when I ride a horse. And for hunting, they can go and go and go and never put a foot wrong.

            Originally posted by Linny View Post
            Anyhoo... While working at the track this summer (Saratoga) I spotted an amazing looking horse and I watched for him every day. Big, solid dark bay with no white. Plain as day but amazing build. He literally looked like he could have been ridden off the track and into a showring. His walk and trot looked like an A show horse and he (literally) walked every day down a city street and onto track grounds, alone with head down and flat footed WALK. I wish I knew who he was. He was an amazing horse.
            Many years ago, in the late 70s, I went to Unionville PA for the first time. At that time I was a great lover of thoroughbreds but had no experience with racing tbs except for getting our horses ready for our local races and old fashion point to point. I'll never forget riding by Jonathan Sheppard's barn and seeing a horse called Rippon trot across the pasture in perfect balance, it was a huge beautiful floating trot. Eventually I worked there for a nbit and learned much about what to expect from tbs. All the horses there were expected to behave politely and calmly regardless of what was going on around them. When we broke two year olds we'd number off as ones and twos and start off trotting in a circle in the same direction; when the number two was yelled the twos would reverse and make a larger circle around the ones and continue trotting, now two circles in reverse directions. The jumpers were conditioned cross country and it wasn't unusual for them to be fox hunted.

            Later I worked for Dr. Fisher where we conditioned the turf horses on the farm (pre Fairhill) and broke two year olds there. It's essentially the same story. The two years olds were well broken, very tractable and cool by the time they went to the track. When the turf horses went to the track to race they knew their game and were polite and easy to handle.

            I went to Saratoga with Doctor Fisher and the horses stayed at Oklahoma where most of the jumpers stay. I really don't remember any problems riding to and from the tracks. We rode to the big track like it was a Sunday morning stroll. But all of those horses had essentially the same type of early training and walking politely from point a to point b was just what they did.

            Now when I get ottbs I know how they can behave if they have the appropriate foundation in their training, so I try to take my time and give them what they likely missed. For me, however, it takes much longer to establish that behavior with an ottb than it does with an unraced young tb. My greatest obstacle is what I call Wide Open Field Syndrome, their training goes along at a nice steady clip until we go into a wide open field with a bunch of other horses, then everything goes out the window, even when I try to introduce WOFs slowly . The only time I haven't run into that was when I came across a jumper. He hunted in the front of the field the first year I had him; but I know who gave him his early training and it's no wonder he handles hunting so well.


            • I like Northern Dancer too - it's just that they inbreed it so much these days. Through Mr. Prospecter as well who was known for having bad ankles as was Native Dancer. If they crossed it without something really solid like Round Table it would be great.

              I went to the summer yearling sale here at Emerald Downs earlier this month. There were some very nice looking yearlings there that built really well and then there were a few that were.................well............
              The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
              H. Cate


              • You are right about Final Pool - everybody bred everything to him. Maybe that was part of the problem - mares that shouldn't have been bred to him were.
                If you run across anything Final Pool now - it's like automatically 30K unless they are totally unrideable.
                The problem with political jokes is that they get elected.
                H. Cate


                • I had intended to follow up on this one...Mother nature had other ideas but back up now.

                  I am kind of surprised about the 30 month deal in my hypothetical example. For one thing it's 2 years and a couple of months, not 3 years. For another, many advocate going slow yet then you have the "any horse can do it" theories. I think around 2 years is a good point to figure on spending. IMO and IME it takes about 2 to 3 years to break one and get it to what I consider finished. Maybe you get lucky with a couple and it's quicker. More likely we have different definitions of what we want in the "finished" horse

                  Lastly, I was talking about AA rated level shows where you need to be able to produce a score at 80 or above in classes of 30 or better including nationally ranked competitiors or you are wasting your money.

                  Far as horse D? 15k or so if you can find one. Most around here do not carry them long enough to reach that point or, if they are any good, keep them and put a full year to 18 months on them and they end up priced not far from what a comparable WB would be at the same stage of training. The money is in either the quick let down, evaluate and flip within 90 days or so or keeping it to offer as a Pre Green ready to show.

                  Have to say, the last half dozen or so I have seen come off the track have been dissappointing. Not at all what you used to see.
                  When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                  The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


                  • Final Pool still has a huge reputation, even now. If there is one person who has a poor impression of him, there would be ten others that would disagree. I've lived up here for forty years in the horse world - I've known many of them and their looks, movement, dispositions, have all been l0's. I'm sure there are no statistics out there that would say a horse threw stoppers - I'd be more inclined to look at management or training. But each to their own opinion, I guess; no point making an argument.
                    Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique


                    • Originally posted by Equino View Post
                      I just have to comment on the "instant gratification" remarks. Anyone that can go out and buy a finished, high 6 figure horse will get just that. What about the little people like me, who spent a measly $20,000 on my 1st WB and then spent the next few years getting her ready for the 3'?
                      Really? $20,000 is measly? Can we trade places, please?


                      • Originally posted by ParadiseFound View Post
                        Really? $20,000 is measly? Can we trade places, please?

                        It can be if you are looking for AA quality and long term soundess with demonstrated potential in any breed. You could get lucky but would be surprised if there are too many out there at AAs that sold for less then the mid teens.

                        Have seen actual OTTBs at AAs, know one that won at Indoors recently. But they had YEARS of training since the track before they got there with any success.
                        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.


                        • correction

                          Hauwse wrote: "If we look at arguably the best rider in the US, Beezie Madden, and her most successful recent mounts, being Authentic and Judgment, and examine their bloodlines, we see that these two hoses are well over 80% TB."

                          Judgement is 35.55% TB and Authentic is 70.32% TB. It is typical for many international showjumpers to have about 50% TB in their pedigree, +- 15-20%.
                          Morningside Stud