• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Lillie Keenan No Stirrups Question

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #61
    Originally posted by findeight View Post
    Thats not exactly perfect Eq either. Rider, whoever it is, does not appear to be 14-16 years old either as are all these kids getting dissed.

    I also get a little tired at all the "why does everybody ride bad" when somebody posts a thread like this complimenting some exceptional up and coming young riders...I wonder how those who rode back in "the good old days" as young teens would have liked to be the brunt of endless, public fault finding?

    It sure is not like what it was "back then".
    The rider is French. It was taken during the 1950's.

    That's amazing EQ! Look at the angles. Look as the horse jumps and is putting the rider up in correct form. That's amazing! Better then laying on the neck looking like a praying mantis with stirrups way too long.

    Here's one of Bill Steinkraus

    http://69.89.31.130/~thehors5/thm/wp...inkraus_11.jpg
    "Common sense is so rare nowadays, it should be classified as a super power."-Craig Bear Laubscher

    Comment


    • #62
      For those who wanted to see a video, CVIDTV posted one of Isabella Norton. I think she finished 8th or 9th?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otJkgCDowfA

      Comment


      • #63
        I imagine every one of those riders you've posted photos of have some not so great photos as well. You can't catch everybody at a perfect angle. And I imagine those riders in those classes, particularly Lillie and Tori, have worked incredibly hard to reach perfection and will continue to. You can't evaluate perfect eq in the moment as somebody is jumping. You can only see a lot of those details in photos. Equitation should be based upon how effectively you work with your horse and manage that particularly horse. That seems to be a better end goal than just having a perfect position. Form follows function. If you have perfect eq but can't find 8 or can't get a horse to jump well it really doesn't matter that you look perfect.

        Comment


        • #64
          Of course every rider isn't going to be perfect all the time over huge fences.

          BTW, the picture of Lillie over that 3'6 jump is gorgeous! Love the leg and flat back. The hands look good and is going to follow the crest. Jumping w/o stirrups is very hard but Lillie makes it look easy.
          "Common sense is so rare nowadays, it should be classified as a super power."-Craig Bear Laubscher

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by horserider12
            yes it was, and spurring the pony in the air occurs why?? because her leg is turned out. and that would be a position problem. She was actually doing the ponies in that picture not the short stirrup. All I was trying to point out is that the position a child has at 8 is far from a predictor of the future.
            Time to nitpick a 8+ year old photo that didn't even necessarily clearly depict the evil for which it was held up as the example of all evil... again? Really?

            Maybe the lesson is that the success a kid has at a young age can be a predictor for the future. IIRC she won plenty on ponies at a tender age and now appears to be in the top eschalon of riders mopping the floor with everyone in her teens. "Turned out leg" be dammned She could ride circles around me and most everyone else on this board on a donkey and deep down, we all know it.
            ~Veronica
            "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
            http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

            Comment


            • #66
              Thank goodness Lillie and her trainers got the benefit of the BB wisdom then and now. Otherwise no doubt Lillie wouldn't be able to ride her way out of a paper bag.
              Last edited by MHM; Oct. 4, 2012, 09:28 AM.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by MHM View Post
                Thank goodness Lillie and her trainers got the benefit of the BB wisdom then and now. Otherwise no doubt Lillie wouldn't be able to ride her way out of a paper bag.


                I just love that the armchair jockeys here seem to know that she was "spurring the pony" from one photo taken from a front angle. I'd love to see photos of everyone else take from the front. I don't think your toes are pointing directly ahead.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by ynl063w View Post
                  No, I'm not hostile; I just get so tired of the four billion threads/week about how bad hunter/equitation riders are today, when they all come from people who aren't able to provide evidence that they are doing/have ever done things the "right" way. If someone thinks those at the top of the discipline are doing everything wrong, that's fine, but that person should be prepared to provide evidence that he/she is in fact qualified to judge those at the top today, and can show all of us the RIGHT way to do it. Otherwise, why bother posting here?

                  I do realize that there is a lot to be improved upon, but I also understand that I am not a professional, I do not ride at the top level of the sport (and never will), and therefore I am not qualified to berate those who are in fact winning at the top levels for their shortcomings, whatever those might be. I prefer to watch those who ride better than I do and find things to learn from them.

                  I would love it if one of the resident dinosaurs on this forum would actually post videos of the perfect old days so we can all see what perfection looks like. Because, according to the dinosaurs here, we will never see it in person.

                  I do not have any videos handy, but look for GM's book: Hunt Seat Equitation. There you will see many pictures of beautiful eq. with lovely releases.

                  I do not know when it became OK for a rider to "jump over her hands". I did not see this class, but I am guessing that is what the posters above saw when they mentioned "no release". The rider is a) jumping up the neck, b) not releasing appropriately or c) both.

                  It makes me crazee when I see riders whose shoulders are in front of their hands in midair.

                  I have never been a equitation rider, but this is me in 1964, and this is how most people rode back then.


                  And this is me in 1981? 1982? trying to stay out of my horse's way after he makes a huge effort over this jump. The upper body is not correct, but I am still giving him a good release.
                  "He lives in a cocoon of solipsism"

                  Charles Krauthammer speaking about Trump

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post
                    I do not know when it became OK for a rider to "jump over her hands". I did not see this class, but I am guessing that is what the posters above saw when they mentioned "no release". The rider is a) jumping up the neck, b) not releasing appropriately or c) both.

                    It makes me crazee when I see riders whose shoulders are in front of their hands in midair.
                    I'm the first in line to get annoyed when horses are getting stiffed in the mouth, but that's not happening here, for 2 reasons.

                    One, equitation horses as specialists, who jump flat and head-high naturally and don't require a big release. Look at the photos to the right... none of those horses are getting stiffed in the mouth. Not one.

                    Two, riders riding with much shorter reins and more forward hands. Because these horses don't really use their heads/necks, very little movement is required other than to move the hands down a bit towards the neck. Big releases not required.

                    And three, because these courses are indoors, and technical, with short turns, riders are necessarily keeping a solid contact with the mouth so they can land and turn.

                    These same kids then go ride the hunters that really use their heads/necks, and give a big release. They ride the jumpers and give releases appropriate for the jump. Don't believe me? Go find a video of Lillie doing jumpers or hunters. She is equally capable with a following hand, an auto release, or a crest release as appropriate and needed.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Lord Helpus...that phot from the early 80's is gorgeous!!!
                      Save a life...be an organ donor! Visit www.Transplantbuddies.org

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Love your photos, LH, you have a wonderful lower leg. I'm getting nostalgic for the NHS at MSG.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by MHM View Post
                          Thank goodness Lillie and her trainers got the benefit of the BB wisdom then and now. Otherwise no doubt Lillie wouldn't be able to ride her way out of a paper bag.
                          Do you think if I post my picture and allow the group to tear it apart I could be the next Lillie Keenan??? Who knew it was that easy?!

                          Clearly my version of sarcasm

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by comingback View Post
                            Do you think if I post my picture and allow the group to tear it apart I could be the next Lillie Keenan??? Who knew it was that easy?!

                            Sure! As long as you have the same talent, work ethic, resources, and trainers. Piece of cake!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Tha Ridge View Post


                              I just love that the armchair jockeys here seem to know that she was "spurring the pony" from one photo taken from a front angle. I'd love to see photos of everyone else take from the front. I don't think your toes are pointing directly ahead.
                              Growing up my mom took tons of pictures of me and my ponies from where ever she was standing. The ones from the front...UGH!!!!!!!! So not flattering!! HAHA
                              Originally posted by JSwan
                              Prove it....Otherwise, you're just coming off as a whackjob.
                              Founding member of the "Not too Klassy for Boxed Wine" Clique

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Darkwave View Post
                                As a hunter/jumper rider, I never could figure out how you guys memorized your tests - those last a lot longer. And all the different letters.
                                Oh that takes a while, but we also have time to practice and memorize (like, weeks or months!). Though when I first showed Intro B back in 2010, I was terrified of forgetting my test, I actually memorized it backwards as well as the right way. Just in case!

                                But give me only a few minutes to walk a course and then chuck me in there? No. Fricken. Way. I forget what I did 30 minutes ago, sometimes!
                                RIP my beautiful Lola, ????–August 29, 2014

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post

                                  And this is me in 1981? 1982? trying to stay out of my horse's way after he makes a huge effort over this jump. The upper body is not correct, but I am still giving him a good release.
                                  Oh my goodness, what a lovely photo - and LOOK at your horse's KNEES!
                                  Blog chronicling our new eventing adventures: Riding With Scissors

                                  Comment

                                  • Original Poster

                                    #77
                                    Originally posted by Lord Helpus View Post


                                    And this is me in 1981? 1982? trying to stay out of my horse's way after he makes a huge effort over this jump. The upper body is not correct, but I am still giving him a good release.
                                    OMG! You're jumping in a top hat, and yet, you're still alive!
                                    I realize that I'm generalizing here, but as is often the case when I generalize, I don't care. ~ Dave Barry

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      In Lord Helpus's 1981 photo, look at the horse's head position over the jump. Then compare the ones in the Equitation photos. The first is what, IMO, would be normal and would require a real release. The modern horses just look WRONG to me. Horses need to be able to balance with their heads and necks when "stretching" over jumps and preparing for touch down. JMO.
                                      "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                      Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
                                        In Lord Helpus's 1981 photo, look at the horse's head position over the jump. Then compare the ones in the Equitation photos. The first is what, IMO, would be normal and would require a real release. The modern horses just look WRONG to me. Horses need to be able to balance with their heads and necks when "stretching" over jumps and preparing for touch down. JMO.
                                        Considering these horses are easily jumping very big, very technical courses with ease, I don't think they 'need' to stretch their necks down, regardless of whether you think it looks 'wrong'. And it's not modern horses, it's modern eq horses. They are bred, selected, and trained to have flat jumps

                                        Look at how well Lillie Keenan adjusts her riding between the three rings. The release and her position is so different, depending on the course, the horse, and the ring.

                                        Here's Lillie Keenan riding hunters
                                        http://www.othfarm.com/news/?id=156
                                        http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw...fq8vo1_500.png
                                        http://hitsshows.com/images/2011/600...tial_jump1.jpg

                                        And riding jumpers
                                        http://horsesinthesouth.com/blog/wp-...enan005965.jpg
                                        http://www.usefnetwork.com/images/ar...25/keenanz.jpg
                                        http://s3.amazonaws.com/cmi-niche/as...jpg?1314214971
                                        .

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          She is, without doubt a lovely rider who can do whatever the course and horse need. But I'm not seeing the head constrictions on the hunters or the jumpers. Why on equitation horses? Why would they be trained to jump like this, since it's clearly very unnatural. The jumpers have to be able to shorten, lengthen, and turn sharply and they do it with heads that aren't into their chests. In a way, it sort of reminds me of rollkur for dressage horses, who are so trained into their frame that they have lost the will to go in any other frame. Most of them can't even do a decent extended walk.

                                          It all has to do with submission, as a horse on close contact loses a good part of his vision.

                                          I'd also point out that 90% or more of the Big Equitation horses are imported WBs, and I'd almost bet the farm that no European WB breeder would ever breed for that jump. These horses are probably culls from breeding for the Olympic disciplines.
                                          "I'm a lumberjack, and I'm okay."
                                          Thread killer Extraordinaire

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X