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Proposed changes to amateur rules

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  • #41
    Originally posted by shedllybip View Post
    "Allows the use of his or her name, photograph or other form of personal association as a horseman in connection with any advertisement or article to be sold; whether it be for remuneration or promotion of one’s name/benefit."

    So by this, can i take a photo of a professional showing a horse and use that photo in an ad for my tack shop with my name down as a photo credit? I find this a little confusing!
    My understanding is that a company can not use a picture of Suzie the Ammy as part of their advertising...regardless if the person is being paid or only being reimbursed for their expenses. No use of an amateur rider in advertising.
    "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"

    Comment


    • #42
      So a picture of me and my horse taken by a pro photographer - i purchased the photo- cannot be used in an ad for my tack shop? No money has passed hands except for my purchase of the photo.
      So i can't use either a photo taken by me or with me in it as an ad for my tack shop?
      www.thehuntinghorn.com

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by shedllybip View Post
        So a picture of me and my horse taken by a pro photographer - i purchased the photo- cannot be used in an ad for my tack shop? No money has passed hands except for my purchase of the photo.
        So i can't use either a photo taken by me or with me in it as an ad for my tack shop?
        When you say "your" do you mean you own the tack shop? That may change things.

        You can use a photo you took (but depending who's in it & their status). Being a photographer doesn't affect your ammy status.

        You need to formally write a letter to USEF asking with all the details included to get clarification.
        "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by poltroon View Post
          Juniors are their own separate category, and I think that works well.

          As for the junior who is advertising herself as a stand alone professional, well, I'm surprised she has any business, but I don't see that that's any more unfair than riding against someone whose family has a net worth of hundreds of millions of dollars.

          The world changes in a gazillion ways when you turn 18.
          Actually - the world doesn't change very much when you turn 18 - at least not for a lot of kids. In general, most 18 yo kids are still dependent on their parents for support, are still in school, and are still not legally allowed to drink. They are legally adults....

          As to the riding thing... to me it makes litlle sense that juniors can earn money (or receive things of monetary value like boarding and lessons) and ride their trainers horses as juniors/amateurs but the minute they turn 18 the same activities make them professionals.

          I am not saying one is right and the other is wrong - I am just saying that the distinction for juniors versus adults doesn't make sense. Not all juniors have the same opportunities or access but they all compete together - for adults the rules are different. I just haven't heard a reason that sufficiently explains the difference to me.

          Comment


          • #45
            Originally posted by Jumphigh83 View Post
            The junior one is kind of like applying the saddlebred rules to the arabs....similar yet wholly different. Juniors are not amateurs (duh!) so applying the amateur rule to them is , well like comparing apples to oranges. Anyone who "hires" a junior and believes they are getting the experience and expertise of a real, seasoned professional is only fooling themselves! Let the kid advertise as a pro she/he is only making themselves look ridiculous. The other two seem really do-able. I know so many "amateurs" that advertise "sales" and conduct themselves as "amateurs" while selling and riding other peoples horses. That might tighten that up!
            i disagree. even if u are under 18 u are not allowed to get paid to ride. it hink in the rule book it says, "paid tokens of appreciation" or something similar.
            P=N
            If you run out of patience, you run out of nice.

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by shedllybip View Post
              So a picture of me and my horse taken by a pro photographer - i purchased the photo- cannot be used in an ad for my tack shop? No money has passed hands except for my purchase of the photo.
              So i can't use either a photo taken by me or with me in it as an ad for my tack shop?
              That's a good question and maybe you should add your comment to the USEF comment site as well. For example, I know a lot of Realtors who use photos of themselves with their horses. Insurance agents, too. Anyone who owns a business and does horses might want to advertise in a horse magazine, and naturally use a photo of themselves riding.

              And what about in the Dover Saddlery catalog? They have pictures of some of their staff that rides on the inside cover. I think it's cool to see that... I don't think they are any less amateurs because their photos are used that way.

              Or for that matter... what about all those "Congratulations" ads that run in certain magazines, with Trainer X congratulating Amateur Client Y on their win at Big Show Z. Those ads would certainly be covered.

              Mmmm. I understand the intent of the rule, but now I am starting to think it may have unintended consequences.
              If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

              Comment


              • #47
                I want to go to a big show, win a Ammy Classic and...

                Thank my Sponsor B.M.G., I can get away with it to my knowledge and NOT get in trouble.... I could be in the trouble with use of pics too, I own my own business and could at some time have a pic of me standing with my own trailer I have worked on to show the quality of the work I do with my horse in the pic with me....

                I OWN B.M.G.
                " iCOTH " window/bumper stickers. Wood Routed Stall and Farm Signs
                http://www.bluemooncustomsigns.com

                Comment


                • #48
                  This part will certainly put a damper on horse magazines everywhere!

                  "d. Allows the use of his or her name, photograph or other form of personal association as a horseman in connection with any advertisement or article to be sold; whether it be for remuneration or promotion of one’s name/benefit."

                  That bit about articles is just.plain.dumb. It would even affect many of the articles published in USEF's own freaking magazine!

                  Every "how to" article or book includes, well, "how to" pictures, so there has to be a model. And that's pretty much always someone's student, often an amateur.

                  It's doubly dumb when you realize that you can still write magazine articles and books and be considered an amateur, but if you appear in photos accompanying said magazine article or in the book, you're not an amateur.

                  So, given this rule, every magazine that profiles an amateur rider and includes a picture of said amateur rider has now turned the amateur into a professional.

                  Dumb. Really, really dumb.
                  Congratulate me! My CANTER cutie is an honor student at Goofball University!

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Oy. I'm getting a headache from all this.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by juststartingout View Post
                      I am not sure that it does or does not serve anyone to tighten the junior rules - I think more accurately it would solve some problems and create others. However, I do think that it is more than a little bit silly that your "legal" behavior as a junior/amateur become "illegal" the day you turn 18 - it simply doesn't make any sense.
                      That was what I was thinking...why allow for some and not others? Regardless of turning 18. It isn't that hard to believe that people don't abide by the amateur status rules when they didn't apply the rules to them for so many years. Both juniors and adults gain the same benefit of riding other horses, so I think it would be easiest and best if all rules applied to everyone.

                      People should ride horses to ride if they are an amateur. If they make the choice that they would like to explore riding as a profession, they can try that.

                      I just know so many people that are young adults that feel the pro versus ammy rules don't apply to them...I think making one rule for everyone would make this transition a lot easier.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        I have sent an objection and received a response that indicates that the rule change is a done deal. Not a proposal. Just a farce.

                        Thank you, please send in your annual dues before Nov. 1.

                        kthxbai. USEF

                        Response below from the director of regulation, note the active tense:
                        Thank you for your comments. Unfortunately, the provision in this rule that has been deleted has been done so because it is too broad and contradictory in some respects to other provisions in the rule. It would seem as though if you are riding a horse owned by someone else and are not getting paid to train or for professional activities that it would be logical the owner could pay the show directly and then there would never be a question about whether you were getting “expenses without profit.” Again, that statement is far too broad and as I stated above and in the intent, is the reason for the deletion.

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          so this whole thing is a moot point?
                          www.thehuntinghorn.com

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by SaddleFitterVA View Post
                            I have sent an objection and received a response that indicates that the rule change is a done deal. Not a proposal. Just a farce.

                            Thank you, please send in your annual dues before Nov. 1.

                            kthxbai. USEF

                            Response below from the director of regulation, note the active tense:
                            Thank you for your comments. Unfortunately, the provision in this rule that has been deleted has been done so because it is too broad and contradictory in some respects to other provisions in the rule. It would seem as though if you are riding a horse owned by someone else and are not getting paid to train or for professional activities that it would be logical the owner could pay the show directly and then there would never be a question about whether you were getting “expenses without profit.” Again, that statement is far too broad and as I stated above and in the intent, is the reason for the deletion.
                            Umm ... OK. So in other words, the owner of the horse can no longer pay the show directly for the entry fees? Would that not, then, defeat the purpose of the AA hunters, unless one was showing the horse in violation of the amateur rules? Not that anyone would ever do that, of course.

                            Unless, of course, Saddlefitter, you received a response about another part of the allegedly proposed rule that I didn't catch.
                            Congratulate me! My CANTER cutie is an honor student at Goofball University!

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              They need to come out with the dummys guide to usef amateur rules...

                              So what you are saying is these changes are a done deal is that correct?
                              I want to be like Barbie because that bitch has everything!

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by SaddleFitterVA View Post
                                I have sent an objection and received a response that indicates that the rule change is a done deal. Not a proposal. Just a farce.

                                Thank you, please send in your annual dues before Nov. 1.

                                kthxbai. USEF

                                Response below from the director of regulation, note the active tense:
                                Thank you for your comments. Unfortunately, the provision in this rule that has been deleted has been done so because it is too broad and contradictory in some respects to other provisions in the rule. It would seem as though if you are riding a horse owned by someone else and are not getting paid to train or for professional activities that it would be logical the owner could pay the show directly and then there would never be a question about whether you were getting “expenses without profit.” Again, that statement is far too broad and as I stated above and in the intent, is the reason for the deletion.
                                My interpretation of the not-very-well-written blue sentences from USEF is that you are OK riding someone else's horse if they pay the show office and other bills directly but not if you pay some or all of the bills and are reimbursed totally or in part later by the owner.
                                The Evil Chem Prof

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by Beezer View Post
                                  "d. Allows the use of his or her name, photograph or other form of personal association as a horseman in connection with any advertisement or article to be sold; whether it be for remuneration or promotion of one’s name/benefit."

                                  That bit about articles is just.plain.dumb. It would even affect many of the articles published in USEF's own freaking magazine!

                                  Every "how to" article or book includes, well, "how to" pictures, so there has to be a model. And that's pretty much always someone's student, often an amateur.

                                  It's doubly dumb when you realize that you can still write magazine articles and books and be considered an amateur, but if you appear in photos accompanying said magazine article or in the book, you're not an amateur.

                                  So, given this rule, every magazine that profiles an amateur rider and includes a picture of said amateur rider has now turned the amateur into a professional.

                                  Dumb. Really, really dumb.
                                  Again, the language is killing us here. I thought Portia was helping them to write the rulebook with better language!

                                  As I understand it, article, in this context, is not a magazine article, but an item to be sold, like a saddle pad or helmet.
                                  If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Reading between the lines, this is what I am guessing has happened:

                                    Big Name Rider X was riding as an amateur, even though she was sponsored by a company selling services. Her defense was that Company Y was merely paying expenses and that she was getting no profit for her pictures appearing in their ads.

                                    The problem is, that the rule changes as they are rewriting them are too broad and are going to either make scofflaws of us all or snare adult amateur who ever swings a leg over anyone else's horse.

                                    So let's see what we can do here. What are the situations we're finding that we think should be allowed?

                                    - An amateur rider can use her image and name in advertisements for her own business, so long as the business does not violate the amateur rule. Possible examples: realtor, insurance agent, investment advisor, CPA, veterinarian, tack shop, equine equipment. So how do we define "own business"? If you're 19 and you're a minority owner in a company that makes saddles, can your image be used in that case?

                                    How should the expenses work? I think it's clear you should not get expenses for your own horse. How do we write the rule so that my friend can pay me gas money to haul her horse with mine to a show, and I can pop on it and hack the horse around when I get there because she can't come until the next day? Or it's OK that I hacked it last week when she had an unexpected business meeting? Yeah, you're not going to catch me - but darn it, I want to stay within the rules.

                                    Or do I just thank my lucky stars that since I'm an eventer, I don't care if I keep my amateur status?
                                    If you are allergic to a thing, it is best not to put that thing in your mouth, particularly if the thing is cats. - Lemony Snicket

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #58
                                      Originally posted by Smiles View Post
                                      They need to come out with the dummys guide to usef amateur rules...

                                      So what you are saying is these changes are a done deal is that correct?
                                      No, AFAIK they are not a "done deal" until the annual meting in January.
                                      Janet

                                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #59
                                        Originally posted by poltroon View Post
                                        Reading between the lines, this is what I am guessing has happened:

                                        Big Name Rider X was riding as an amateur, even though she was sponsored by a company selling services. Her defense was that Company Y was merely paying expenses and that she was getting no profit for her pictures appearing in their ads.
                                        See for instance, this thread
                                        http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/sho...d.php?t=161560
                                        and this one
                                        http://chronicleforums.com/Forum/sho...d.php?t=133864
                                        Janet

                                        chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                        Comment

                                        • Original Poster

                                          #60
                                          Originally posted by Beezer View Post
                                          Umm ... OK. So in other words, the owner of the horse can no longer pay the show directly for the entry fees? Would that not, then, defeat the purpose of the AA hunters, unless one was showing the horse in violation of the amateur rules? Not that anyone would ever do that, of course.

                                          Unless, of course, Saddlefitter, you received a response about another part of the allegedly proposed rule that I didn't catch.
                                          I read it differently.

                                          I think that what they mean is that it is OK if the owner pays the show directly. Then there is no need for a rule permitting the owner to pay the rider who pays the show.

                                          But that doesn't deal with non-show situations, such as gas money to drive out to excercise a fiend's horse while she is on vacation- I don't think it is reasonable that the frien pay teh gas station directly while she is on vacation !!!
                                          Janet

                                          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                          Comment

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