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Proposed changes to amateur rules

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  • Read for comprehension, ladies: she takes a share of the BUYER's trainer's commission! Which under any other business model would be called a "kickback", just as under any other business model (outside of USEF) anyone who makes a living doing something would be considered to be employed full-time doing it, hence a pro.
    "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

    Comment


    • But it makes no sense. Once again, what does she say?

      "My horse is $50,000 and I want a hunk of your commission?" It's backwards. It's the seller that usually offers the kickback, not gets it.

      If there are two trainers involved, and they are sharing some money neither buyer nor seller knows about, that's one thing. But if she is selling direct, she would be the one to offer a kickback, to get the trainer to push for the sale, not expect a commission on her own horse. There is no reason for the buyer's trainer to do this, when he can go to someone else who will sweeten his end of the deal, not expect him to give up his commission.

      As far as 'making a living' at it, where is the cut off? What's the difference between selling my $2,000 horse for $50,000 and someone else who sells their $2,000 horse for $450,000? What is the difference between a person using their own money to buy and sell their own horses and someone richer using their own money to just buy?
      *****
      You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

      Comment


      • This thread has been exhausted....

        Oh, man, has this gotten far fetched......please excuse me, I need my meds.

        Comment


        • More Questions Still.....

          So I just read through this thread and have some questions which some of you may be willing to answer:

          My amateur daughter rides only her own horses at every horse show she attends. She is a jumper.
          We have recently bought a property that has a house and a barn. We want to have some boarders on this property.
          If we do get any boarders that pay us for board will that jeopardize her amateur status?
          If she hacks/exercises any of the boarded horses on our property (for instance if the owner is unable to come out one day) can that jeopardize her amateur status.
          If my daughter helps her trainer at a horse show by setting jumps in a warm up arena for another one of her trainer's clients - can that jeopardize her amateur status?
          Just wondering if any of my questions apply to current USEF rules and/or proposed USEF rule changes.
          Thanks in advance for any advice.
          Last edited by xxHorseLoverxx; Sep. 21, 2008, 03:09 PM. Reason: added another question

          Comment


          • everyone is so caught up on the money aspect of the rule, as if professionals are making six-digit salaries LOL..... I am a professional according to the USEF and I follow the rules. However, after reviewing the results from the show i was at this past week, I feel like there should be some sort of rule about the amateur divisions and cross entering into upper level jumper classes, lets say above 4'6"...

            For instance, is it really fair for someone who has three mounts in the GP, to compete in the adult amateur medal???? I feel the same way about the juniors competing in the GP and the junior medal... I know that you can argue that riding in the jumpers and laying down a beautiful eq course are apple and oranges....but shouldn't our legislation be able to assume that if you can jump around a GP course you should be plenty capable to jump around at 3'-3'6" flawlessly???

            And for those ppl who have mentioned that there are ENDLESS divisions for pros to compete in, I'm here to tell ya its really not that easy.... What happens if you have a horse you are trying to market at a 3'6" horse and its already done its first year green... Some shows have an "open" division at 3'6" but not all of them, and honestly "open" is not something most people are impressed with because its mostly viewed as a warm up division... i think there should be a 3'6 working hunter div or even 3'9 working hunter... they don't necessarily need to be rated but they would be good places to market a horse for sale at that level... without having to show them in the open or endless 3' divisions...


            and there are so many classes that ONLY amateurs can compete in, maybe we need a division for ONLY pros?? why not? I agree with the previous posting that if it wasn't such a big deal to give up your amateur status less ppl would cheat.... but its really sad when you have to give up all the medal classes and such.
            www.millcreekfarm.net
            **RIP Kickstart aka Char 12/2/2009**

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Serah View Post
              ....but shouldn't our legislation be able to assume that if you can jump around a GP course you should be plenty capable to jump around at 3'-3'6" flawlessly???
              I would have to disagree. I can think of plenty of people who are competetive in the grand prixs, but could not navigate a hunter course to save their life.
              *~*Jessica*~*

              www.kbf.com

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Waterlyn View Post
                I would have to disagree. I can think of plenty of people who are competetive in the grand prixs, but could not navigate a hunter course to save their life.
                THEN THEY SHOULDN'T BE RIDING IN GRAND PRIXS!!!!!!!
                www.millcreekfarm.net
                **RIP Kickstart aka Char 12/2/2009**

                Comment


                • Originally posted by xxHorseLoverxx View Post
                  So I just read through this thread and have some questions which some of you may be willing to answer:

                  My amateur daughter rides only her own horses at every horse show she attends. She is a jumper.
                  We have recently bought a property that has a house and a barn. We want to have some boarders on this property.
                  If we do get any boarders that pay us for board will that jeopardize her amateur status?
                  If she hacks/exercises any of the boarded horses on our property (for instance if the owner is unable to come out one day) can that jeopardize her amateur status.
                  If my daughter helps her trainer at a horse show by setting jumps in a warm up arena for another one of her trainer's clients - can that jeopardize her amateur status?
                  Just wondering if any of my questions apply to current USEF rules and/or proposed USEF rule changes.
                  Thanks in advance for any advice.
                  Under current rules, your daughter cannot ride any horses you are paid to board for any reason and keep her amateur status.

                  My guess is that she can act as jump crew as long as she is only moving jumps at the direction of the rider or trainer and not giving any advice to a rider - but, this might be misinterpreted by spectators.
                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by poltroon View Post
                    Under current rules, your daughter cannot ride any horses you are paid to board for any reason and keep her amateur status.

                    My guess is that she can act as jump crew as long as she is only moving jumps at the direction of the rider or trainer and not giving any advice to a rider - but, this might be misinterpreted by spectators.
                    Thank you very much for your answers.
                    If she does not hack and/or exercise any horses, other than her own horses, then it would be o.k. if we have boarders on our property?? We would not want boarders on our property if it will jeopardize her amateur status.
                    Thank you again.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Serah View Post
                      THEN THEY SHOULDN'T BE RIDING IN GRAND PRIXS!!!!!!!
                      Agreed, hunters aren't hard at all compared to a Grand Prix. Everyline is set on stride, only eight fences etc. Grand Prix have lines set on half strides, tricky turns not to mention the fences are atleast a foot higher and wider. If someone posseses the accuracy to get around a course with 1.50m plus spreads then they can get around a hunter course respectably. Especially if the have a nice hunter horse. And if they can't then they have no business being in a Grand Prix..or even a 4ft jumper class

                      Comment


                      • i don't agree with the change

                        I feel like the amateur rule is over rated. I show in the A/A's; however, with the changes I will no longer be able to. My dad owns the horse farm and there are boarders there....I do not get the money; however, I do take care of the place. Also, I have a pony for sale and I believe (I could be wrong though) that as an Amateur you cannot receive the money for pretty much anything. I feel that the amateur rule should be based on your riding not so much your job...now I understand you should not be able to ride/show/train for money, but why should you be exculded for being a groom or something of those sorts? There are not enough classes and not really any equitation classes out there for someone that may not be able to compete with the pro's but cannot be considered an amateur.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          Originally posted by xxHorseLoverxx View Post
                          So I just read through this thread and have some questions which some of you may be willing to answer:

                          My amateur daughter rides only her own horses at every horse show she attends. She is a jumper.
                          We have recently bought a property that has a house and a barn. We want to have some boarders on this property.
                          If we do get any boarders that pay us for board will that jeopardize her amateur status?.
                          As long as it is ONLY board she is OK, as long as she never rides the boarded horses
                          If she hacks/exercises any of the boarded horses on our property (for instance if the owner is unable to come out one day) can that jeopardize her amateur status.
                          That would immediately make her "not an amateur " under USEF rules.
                          If my daughter helps her trainer at a horse show by setting jumps in a warm up arena for another one of her trainer's clients - can that jeopardize her amateur status?
                          OK under USEF rules, may be covered by other rules in CA
                          Just wondering if any of my questions apply to current USEF rules and/or proposed USEF rule changes.
                          Thanks in advance for any advice.
                          All covered under current rules, not affected by the proposed rules changes.
                          Janet

                          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            Originally posted by JustMyStyle1206 View Post
                            I feel like the amateur rule is over rated. I show in the A/A's; however, with the changes I will no longer be able to. My dad owns the horse farm and there are boarders there....I do not get the money; however, I do take care of the place. Also, I have a pony for sale and I believe (I could be wrong though) that as an Amateur you cannot receive the money for pretty much anything. I feel that the amateur rule should be based on your riding not so much your job...now I understand you should not be able to ride/show/train for money, but why should you be exculded for being a groom or something of those sorts? There are not enough classes and not really any equitation classes out there for someone that may not be able to compete with the pro's but cannot be considered an amateur.
                            Suggest you READ the rules.
                            Managing a boarding barn- as long as you don't RIDE any of the horses is OK.
                            Selling a horse you OWN is OK.
                            Being a groom is OK

                            The first line of the amateur rules says:.
                            R1306 Amateur Status.
                            1. Regardless of one’s equestrian skills and/or accomplishments, a person is an amateur
                            for all competitions conducted under Federation rules who after his/her 18th birthday, as
                            defined in GR101, has not engaged in any of the following activities which would make
                            him/her a professional.
                            Last edited by Janet; Sep. 22, 2008, 11:07 PM.
                            Janet

                            chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                            Comment


                            • If people stopped paying ammys, wouldn't the problem be solved? Why would anyone want to pay an ammy?

                              Comment


                              • I don't think this is the question to be asking....

                                Originally posted by Eyemadonkee View Post
                                If people stopped paying ammys, wouldn't the problem be solved? Why would anyone want to pay an ammy?
                                The real question to be asking is "Why do people want to REMAIN ammy's?'
                                -
                                I believe the answer to this is classes to show horses they have for sale in the hunters against the people looking to buy them, the high dollar hunters are usually bought by the 3'-3'6 hunter rider who wants to qualify for finals, and in the jumper ring there is no prize money till you get to MINI PRIX's and in some areas Grand Prix's other than the tokens of Add Back money, if you're a pro. But if your an Ammy, then there is the Classics to shoot for, with a horse not quite talented enough for Mini's or Grand Prix's.
                                " iCOTH " window/bumper stickers. Wood Routed Stall and Farm Signs
                                http://www.bluemooncustomsigns.com

                                Comment


                                • Thank you Janet for clarifying and interpreting for me regarding boarding and amateurs. I always understood that my amateur daughter does not and cannot ride someone else's horse at horse shows but was not clear on hacking someone elses horse at home.
                                  Reasons my daughter wants to remain an ammy:
                                  She is 20 and no where near ready to train/teach.
                                  She is just starting grand prix's so winning may be a long time from now.
                                  The JR/AO jumping divisions, depending on what part of the country she is competing in, is still good competition for her.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by grandprixjump View Post
                                    The real question to be asking is "Why do people want to REMAIN ammy's?'
                                    -
                                    I believe the answer to this is classes to show horses they have for sale in the hunters against the people looking to buy them, the high dollar hunters are usually bought by the 3'-3'6 hunter rider who wants to qualify for finals, and in the jumper ring there is no prize money till you get to MINI PRIX's and in some areas Grand Prix's other than the tokens of Add Back money, if you're a pro. But if your an Ammy, then there is the Classics to shoot for, with a horse not quite talented enough for Mini's or Grand Prix's.
                                    If you want to show equitation, you have to be an Ammy.
                                    Not all shows have classes where a pro with a kind but ordinary 3' hunter is competitive.
                                    Open classes tend to be held on weekdays instead of on weekends.
                                    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

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