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Letter to COTH Editor in Sept. 24, 2012 issue

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  • #41
    I have a young horse that I am trying to find shows to take him this fall and winter. There really aren't many choices. I guess I'm going to show him in the adults and the adult eq- when I'd prefer to show him in the jumpers, or even the pre greens.

    My point is- why can't the C shows have young horse suitable classes? Or jumper classes. Or classes @ 3'6"+ for adult?

    Why has this changed??? When I was a kid the C shows had everything- greens, A/Os, jumpers from pre-preliminary through the modifieds. Even the winter shows in the indoor had jumpers.

    Now it seems that if I want to do jumpers, not at a schooling show, I have to go to A show. A shows are just too expensive for my purposes.

    ^^ and that's my point for this thread! A shows are too expensive for young horse outings!
    Last edited by Judysmom; Sep. 24, 2012, 07:40 PM. Reason: clarity!!
    Unrepentant carb eater

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    • #42
      The idea that amateurs shouldn't win money is ludicrous to the point of being hateful.

      Amateurs are already treated like ATMs, regardless of talent and their contribution to the industry. I really just cannot understand how anyone thinks there will ever be these people out there who want to keep pouring out money to help other people show horses with no real personal benefit. Most of us are at the shows because we like riding and competing, right? Why would I spend my hard-earned money to let some other person do what I want to do?

      Comment


      • #43
        Let me get this straight.

        I am the owner. I pay all the bills. And someone thinks I should pay MORE for the privilege of riding my own horse at a show than if I had a pro ride it?

        BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!


        Wait. This isn't a joke?
        "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu

        My Blog!

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        • #44
          Originally posted by Ruby G. Weber View Post
          I do not believe the junior divisions should pay prize money nor do I think - flame suit on - AMATEURS should be winning money.
          I totally disagree. Amateurs can earn prize money and even sponsorship in other sanctioned sports, just not equestrian. Equestrian sports are very expensive and an amateur should be able to recoup some of their expenses by earning prize money.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by Nickelodian View Post
            I'd go do AQHA where the biggest purses are for the ammy classes. Maybe I should go do AQHA anyway.
            There ya go...my parents are still getting checks from the AQHA (Incentive Fund) for horses they bred over 10 years ago.

            I say we go after the juniors. Their parents are the ones with all the money anyway, so let them cough it up.

            Comment


            • #46
              Can I ask a (potentially) stupid question?

              There's all this talk of pros and pro classes, but is that even a THING? Like, in the USEF rules? In Canada, there are no classes restricted to pros, professional is not a defined term or status you hold. Amateur status is certainly defined, and there are classes restricted to juniors, amateurs and junior/amateurs. All other classes (which may or may not have HORSE restrictions) are open to anyone who cares to enter. I know that functionally, the open classes are predominantly filled with riders who are not eligible for amateur status, but really, is it necessary to in essence, define professionals and provide them with special circumstances under which to enter OPEN classes?
              Founder of the "I met a COTHer in a foreign country" clique!

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              • #47
                USEF classes are either restricted (Ammy, Junior, Children's) or unrestricted, which anyone can ride in. I occassionally take mine in open classes as a warm up. I even place once in awhile, but I'm positive the judge can tell I'm an ammy riding my own, and maybe get a little benefit because of it. If I was looking for a ribbon, I wouldn't be riding in that class.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by Go Fish View Post
                  There ya go...my parents are still getting checks from the AQHA (Incentive Fund) for horses they bred over 10 years ago.

                  I say we go after the juniors. Their parents are the ones with all the money anyway, so let them cough it up.
                  Yeesss!( muh-uh-uh , wrings hands evil-ly). The chiiddren!! Let's go after them! I thought they were useless but now I see! Juniors should charge double b/c it pains me to see them ride circles around me..... Don't forget the crazy pony moms who will do anything for a ribbon-they get charged an annoyance fee... you are on to something!!!
                  Come to the dark side, we have cookies

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by Ruby G. Weber View Post

                    I do not believe the junior divisions should pay prize money nor do I think - flame suit on - AMATEURS should be winning money.

                    Similar to racing, USEF should consider a rule that states a percentage of the prize money goes to USEF declared professionals.

                    With redistribution of prize money entry fees in classes which do not pay prize money SHOULD be reduced.
                    I certainly agree that if Ammie and Juniors do not receive prize money then the entry fees need to be slashed. But the problem with that is those are the classes that bring in most of the money to the show. The so called 'professional' hunter divisions have very few entries. One reason is the shows have jacked up the entry fees in the 'pro' hunter classes to seriously crazy amounts. And in those sections the pro isn't paying the entry fee anyway, it's all on the owner. Hunters do have a cap of 10% in the Classics.

                    Witholding a % of prize money to hand out to pros has it's own set of implications. It's going to be reported to the IRS for one. No idea how many pros report training income and how it's handled for taxes. But this would be straight income.
                    And the owners aren't going to go along with double dipping.
                    Seriously, pay the pro his usual scale and the pro also collects from the show ( and the owner paid those entry fees )? The owners will insist on reducing their bill by the amounts the trainer is now receiving from the shows.

                    Jumpers at least have a 3% cap in 25K and up classes so in that section if you have a good horse then showing isn't all that expensive. And the Young Jumper regional finals have lots of prize money. If you are a Pro and are showing a competitive horse that you own in those sections then entry fees are a small expense.

                    Perhaps instead of Local, C B A and AA shows a league system would be more effective. The amount of prize money, classes held and the entry fees would be standard for every show in each league. At present a C rated show can hold high entry fees classics and other C shows have no classics. At the lowest league level there would be no prize money at all. The downside of this is the show standards would have to adjusted downward for the lowest level shows. So the smaller shows would not have the perfect footing that everyone seems to think they are entitled to at a C show.
                    So be careful what you ask for.

                    Somebody has to pay for all this and right now at least all operate under the same fee structure so it's a pretty level playing field. Redistribution of wealth should not be a goal of horse shows.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      The letter writer is on crack. Pros pay very little to bring their horses to a show. It's the owners/amateurs/juniors that already cover those costs. Why the letter writer thinks that a pro's horse (that they are trying to sell at a significant price increase and profit) needs a bigger price break beats me.

                      The pro's horse probably pays little or no board at the home barn through a discounted stall rate and other paying boarders covering the feed and labor cost. Yes, shoes and vet care are additional, but who know - the pro horse probably gets a discounted rate from their professionals vendors (vet and blacksmith) as a professional courtesy.

                      Many pros truck themselves. That horse is going to the show on the backs of paying horses.

                      The pro gets all their expenses paid while at a show. Hotel, food, travel expenses. Grooms, extra stalls, food, shavings and day care are paid by the customers! Ok, so the horse's stall has to be paid for ....what's that $225?

                      The pro does not have to pay for pro rides. So, that leaves entries...depending on the division and classes...what $600? And they have an opportunity to collect some of that money back in the form of prize money.

                      So, let's see...I shell out probably $2500/month in board and various other expenses and $3K a show. The pro's horse costs maybe a quarter of what I get charged and the letter writer wants me to give them more freebies.

                      I say that she ponies up her checkbook for the pro of her choice for bringing along a nice young horse!

                      Maybe the pro should be hauling their horses and clients back to one day "schooling" shows to save some money if they want their horse to get cheaper mileage!

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Originally posted by ako View Post
                        What BS!!! Many of us Ammies will never go pro for many reasons. In my case, lack of adequate talent is one reason. .
                        Don't be silly! Just a having lots of talent does not disqualify you from being an amateur, not enough talent certainly doesn't keep you from being a pro.

                        I'd like to see more people declaring themselves pros for the discount, and showing their own horses. Why should the "pros" have all the fun?
                        madeline
                        * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis

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                        • #52
                          I am a professional in another field. I get no help in supporting my career choice and I pay my way with no discounts. Why do professional riders think they are any different than any other professional? Why is there such a sense of entitlement to make more money in ways that impinage on the ability of others to participate in their chosen sport(ammie riders). Perhaps it is time to look for a new job folks. The people who want to buy horses or want to show is petering out due to economics and the increasing costs to play this game. Everyone is going to stay home if they have to finance themselves and all the pros too.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            I would call this a deal breaker, except I already hit that point several years ago. I was with a great trainer, except every A show of doing the ammies was costing me $2500 just to the trainer, plus entry fees. Trainer would go down on Tuesdays so my horse had to go to, even though he only did one schooling division with her on Fridays, then the ammies with me on the weekends. I would love to have done my own day care, but I can't take off work a full week for every horse show. So, while I understood her structure and tried to make it work within it, I just couldn't justify the money.

                            The reason this is pertinent, the whole barn would ship down on Tuesdays because she had a horse in the pro divisions during the week. Her actual clients were all ammies showing on the weekend. Because I liked her I tried to be OK with the situation, but it became too expensive to have my horse sitting down there being on day care and burning through shavings because she had a horse earlier in the week. All of her room and food, grooming stall etc, was still being split by the rest of the barn. That seems like she was already getting some help defraying the cost of bringing up her youngster.

                            Still love the trainer, but too rich for my blood these days.

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Please take time to read the proposal and understand how it really affects you.

                              Prize money would still be available to amateurs. Any amateur can show in any "professional" class they choose. For example, last weekend I showed in the 1.25 meter "open" jumper class in the Rolex stadium at Kentucky. I am a "housewife"- type 50 year old gray-haired amateur on a 17 year old horse who normally shows in the low amateurs or the adults, depending on how well I've been riding. I wanted to see how I would do against the pros at my "comfort zone" height, so I gave it a go. Had a good day, and won the class. So I won the prize money. All amateurs are free to do the same at any jump height they choose. PROS, HOWEVER, CAN NEVER COMPETE FOR MONEY OFFERED IN AMATEUR CLASSES.

                              Any time amateurs want to win money, they can show in any "money" class. It's that simple. By the way, I stunk in the amateurs later in the week, so it's not like I'm a "sure thing" who's going to win every "pro class" I enter! I just got it together for that class and brought home a nice cash prize for my effort. I think that's fair.

                              As my daughter is forming her career with horses and thinking through her business plan, it's clear that developing young horses while showing at the grand prix level is a money loser due to the current fee structure at the shows. Do you really want to pay twice as much for your next amateur horse because it cost the pro who developed it twice as much to bring it along? I just can't believe anyone thinks that makes sense! Do you really think a $50,000 horse should cost YOU $100,000?!

                              There aren't enough weekends in the year to plan a separate show schedule for young horses and the horses that are world ranked. Everyone who's jumping gets on the truck and goes to the same show because there are only 52 weeks in the year! You've got to stay home for a week here or there or the whole thing is unsustainable for horse and human! And do you really want to ride a new horse in the amateurs who's show experience is limited to going to another person's farm? I ride horses that have seen and done it all with loud speakers, gaited horses, crowded schooling areas and overnight stabling because I am not capable of doing what a pro rider does for a green horse: give it confidence to tote me around safely in a "showtime" setting while my knees are knocking together.

                              The barns that are developing most of the young horses are NOT the factory junior/amateur barns with 50 showing clients on the road. They are pros who focus on their own top horses and young horses, which will compete until they are sold.

                              No one is trying to give professional a "free ride" on the amateur's bill. This is about developing jumping horses in america. Period.

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                The proposal as written in the letter to the editor talks about entry fees. Horses ridden by pros and/or owned by pros would get discounted entry fees, whereas horses ridden by amateurs in the same class would not.

                                That's great that you rode against the pros and won the prize money. But why should you pay more to ride your own horse in the same class as a pro whose fee was discounted to enter?
                                "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu

                                My Blog!

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                                • #56
                                  No, I don't think a $50,000 horse should cost me $100,000. But I am never going to be able to own a $50,000 horse. Or even a $30,000 horse more than likely. And most amateurs out there won't either - I'd say the vast majority of amateurs don't play in the As much because, hell, it's super expensive and most of us have to work. I have a horse now that, despite his low purchase price of $5,000 (horrors!), feasibly might one day be reasonably A-show competitive though, and I might like to take him to an A show at some point. I don't want to be priced out of that option any more than I am right now, thank you very much. I honestly have no skin in the game of wanting a professional to be able to more affordably bring along a $50,000 or similarly priced horse.I am never going to be able to play at that level, and there's a whole lot more out there like me.
                                  Blog chronicling our new eventing adventures: Riding With Scissors

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                                  • #57
                                    On the topic of this thread, everyone probably is in agreement: Horse showing is too costly; developing young horses is a non-starter in this country due to minimal ROI.

                                    I agree that the cost of horseshowing in the h/j world is shockingly high. And it's important to start getting these topics out on the table, but the reason these topics never advance to a reasonable conclusion is that people start to attack other people over the discussion.

                                    It is horse showing, not life and death.
                                    Do you need to call people 'morons,' or accusing them of illegal drug use?? Or imply posters don't know what they're talking about? Or question 'what does that have to do with anything?'

                                    On another note: Is there a reason the USEF or whoever doesn't study the model of the AQHA, the PBR, etc., which always get held up as a model of $ success? Or about implementing a patent-protection system to amend the mileage rule?

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      I am referring to 1) the current initiatives by NARG and others to tie prize money to fence height and award money in classes that are open to everyone, not just amateurs. i.e. bigger jumps for bigger money made available to everyone, and 2) reforming the young horse fee structure.

                                      The letter writer has her own theories. These are mine.

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                                      • #59
                                        The young horses are so expensive to bring along b/c horse showing is so expensive.

                                        You can't fix one thing without the other.
                                        My adventures as a working rider

                                        theworkingrider.blogspot.com

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                                        • #60
                                          It's easy, the author voted for Obama

                                          Give some a free ride and let other's pay.


                                          I read that letter twice and just shook my head.


                                          It's why I fox hunt now. All the members support the organization.


                                          The pros will keep coming, their clients will keep spending.

                                          Hell, discount the fees for the ammies, your show will be packed!

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