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Dressage Person Goes to Hunter-Jumper Show ...

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  • Dressage Person Goes to Hunter-Jumper Show ...

    ... and has a great time. Just watching and visiting with old friends, not competing. This was a local schooling show.

    I have 4 questions:

    1) If you are the only one in your class, why would you be awarded second place and not first? Is it to do with points?

    2) If you are showing only in flat classes in a division, and are pinned, how does that affect everyone else's points if they are all showing in U/S and O/F classes in that division? or if you are showing in only the O/F classes?

    3) A young teen has moved to our DIY barn to take a year off from serious competing last year; now she is thinking she would like to go to some of the local schooling shows. She doesn't currently have a trainer. Can she compete anyway? Do you have to go to a show as a member of a trainer's team?

    4) When did Baucher snaffles start appearing in the h-j world?

    (As I have written this post I have changed the number of questions from "2" to "3" and now "4". I will leave it at 4.)
    Founder of the People Who Prefer COTH Over FB Clique
    People Who Hate to Rush to Kill Wildlife Clique!
    "I Sing Silly Songs to My Animals!" Clique

  • #2
    LOL,

    I have no IDEA what kind of hunter show you went to!

    1. I have never seen the only entrant in a class be awarded 2nd. Maybe it was an open card and there was someone else, you just didn't see their round? Or they didn't come to get their ribbon?

    2. At a lot of shows, you can pin in the undersaddle but those points only count for champion and reserve if you were top 3 over fences. Some schooling shows don't use these rules, and if there are 2 U/S and 1 O/F or 2 O/F you could end up champion and not pin over fences. I think that's bizarre, but different shows have different rules. At rated shows, if you have enough points over fences you might choose not to hack because you don't need to. Generally you're not forced to do the whole division (though sometimes you have to pay for it all).

    3. You don't need a trainer. It may help her to have a trainer coaching, but I've never ever known it to be REQUIRED for an open hunter/jumper show.

    4. I have never seen a baucher in a hunter class. Are you sue you saw a baucher and not an eggbutt?
    ~Veronica
    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Wellspotted View Post
      ... and has a great time. Just watching and visiting with old friends, not competing. This was a local schooling show.

      I have 4 questions:

      1) If you are the only one in your class, why would you be awarded second place and not first? Is it to do with points?
      No idea. Maybe they ran out of Blue ribbons

      2) If you are showing only in flat classes in a division, and are pinned, how does that affect everyone else's points if they are all showing in U/S and O/F classes in that division? or if you are showing in only the O/F classes?
      Not quite sure I understand what you are asking. In USEF shows, if you do not do at least one "over fences" class, your flat class points don't count. Depends on whether the schooling show follows USEF on this.

      3) A young teen has moved to our DIY barn to take a year off from serious competing last year; now she is thinking she would like to go to some of the local schooling shows. She doesn't currently have a trainer. Can she compete anyway? Do you have to go to a show as a member of a trainer's team?
      Same as in Dressage, SOMEONE has to sign the trainer line. Since it is DYI, she would be the trainer. No requirement to have someone else as "trainer" present.


      4) When did Baucher snaffles start appearing in the h-j world?
      AFAIK, most hunter judges still consider bauchers "unconventional", and will penalize for it. Jumpers can use any bit they want.

      (As I have written this post I have changed the number of questions from "2" to "3" and now "4". I will leave it at 4.)[/quote]
      Janet

      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Wellspotted View Post
        1) If you are the only one in your class, why would you be awarded second place and not first? Is it to do with points?
        Blue-Red Warmup, I bet. Scores over x points get a blue ribbon, scores under x points get a red ribbon. (I *think* x=70 usually but don't quote me...)

        Originally posted by Wellspotted View Post
        2) If you are showing only in flat classes in a division, and are pinned, how does that affect everyone else's points if they are all showing in U/S and O/F classes in that division? or if you are showing in only the O/F classes?
        It goes on points. So the division champion would be, for example, someone who was first over Courses A and B but was second to you in the hack.

        Originally posted by Wellspotted View Post
        3) A young teen has moved to our DIY barn to take a year off from serious competing last year; now she is thinking she would like to go to some of the local schooling shows. She doesn't currently have a trainer. Can she compete anyway? Do you have to go to a show as a member of a trainer's team?
        Does this young rider have experience over fences - other than goofing around w/ it at home? Does her horse have experience over fences? If the answer to either of these questions is "no", then just for safety's sake she needs a few lessons w/ a trainer who will be on the grounds.

        Originally posted by Wellspotted View Post
        4) When did Baucher snaffles start appearing in the h-j world?
        Never seen one in the hunters. Jumpers yes, hunters no.
        "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Definitely a Baucher. Definitely not an eggbutt or a kimberwick.

          (Someone else was using nonconventional stirrups and I overheard the comment that as it was a schooling show it was OK, so I'm assuming the same was the case with the bit. I'm actually surprised they're dressage-legal but that's a matter for another forum. )

          Thanks, everyone, for the replies.
          Founder of the People Who Prefer COTH Over FB Clique
          People Who Hate to Rush to Kill Wildlife Clique!
          "I Sing Silly Songs to My Animals!" Clique

          Comment


          • #6
            Sounds like a bit of an "anything goes" show. In which case, it's hard for any of us to tell you what the norms are cuz, um, anything goes.

            I have never seen a baucher in hunters. I have seen all a manner of c-r-a-z-y at "open" shows... but never a baucher!
            ~Veronica
            "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
            http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

            Comment


            • #7
              Some smaller schooling shows will play relatively fast and loose w/ the USEF tack and attire rules. I remember one where, after some discussion amongst trainers, show manager and judge, the 2'6" Hunter Hack class was permitted to wear martingales on the grounds that with a lot of kids on schoolies in the class, where they *would* after all be jumping even though just down one line, it might be a little safer that way for some of them.

              Glad you had a good time!
              "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

              Comment


              • #8
                1) If you are the only one in your class, why would you be awarded second place and not first? Is it to do with points?

                Seems weird to me. Maybe you didn't see the first round. Local schooling shows don't usually run from previous points.

                2) If you are showing only in flat classes in a division, and are pinned, how does that affect everyone else's points if they are all showing in U/S and O/F classes in that division? or if you are showing in only the O/F classes?

                How it works at my local shows is that if you don't ride all classes in a division you are not eligible for Champions. Complete division rider's points are tallied as normal and whoever is highest wins.

                3) A young teen has moved to our DIY barn to take a year off from serious competing last year; now she is thinking she would like to go to some of the local schooling shows. She doesn't currently have a trainer. Can she compete anyway? Do you have to go to a show as a member of a trainer's team?

                I competed for years without a trainer at local shows. Showed this year on my greenie too. I sign the 'owner', 'rider' and 'trainer' places. The women got a good laugh out of that. I told them I'm the mucker, groomer as well if they needed my signature a few more times My only advice, always have someone with you, incase something happens or you need to swap a class or even pee. Although and most smaller, local shows everyone is willing to pitch in. I had a fan club of seven at my babies first show and they were all helping other people that didn't have help.

                4) When did Baucher snaffles start appearing in the h-j world?

                I've never seen one at a hunter show. I'm sure at a schooling show it is not a big deal but they may have been marked down a bit if someone with a similar ride but more 'conventional' bit were against them.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Agree with all the above but for the bit. I have used one and had no judging problems with it.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Wellspotted View Post
                    .
                    I have 4 questions:

                    1) If you are the only one in your class, why would you be awarded second place and not first? Is it to do with points?
                    When I was judging at little shows, I would occasionally not give a first prize if I thought that the performance did not deserve the full # of points toward the championship.

                    2) If you are showing only in flat classes in a division, and are pinned, how does that affect everyone else's points if they are all showing in U/S and O/F classes in that division? or if you are showing in only the O/F classes?
                    Doesn't affect others' points at all.


                    3) A young teen has moved to our DIY barn to take a year off from serious competing last year; now she is thinking she would like to go to some of the local schooling shows. She doesn't currently have a trainer. Can she compete anyway? Do you have to go to a show as a member of a trainer's team?
                    Absolutely not, though she will need an adult to sign the trainer line on her entry. Since she's a young teen, someone will need to have driven her there anyhow.


                    4) When did Baucher snaffles start appearing in the h-j world?
                    I didn't know they weren't OK. Why wouldn't they be?
                    madeline
                    * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Baucher's are legal but they're unconventional and ithe assumption is that they indicate something isn't right about the horses contact hence the lowered points.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        The answers really depend on how the schooling show is run. Locally, you don't need to ride all the classes in a "division" to win a championship--I've skipped the flat a few times and still was champion.

                        The second but no first? Never seen that here in a H/J show...seems odd to me, like you missed something.

                        Trainer? You can be your own trainer. PNWJumper on here is her own trainer when she enters (at least on Horseshowtime.com's records...and no, I'm not stalking her, I just saw this the other day when I was checking who had entered a show to answer someone's question).

                        Baucher in the H/J--not "illegal", a bit unconventional, yes. However, I've used one and haven't been penalized (as far as I know!). Honestly, if the judge is focusing on your bit as you canter around, I'd be surprised. A good round is a good round.
                        Proud member of the "Don't rush to kill wildlife" clique!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by flashwhitelock View Post
                          Baucher's are legal but they're unconventional and ithe assumption is that they indicate something isn't right about the horses contact hence the lowered points.
                          Why would a Baucher be penalized if a pelham isn't? After all, a Baucher is just a pelham with no shank or curb chain....
                          madeline
                          * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thw rule is "nontraditional" bits can be penalized. A baucher is not a traditional hunter bit. It's not about what bits are mild, or function like one another-- it's just about tradition. Pelhams are classic "old skool" hunter bits. Bouches are not. Doesn't have to make sense, it's all up to the judge's discretion.

                            I have seen judges look at bits and I have seen stewards make comments for unconventional bits (it was a kimberwicke). And I am pretty sure I've seen horses not be used due to odd bit choice. I think judges do use this rule on ocassion.
                            ~Veronica
                            "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                            http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Madeline View Post
                              Why would a Baucher be penalized if a pelham isn't? After all, a Baucher is just a pelham with no shank or curb chain....
                              And a gag is just an eggbutt with holes... But it doesn't make them similar
                              ~Veronica
                              "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                              http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Calvincrowe View Post
                                The answers really depend on how the schooling show is run. Locally, you don't need to ride all the classes in a "division" to win a championship--I've skipped the flat a few times and still was champion.

                                The second but no first? Never seen that here in a H/J show...seems odd to me, like you missed something.
                                Nope, didn't miss anything, I was sitting watching the whole "class" and there was only one entry. The rider got second on their first O/F round and first on their second. I do think it had something to do with points ...

                                OK, I researched the rule book for this organization:

                                If there is only one rider participating in a given class or division the rider will not earn any less than 3rd place, but will not automatically earn a 1st place due to the
                                fact that they are the only rider in the class.


                                Evidently, from the replies I've gotten here, this is not a common rule.

                                All I have for comparison is the dressage show in which I was the only competitor in my class, and got the blue. Small barn schooling show. This too was a local schooling show.

                                And thanks, War Admiral--it was the first perfect day I've had in a long time! I'm still floating on it.
                                Founder of the People Who Prefer COTH Over FB Clique
                                People Who Hate to Rush to Kill Wildlife Clique!
                                "I Sing Silly Songs to My Animals!" Clique

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Wellspotted View Post
                                  Nope, didn't miss anything, I was sitting watching the whole "class" and there was only one entry. The rider got second on their first O/F round and first on their second. I do think it had something to do with points ...

                                  OK, I researched the rule book for this organization:

                                  If there is only one rider participating in a given class or division the rider will not earn any less than 3rd place, but will not automatically earn a 1st place due to the
                                  fact that they are the only rider in the class.


                                  Evidently, from the replies I've gotten here, this is not a common rule.

                                  All I have for comparison is the dressage show in which I was the only competitor in my class, and got the blue. Small barn schooling show. This too was a local schooling show.

                                  And thanks, War Admiral--it was the first perfect day I've had in a long time! I'm still floating on it.
                                  Okay that rule is boggling my mind - it's seriously possible to be 3rd out of 1 in a class? Who was first and second then? It just makes no sense to me...what benefit would it do by giving someone a yellow ribbon instead of a blue one? You're the only entrant in the class...I'd say getting second or third is just a snarky move by the judge and adds insult to injury.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by goodlife View Post
                                    Okay that rule is boggling my mind - it's seriously possible to be 3rd out of 1 in a class? Who was first and second then? It just makes no sense to me...what benefit would it do by giving someone a yellow ribbon instead of a blue one? You're the only entrant in the class...I'd say getting second or third is just a snarky move by the judge and adds insult to injury.
                                    Add me to the list scratching my head.

                                    Frankly, from what's been described it sounds like a fairly backwater show. Nothing wrong with that. But please don't judge all hunters categorically by that show! It doesn't sound at all representative!
                                    ~Veronica
                                    "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                    http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by goodlife View Post
                                      Okay that rule is boggling my mind - it's seriously possible to be 3rd out of 1 in a class? Who was first and second then? It just makes no sense to me...what benefit would it do by giving someone a yellow ribbon instead of a blue one? You're the only entrant in the class...I'd say getting second or third is just a snarky move by the judge and adds insult to injury.
                                      I was surprised too, but we even have some rated shows that offer non-rated classes that are judged this way, depending on what the judge feels the performance deserved in their opinion. And a friend's daughter recently went to a rated show and showed in some type of jumper class (maybe a paid schooling round?), where all clean rounds were given blue ribbons.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by BAC View Post
                                        I was surprised too, but we even have some rated shows that offer non-rated classes that are judged this way, depending on what the judge feels the performance deserved in their opinion. And a friend's daughter recently went to a rated show and showed in some type of jumper class (maybe a paid schooling round?), where all clean rounds were given blue ribbons.
                                        I've seen schooling jumper classes do all blues for clear rounds. Or as someone else mentioned, blue/reds for scored hunter warmups.

                                        Or open card schooling... so although you might be the only A/A (and perhaps the only one who schools at that time in the afternoon) you might end up with a red ribbon because all morning there were C/As schooling and one of them did better than you in the open card warmup. These are always confusing because generally the people who were in the class in the morning are long gone and not only didn't you see their round, they probably didn't bother to stick around for the ribbon.

                                        But I've never seen a show (and boy, I've been to some rinky dink dirty jersey and redneck incorporated Georgia shows in my days!) where in a class of one, the judge can decide to pin the rider second or third. Hunters is about how you stack up compared to the others in your class. What, you did worse than some IMAGINARY person? That's nuts.

                                        Blue/red warmups are different. Each round is scored and there's just a cut. Above the cut is blue, below is red (and there might be a super low cut below which you get nothing). But that's judging against a numerical ideal--- like a classic. Not the typical judging criteria which is comparing the riders in the class to one another.

                                        Did the person who scored worse than the imaginary competition perhaps get dinged for her baucher?!
                                        ~Veronica
                                        "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                                        http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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