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Lillie Keenan No Stirrups Question

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  • And, not to stir the pot here, but go look at pictures and videos of C Coast Z or Monterray and then go look at Jersey Boy, Inclusive, Brunello, Miss Lucy etc. There is a very obvious difference in jumping styles - sure, Coast and Monterey are rounder than they would be in the eq ring, but still not jumping in what would be considered fantastic hunter style.

    -hides-

    Comment


    • ^ Meh.

      Monterrey and C Coast Z seem to be holding their own just fine against the others.

      Not to mention that the others are being ridden by top professionals with decades of experience, who might be giving their mounts a little more help than even the most talented 14 year old.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MHM View Post
        ^ Meh.

        Monterrey and C Coast Z seem to be holding their own just fine against the others.

        Not to mention that the others are being ridden by top professionals with decades of experience, who might be giving their mounts a little more help than even the most talented 14 year old.
        Well they obviously hold their own, yes. That wasn't really my point. My point was that some horses jump rounder than others, regardless of what ring you put them in, and regardless of a release with contact or more of a "hunter release". It quite obvious in seeing it in person, stills and video that most of the hunters in hunter derbies are jumping using more of their body that the eq horses.

        I'm not knocking Lillie or the horses. I was just sill attempting to prove a point to whoever said eq horses are forced to jump the way they do.

        Comment


        • In case it wasn't at all clear, I was being sarcastic by saying C Coast Z is "just ok."
          ~Veronica
          "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
          http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

          Comment


          • Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
            In case it wasn't at all clear, I was being sarcastic by saying C Coast Z is "just ok."
            No. Way.

            Personally, I'd love to have an equitaton horse that " didn't work out" in that job so that he won the $100,000 Hunter Derby Finals. But I'm funny that way.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by MHM View Post
              No. Way.

              Personally, I'd love to have an equitaton horse that " didn't work out" in that job so that he won the $100,000 Hunter Derby Finals. But I'm funny that way.
              I got a strange PM which made me think tone didn't universally come thru

              I'll take a C Coast Z anyday!
              ~Veronica
              "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
              http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

              Comment


              • Originally posted by vxf111 View Post

                I'll take a C Coast Z anyday!
                He was imported by a friend of mine. I'll ask him to keep an eye out for the next one for you!

                Comment


                • I guess the hostility may be based on that one "trainer". She was, IMO, the paradigm of all the bad trainers that get talked about on this board.

                  1) She had been in trouble with USEF over violating their amateur rules when she was in Florida.

                  2) She sold at least one permanently broken horse to someone who was a very good friend and sponsor for her when she first arrived here and apparently just said "caveat emptor, sucker".

                  3) She seemed to lie about many things related to horses and her business and her previous history.

                  4) She drugged a LOT.

                  5) She brought or tried to bring Florida practices and prices to this poverty stricken area. She didn't last more than three years.

                  6) And the final factor was the things she was willing to do to horses and ponies in order to get them show ready.

                  She'd do anything to get an advantage, and IMO was almost totally lacking in ethics.

                  But her kids were successful in the Memphis area in a very short time on her horses. Memphis has produced some damn fine riders. Her girls were showing against Hayhill Barnhill at the time, among others, and were able more than hold their own.

                  I guess I just figure that she isn't a one of a kind, given the discussions here.
                  "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                  Thread killer Extraordinaire

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by MHM View Post
                    No. Way.

                    Personally, I'd love to have an equitaton horse that " didn't work out" in that job so that he won the $100,000 Hunter Derby Finals. But I'm funny that way.
                    Who wouldn't?!!!!! My point was that it was seemingly recognized that "top equitation horse" might not have been his niche as originally thought, so they found another job for him. And they clearly scored big time!

                    And vxf111, the sarcasm of your post definitely came through to me when I read it!

                    Comment


                    • I guess the hostility may be based on that one "trainer".
                      No. The hostility is because people come onto the BB's and trash talk the riding style of children.

                      This is particularly gross and ugly when it's coming from adults who admit they have "no idea" what's considered good equitation.

                      It's tiresome.

                      Another point is that there are shady and unethical trainers in every single horse sport. I'm sorry you met one, but that behavior is not necessarily applicable across the board. It might be enlightening if you were to actually watch a good eq trainer teach, or take some lessons.
                      ---
                      They're small hearts.

                      Comment


                      • I did not trash talk the riding style of children. I mentioned that the releases didn't look like releases and then brought up the unnatural head positions of the horses in the photos and the non-moving heads of the horses in the videos that I watched . The children ride the horses that someone else has trained to jump with non-moving heads. If this is considered good for equitation, then equitation is seriously lacking in horsemanship and horse welfare consideration.

                        BTW, I am taking lessons now from a Pony Club HA graduate and eventing specialist.
                        "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                        Thread killer Extraordinaire

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                          I did not trash talk the riding style of children. I mentioned that the releases didn't look like releases and then brought up the unnatural head positions of the horses in the photos and the non-moving heads of the horses in the videos that I watched .
                          Actually, you did. When you use phrases like "death grip" you are being deliberately nasty. No one was using a "death grip." And we're talking about kids.

                          The children ride the horses that someone else has trained to jump with non-moving heads.
                          Do you know for a fact that ALL of these children are on horses that other people have trained? And what's the relevance here, exactly? A LOT of people - in a LOT of disciplines - ride horses that "someone else" has trained. This is not the criteria for being a good rider and is actually irrelevant to what goes on in the show ring.

                          If this is considered good for equitation, then equitation is seriously lacking in horsemanship and horse welfare consideration.
                          Please further explain this. Is this because "someone else" trained the horses or because you don't like their release? Or are you just being painfully melodramatic again?

                          BTW, I am taking lessons now from a Pony Club HA graduate and eventing specialist.
                          So? That doesn't sound like an "equitation specialist" to me. I've known plenty of pony club graduates that quite frankly couldn't teach RIDING if their lives depended on it. The reason that I suggested that you ride with a good eq trainer - someone who specifically trains riders to ride in the equitation at rated horse shows - was so that you could gain a better understanding of the theory behind these classes and what it takes to prepare for them, as well as how most people actually do it.

                          Because to be perfectly honest, I'm hearing a lot of speculation from you, and not a lot of it seems to be backed up with actual experience at this level or riding over these courses.
                          ---
                          They're small hearts.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ynl063w View Post
                            Who wouldn't?!!!!! My point was that it was seemingly recognized that "top equitation horse" might not have been his niche as originally thought, so they found another job for him. And they clearly scored big time!

                            And vxf111, the sarcasm of your post definitely came through to me when I read it!
                            Actually, IIRC he did very very nicely for her as an eq horse. So it wasn't the case that he was bought for eq and didn't pan out. He was perfectly capable. Turns out, he's also capable of being a top derby horse too. NICE HORSE.
                            ~Veronica
                            "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                            http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                            Comment


                            • Horses who jump have to be able to use their heads and necks to balance. It is unnatural for a horse to jump a fence and not stick out its nose in landing. If the head doesn't change position during the jump, someone had to train it not to do so or the rider is keeping the head from moving forward and out.

                              I said "death grip" in my first post because the horses' heads in the COTH photos were not in what I would consider a natural position at that stage of the jump. I assumed that the reason was that the rider was keeping the head from moving forward and out in preparation for landing--I.e, no release. After watching the videos of the Big Equitation Finals for the past four or five years, it became apparent that the horses' heads rarely moved at all over jumps--takeoff or landing. So the riders could well be releasing all that the horse needed to get over the jump. But since a immobile head while jumping is, IMO, by definition unnatural, either the release is not allowing the horse to use its head and neck or the horse has been trained not to use them naturally.

                              Want to explain why its good equitation for the horse not to use its head when it jumps?

                              There are zillions of youtube videos of jumping horses--free jumping and with riders. Watch some and see if an immobile head is natural.
                              "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                              Thread killer Extraordinaire

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                There are zillions of youtube videos of jumping horses--free jumping and with riders. Watch some and see if an immobile head is natural.
                                Riding horses around courses of colorfully painted jumps with braids in their manes isn't exactly natural either.

                                Comment


                                • http://i48.tinypic.com/35ciwxh.gif

                                  Seriously. Why do I feel like everything that's been written hasn't been read by person it was written for?
                                  "Aye God, Woodrow..."

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                    Horses who jump have to be able to use their heads and necks to balance. It is unnatural for a horse to jump a fence and not stick out its nose in landing. If the head doesn't change position during the jump, someone had to train it not to do so or the rider is keeping the head from moving forward and out.

                                    I said "death grip" in my first post because the horses' heads in the COTH photos were not in what I would consider a natural position at that stage of the jump. I assumed that the reason was that the rider was keeping the head from moving forward and out in preparation for landing--I.e, no release. After watching the videos of the Big Equitation Finals for the past four or five years, it became apparent that the horses' heads rarely moved at all over jumps--takeoff or landing. So the riders could well be releasing all that the horse needed to get over the jump. But since a immobile head while jumping is, IMO, by definition unnatural, either the release is not allowing the horse to use its head and neck or the horse has been trained not to use them naturally.

                                    Want to explain why its good equitation for the horse not to use its head when it jumps?

                                    There are zillions of youtube videos of jumping horses--free jumping and with riders. Watch some and see if an immobile head is natural.
                                    Can you post a link to a video of a horse and rider jumping a course where you think the horse's head is moving naturally? Because I don't see much movement in THIS horse's head after the jumps:

                                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMVMaH9aWHw

                                    and this is no equitation horse.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by ynl063w View Post
                                      Can you post a link to a video of a horse and rider jumping a course where you think the horse's head is moving naturally? Because I don't see much movement in THIS horse's head after the jumps:

                                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMVMaH9aWHw
                                      Plus it cross cantered a couple of times. Clearly an awful animal.

                                      Comment


                                      • This is one of the oddest threads I've read on COTH. Really. Certainly not the craziest, but indeed odd.



                                        Originally posted by ynl063w View Post
                                        :

                                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMVMaH9aWHw

                                        and this is no equitation horse.
                                        Thanks for posting this video. I have been working a lot on making balanced, quick turns - keeping the shoulders (the horse's) up and not loosing the outside hind - and that video showed some excellent examples of good turns!!
                                        Unrepentant carb eater

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                          I did not trash talk the riding style of children. I mentioned that the releases didn't look like releases and then brought up the unnatural head positions of the horses in the photos and the non-moving heads of the horses in the videos that I watched . The children ride the horses that someone else has trained to jump with non-moving heads. If this is considered good for equitation, then equitation is seriously lacking in horsemanship and horse welfare consideration.

                                          BTW, I am taking lessons now from a Pony Club HA graduate and eventing specialist.
                                          Considering the number of horses that get cracked in the teeth, whacked in the back or crashed/flipped by eventing riders who can't see a distance; or who hump and pump their way around showjumping (and I know of what I speak, evented for many years on both coasts), I'd say you have a seriously skewed view of what constitutes a "horse welfare" issue.

                                          How do walking bareback dressage lessons with an eventer provide any experience at all with hunters, jumpers or equitation?

                                          It's amazing the things people can deduce living in an internet bubble without any real-world experience or exposure.

                                          Comment

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