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Letter to COTH Editor in Sept. 24, 2012 issue

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  • Original Poster

    #61
    Originally posted by TeriKessler View Post
    No one is trying to give professional a "free ride" on the amateur's bill. This is about developing jumping horses in america. Period.
    I beg to differ. The letter to the editor, under the guise of developing young horses, clearly states that pros should get discounted entry fees or not charged at all while amateurs pay.

    What expenses does a trainer have at a show that is not covered by clients and client splits? Hotel? No trainer expense there. Food? Nope, no trainer expense there. In addition trainers make money at shows from rides, schooling, day fees, etc.

    The only expense a trainer has for bringing their own horse to show is a stall fee and an entry fee. Developing horses have classes for them that generally don't have a nominating fee such as training jumper classes and the young jumper classes.

    I do agree with an earlier poster that the mileage rule does have the effect of raising costs for everyone. I remember the day when you didn't have to travel so far for a show that you could bring in young horses for the day, show and take them home. Really not feasible now that travel distance is so far.

    Comment


    • #62
      Judysmom - no idea where in MA you are, but Mt. Holyoke has regular jumper shows throughout the winter, I think. I know I've seen ads in various regional publications.
      www.ayliprod.com
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      • #63
        Okay, do you really want to pay $50 for a $25 horse? And why shouldn't young horses be a focus in this country? Isn't that the driving force behind the sport? The discovery and careful development of talented young horses? Why should we outsource that to other countries? Until we make a purposeful plan with a realistic financial structure, it will remain the domain of western europe. Period. Because great things don't happen by accident. They require thought and planning for the future.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by TeriKessler View Post
          As my daughter is forming her career with horses and thinking through her business plan, it's clear that developing young horses while showing at the grand prix level is a money loser due to the current fee structure at the shows. Do you really want to pay twice as much for your next amateur horse because it cost the pro who developed it twice as much to bring it along? I just can't believe anyone thinks that makes sense! Do you really think a $50,000 horse should cost YOU $100,000?!

          No one is trying to give professional a "free ride" on the amateur's bill. This is about developing jumping horses in america. Period.
          Again, my question -- why should pros get a break in bringing along a nice young horse when they are often able to keep the horse much more cheaply than the average amateur? If an amateur and a pro both have comparable horses for sale that should be a $50,000 horse. The pro is probably able, through its connections, to put $45,000 into the horse (without show discounts). The amateur, on the other hand, even with prize money offsetting costs, probably would put in $75,000, not including the commission they give the pro to buy and sell the horse. So the amateur loses $25,000, while the pro, because of their status, could probably sell that horse for $65,000 and make $20K on it.

          I think I would be more willing to pay a few bucks extra (emphasize few) in my annual membership fee, or even with my entry fees, to support young horse development programs, so long as everyone else (pro, junior, ammy) pays it, too. I just can't support reduced entry fees for pros.

          Comment


          • #65
            I personally know exactly zero people who got their horse from Europe. I don't run in predominantly A-show crowds. Developing fancy, expensive, talented young horses for the A shows might be a problem, but there are plenty of reasonably talented horses that are being developed by non-big-name pros and even amateurs, and these horses don't self-destruct when they set foot on A show grounds. From what I've seen anyway, but again, I'm not looking to point chase with the big boys and girls.

            I think the driving force behind our sport are the people who love horses and want to be better riders. I'm not looking to win money at shows, and I'm not looking to win an Olympic medal. I just want to be a better rider and have fun with my horse and maybe occasionally see how I do in an A-show setting. I think there is a big disconnect in the horse world between people like me and people who are spending tens or hundreds of thousands of money on shows and horses every year. I don't begrudge anyone that horse lifestyle, but it's nice to stop and think every once in a while that there are people more in my camp. But if the already exorbitant cost of showing goes up even more so pros can get a discount on developing horses that I'll never be able to afford even if the cost is somewhat reduced? Well, sorry, but that gives me serious heartburn.
            Blog chronicling our new eventing adventures: Riding With Scissors

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by TeriKessler View Post
              Okay, do you really want to pay $50 for a $25 horse? And why shouldn't young horses be a focus in this country? Isn't that the driving force behind the sport? The discovery and careful development of talented young horses? Why should we outsource that to other countries? Until we make a purposeful plan with a realistic financial structure, it will remain the domain of western europe. Period. Because great things don't happen by accident. They require thought and planning for the future.
              Subsidizing the development of young horses via the amateur rider's bank account is a bad idea. Amateur riders and the parents of juniors already subsidize the horse shows and keep the pros in business, because there simply are not enough wealthy non-riding owners to go around.
              "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu

              My Blog!

              Comment


              • #67
                as a young horse trainer in California, who develops mostly american bred sport horses, bringing baby out in public is at times a logistical challenge. :-) so, because of that and the expenses associated with rated shows, i am developing a young horse event whereby youngsters are showcased in a less intense environment using judges who have no dog in the hunt and funding this endeavor with our local businesses. my job is to start baby right so he is not pounded so he can be a possible future star. takes time and lots of money but there are ways to keep expenses down.....syndication being one of them. :-) have a good day everyone.
                Bethe Mounce
                Head Trainer, AmeriCan Romance Equestrian
                https://www.facebook.com/AmericanRomanceEquestrian
                Brentwood CA

                Comment


                • #68
                  But it is not the responsibility of others to subsidize the cost of bringing along your young horse.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by TeriKessler View Post
                    No one is trying to give professional a "free ride" on the amateur's bill. This is about developing jumping horses in america. Period.
                    Actually, the article tries to make a case that the cause of developing jumping horses in the United States will be helped by charging amateurs more so that pros can pay less.

                    I am all for supporting developing horses, but not for this proposed method. Being against this particular method, conversely, does not mean that a person is against supporting developing horses. I'm a trainer with my own horse (who for the record was bred in MARYLAND) I want to do in the First Years and STILL I think this is a ridiculous idea.


                    Did someone on here already say that eliminating the mileage rule would cut prices in half? THAT I agree with.

                    Also perhaps while we are at it eliminating the requirements on show managers at a certain rating to provide jumbotrons and/or heated lounges and/or whatever else is on that long list of things that cost the show manager and thus the exhibitors extra money.

                    I would be happy to ride my developing horse around a jumbotron-less showgounds and have two shows within 75 miles competing for my entry if saves me $100 a week in expenses. No additional bilking of amateurs required.
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                    • #70
                      but, theses are necessary

                      NOW WAIT A minute!

                      young horses and riders NEED loudspeakers and, at a multi day show, stalls as well; that is all part of their getting over their greenness
                      Originally posted by pds View Post
                      This letter to the editor aggravated me quite a bit in terms of the apparent attitude that Amateurs should bear the brunt of costs so Pros can get a free ride. Am I missing something here?

                      The letter is attempting to address the high cost of bringing along young prospects and in part says;

                      "... Under our system that has been in place as long as I have been
                      showing (more than 35 years), all participants—trainers, owners and riders alike—pay the same entry fee. From a pure economics standpoint—and this is Mr. Ward’s main point—the professionals and owners in our sport have a
                      disincentive for investing in young horses because it is highly unlikely that they will ever recoup the amounts they pay at horse shows.
                      Instead, our professionals must rely on owners to sponsor a horse
                      for them; however, there are not many owners who are willing to
                      take that kind of economic risk.
                      The ideal owner not only has an unlimited pocketbook, but also
                      doesn’t care if he or she gets any economic return on the investment;
                      it is a hobby or “passion” for this person, not a money making
                      proposition. This further narrows the playing field.
                      Over the years, participants at hunter/jumper shows have
                      declined. This is due in large part to the difficult economic conditions
                      in our country over the last two decades, but also the inherent
                      flaw in our horse show economic model. The decline in participants
                      has caused show managers to increase rates because the costs
                      to put on a show are mostly fixed. This only leads to further declines in participation.
                      I believe we can improve this situation if horse show managers were to take, or were required to take by our sport’s governing body, a longer-term approach.
                      This is to either discount or eliminate entry fees for horses
                      owned by professionals and/ or horses in the green hunter or
                      young jumper divisions provided that such horses are ridden by
                      professionals. If the same horse is owned or ridden by an amateur, regardless of the class entered, then the owner must pay the undiscounted entry fee.
                      This approach will ultimately bring more horses, riders and
                      owners to the shows, and the discounts will be more than
                      recouped by the increase in volume. Since we already have
                      rules and regulations defining professional and amateur status
                      and eligibility, it should not add much, if any, administrative
                      burden on the show manager.
                      Professionals who bring clients to the shows should receive an
                      economic incentive to do so, either through entry fee discounts for the horses they own or show, or
                      by a profit sharing arrangement where the professional gets a
                      percentage share of his clients’ entry fees. This is how most viable business models work. Why should it be any different in the horse show world?"


                      My thoughts.

                      If show mgmt. were required to offer free or discounted entries to horses owned or ridden by pros, show mgmt would increase fees to the amateurs to recoup the loss of $. This would end up driving more participation out of the sport not bringing more.

                      Professionals already have a financial incentive to bring clients to shows. Do they really need more?

                      Pros should get a share of clients entry fees? Really?
                      breeder of Mercury!

                      remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post

                        Did someone on here already say that eliminating the mileage rule would cut prices in half? THAT I agree with.

                        Also perhaps while we are at it eliminating the requirements on show managers at a certain rating to provide jumbotrons and/or heated lounges and/or whatever else is on that long list of things that cost the show manager and thus the exhibitors extra money.
                        THIS THIS THIS. We don't really *need* anything fancy at horse shows... we spend half our time being covered in essence of poop for god's sake.
                        Blog chronicling our new eventing adventures: Riding With Scissors

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I am having a hard time rationalizing anything in this letter to the editor because it is so all over the place. It just does not make sense to me.

                          In addition, it was written in response to Mclain's article in the Sept 10 & 17 issue (this part of the letter to the editor was not quoted in the op). He discusses what we need to do to become more competitive internationally, including developing young horses. In part, he discusses having a reduced entry fee for young horse classes, and reducing/eliminating prize money for those classes so that a professional may expose them to the experience in a (hopefully) more economically feasible way.

                          My impression is this author is discussing developing hunters, and really isn't in line with what Mclain's was arguing (or at least that is my interpretation).

                          I feel like in some ways we are arguing apples to oranges. Developing hunters versus international caliber jumpers. That's not to say the same issue doesn't exist in both worlds, but I think there may be different approaches for each.

                          Now ask me what that approach is....I can't say I know. I do know whatever change is proposed it won't be easy.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by TeriKessler View Post
                            Okay, do you really want to pay $50 for a $25 horse? And why shouldn't young horses be a focus in this country? Isn't that the driving force behind the sport? The discovery and careful development of talented young horses? Why should we outsource that to other countries? Until we make a purposeful plan with a realistic financial structure, it will remain the domain of western europe. Period. Because great things don't happen by accident. They require thought and planning for the future.


                            Your reasoning makes no sense. You say the "middle class" (read majority of competing public) of this sport should support the high end pros under the guise of developing new horses for rich amateurs. You present a myopic and rather destructive perspective, such as the letter in COTH. Where do you think having show expenses offset by paying customers should then again be DOUBLE accounted by selling a horse to recoup those expenses (e.g. charging $100K for a $50K horse) again is a good idea for amateurs? When pros present the arguments you have I find that there is a significant potential for bad business practices on their part.

                            The only reason there is a European dominance is a misguided belief that the TB, so ubiquitous here, cannot perform in the US. Look at other COTH threads that diminish or belittle the TB in h/j industry. There are plenty of great homebred horses but many trainers are unwilling to actually look in the backyard.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by TeriKessler View Post
                              Okay, do you really want to pay $50 for a $25 horse?
                              You seem to think that the cost of developing the horse plays a significant factor into the cost of buying the horse. This is not necessarily true. I could spend 50k developing the hell out of my nag, and said nag is not worth 50k. The market defines the value. A horse here in Texas that would sell for 25 might sell for 50 on the east or west coast. Or vice versa. Though the cost of developing a young horse does play into a final selling price, quality, talent, availability of others like him (scarce commodity), are MUCH bigger factors.

                              Again, horse showing is expensive you can't fix the cost of bringing one along without fixing that.
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                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by TeriKessler View Post
                                I am referring to 1) the current initiatives by NARG and others to tie prize money to fence height and award money in classes that are open to everyone, not just amateurs. i.e. bigger jumps for bigger money made available to everyone, and 2) reforming the young horse fee structure.

                                The letter writer has her own theories. These are mine.
                                If you start a new thread discussing those topics, you'll have a lot more luck than jumping in the middle of this one. What you (and McLain in his article) are proposing has merit and bears discussion.
                                What the letter to the editor posted does not. In addition, it wouldn't lower the cost of making a young horse, it would just redistribute the costs to people who already pay most of the costs, and leave more profit (trainer is not going to drop the price of the horse, you do realize that, right?) for the pro.
                                Holy crap, how does Darwin keep missing you? ~Lauruffian

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  Originally posted by Pennywell Bay View Post
                                  Yeesss!( muh-uh-uh , wrings hands evil-ly). The chiiddren!! Let's go after them! I thought they were useless but now I see! Juniors should charge double b/c it pains me to see them ride circles around me..... Don't forget the crazy pony moms who will do anything for a ribbon-they get charged an annoyance fee... you are on to something!!!
                                  We could add a fee that is determined by the length of the ribbon in the pony riders hair bows. Now that is a way to make more money for sure.


                                  Add me to the crowd that thinks it is crazy to give the pros free classes.

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by TeriKessler View Post
                                    Okay, do you really want to pay $50 for a $25 horse? And why shouldn't young horses be a focus in this country? Isn't that the driving force behind the sport? The discovery and careful development of talented young horses? Why should we outsource that to other countries? Until we make a purposeful plan with a realistic financial structure, it will remain the domain of western europe. Period. Because great things don't happen by accident. They require thought and planning for the future.
                                    IMO, there is no way to bring American breeding up to the European level that is financially tenable. It won't be politically tenable, either.

                                    One of the problems (among many) is that Europe has a place to send their culls-- both to the American Hunter market and to slaughter. Where do we throw out our garbage?
                                    The armchair saddler
                                    Politically Pro-Cat

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                      Where do we throw out our garbage?
                                      The modified adults?

                                      Not everything has to be the Derby Winner. Horses that max out at 2'6" do have a place in our show system, sometimes for ridiculous prices considering, and some people even like the fact that they jump "impressed" at that height.

                                      Horses can also trail ride, do the local circuit, do low level eventing or dressage, be owned by someone who doesn't show at all and just putters......
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                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                                        The modified adults?

                                        Not everything has to be the Derby Winner. Horses that max out at 2'6" do have a place in our show system, sometimes for ridiculous prices considering, and some people even like the fact that they jump "impressed" at that height.

                                        Horses can also trail ride, do the local circuit, do low level eventing or dressage, be owned by someone who doesn't show at all and just putters......
                                        Someone noted that this discussion was about fostering purpose-bred jumpers, not hunters. And many of those "misses" won't suit the American hunter ring or rider. Europe can't send it's ShouldaBeenAJumper horses to the American Hunter ring when the absorbing market was a set of riders and trainers that had the skill do jump 3'6".

                                        But the other problem is that someone has already lost a small fortune by the time the Meh Weanling has been fed, trained up and shown to the point that it's a going 3'3" horse or a 2'6" horse. Breeders really don't want to be obligated to cover these expenses for every animal they produce. And one of the elements of the system that works in Western Europe is that they don't spend this dough.
                                        The armchair saddler
                                        Politically Pro-Cat

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post

                                          Did someone on here already say that eliminating the mileage rule would cut prices in half? THAT I agree with.

                                          Also perhaps while we are at it eliminating the requirements on show managers at a certain rating to provide jumbotrons and/or heated lounges and/or whatever else is on that long list of things that cost the show manager and thus the exhibitors extra money.

                                          I would be happy to ride my developing horse around a jumbotron-less showgounds and have two shows within 75 miles competing for my entry if saves me $100 a week in expenses. No additional bilking of amateurs required.
                                          Exactly,

                                          I used to show in the 'A's on a regular basis but the costs have gone up faster than my salary (which is decent enough). However I'm not really good enough to go alone and it seems that due to rising costs these days only the larger barns show regularly.

                                          I could afford to show, but I can afford to cover the cost of fancy tack room set ups, fancy show decorations, heated lounges and all the other advertising for trainers, show management, or sponsor solicitation that already get funded by amateur show fees not to mention random added fees by both the show office and trainers.
                                          So I show rated locally and rarely. Many other amateurs I know are in the same boat or getting close to it.

                                          By driving costs up due decreased show entries only the wealthy can afford to play. Which in turn decreases show entries further and bumps up horse prices. Like the housing market it will eventually collapse completely as it becomes unsustainable.

                                          Honestly while I want the national teams to do well and enjoy watching big events, my real focus is enjoying my horses, bringing them along myself and improving my own skills. So that is where I will focus my funds, I cannot afford to also support pros who think they should get a free ride. I guess when it comes down to it I simply care more about my own hobby at the amateur level than the teams international success.

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