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"Hanoverian of unknown breeding".....

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  • "Hanoverian of unknown breeding".....

    Just started to look through the Hunter Derby issue of The Chronicle of the Horse, specifically the roster and am appalled that the majority of horses seem to be warmbloods of unknown breeding. What that tells me is that the market for hunter horses is full of lies and deception and that this is obviously considered the norm.

    It is laughable to read "Hanoverian" or Dutch warmblood" of unknown breeding! If you don't know the breeding then how do you know the registry of the horse? I know, I know... there's the brand, but they've stopped branding in Europe quite some time ago and it's not mandatory for a US-bred warmblood, either.

    The only time you don't want folks to know the pedigree of a horse is if you have something to hide. The fact that people still buy horses from trainers without getting the papers makes me sick to my stomach. Assume that you're getting cheated if they can't come up with the printed pedigree of the Hanoverian or Dutch warmblood you're about to spend large sums of money on.

    Sorry for the rant - this really doesn't sit well with me.
    Siegi Belz
    www.stalleuropa.com
    2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
    Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

  • #2
    weird. I haven't seen the issue yet, but I can't imagine paying what probably amounts to big $$$$ for something where I didn't know the pedigree.

    by the way, Hollywood SE is gorgeous! She is all leg!!! I love how her two hind socks show up when she floats across the pasture

    Comment


    • #3
      LOL

      I'm 100% with you on this.

      If you don't know the breeding then it is not a warmblood of any registry. It *cannot* be purebred if you do not know the parents. Simply not logically possible and in my world right up there with all the shitpoohs that people buy for $$$ and are confused that they're not registered (its a mutt, not a recognized breed).

      But people still fall for this hook line sinker...

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Thank you, Snicklefritz! I do think Hollywood is going to be a special girl albeit quite a tall one!

        Mouse&Bay - you see I think it's even worse than that... I think a lot of these horses were imported from Europe where they had already competed in jumpers, or worse yet, they've already competed in the US in the hunter divisions, and then you conveniently "lose" the papers and the horse doesn't have a history anymore. Let's start all over in the green divisions.....

        Just my opinion....
        Siegi Belz
        www.stalleuropa.com
        2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
        Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

        Comment


        • #5
          Siegi, As you may know Monica was the photographer at RMI Ocala this year in March. She spoke to me about an impressive gelding she had seen in the Green Hunters and, on her word, I went over to the hunter ring to watch him go...yes, indeed, most impressive in looks, jump and temperament! I located the trainer and introduced myself as a local breeder and asked if he knew his gelding's pedigree. "Oh, no," he said, "something German...Hanoverian or Oldenberg or something." " Do you ever look here," I asked. "Oh, no...too expensive. I go over there and they've all done 1.40 and are dead broke and I just bring them over and take them down to the hunters. The horses here are too expensive."

          Just reporting... sad, but true.
          Sakura Hill Farm
          Now on Facebook

          Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Michele, the reason "the horses here are too expensive" is because of the very trainers that sell them for high dollars after importing them for a quarter of that price, if that.

            And I wouldn't even have a problem with the pricing if the horses would retain their papers because then we could actually learn which bloodlines are successful in their discipline.

            Unless the USEF changes the way they do business when it comes to registering horses with them, people will continue to get lied to and overcharged for horses that are not what they're purported to be.

            Ok, rant over!
            Siegi Belz
            www.stalleuropa.com
            2007 KWPN-NA Breeder of the Year
            Dutch Warmbloods Made in the U. S. A.

            Comment


            • #7
              I counted yesterday. There are 78 Derby Finals profiles. 20 ammy-owners and 58 pros. FORTY-TWO of the 78 are listed as "breeding unknown". Now, I get if they are branded how you know it's a Hanoverian or an Oldenburg...but when you see "Hanoverian-TB cross of Unknown Breeding" that tells me someone knows more than they are saying about the pedigree.

              Here is the question I posted on the breeding forum:
              I get that a good horse is a good horse. But what I cannot wrap my mind around is the idea that these good horses just fall out of the sky, with no thought or planning as to what gave them the genetics to make them good.

              I don't understand how the most casual gambler at an off-track betting site can understand, study and appreciate the trends and the genetics involved in the horses on the race card (never having even sat on a racehorse) and the majority of the riders here can't make that leap.

              In all honesty - can someone explain it?
              I can understand that some of it is due to new identities being created for a horse... but I just don't believe this fraudulant practice is the main reason for the lack of interest in how good hunters are bred.

              Even if you are solely interested in importing "future hunters" from Europe, wouldn't getting educated on how the ones you like are bred give you an edge in finding more of them?
              "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

              Comment


              • #8
                I am willing to bet they have just forgotten or are too lazy to look up sire & dam names, either when they register with USEF or fill out the info for this class. Tons of the horses we get in for marketing are listed as "Unknown" on USEF records but the owners DO list the sire & dam in our paperwork and they DO have papers. I bet most of these horse do too.

                That doesn't say anything better about the concerns the hj show crowd has for genetics and breeding, which is little to none, but I seriously doubt these are mutt-bred draft crosses parading around as Holsteiners. Reprocessed young jumpers from Europe? Yeah, probably.
                EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                Comment


                • #9
                  I couldn't agree more it's at least annoying to see a horse's breeding go 'forgotten' like this.
                  I do however think the identity-loss occurs with all kinds of horses not only imported ones and the reasons don't seem to always be of deceptive nature.

                  Knowing how the jumpers work over here and what's needed to excel in the N.A. hunter rings it's not as easy as to pick up some 1.40m jumper over here and simply flip it with a few weeks of post-import-rehabbing.
                  My guess is that more often than not the loss of papers and/or pedigree occurs between subsequent sales. Whether it happens out of pure disinterest or with the intention to hide a horse's origins doesn't really matter. The effect is the same: Sires don't get due credit. Dams don't and breeders don't get it either.

                  Bad
                  Froh zu sein bedarf es wenig...
                  http://www.germanhorseconnection.com
                  https://www.facebook.com/pages/Germa...m/237648984580

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The horses we've imported that have a show record,their passport shows only where they have been not what level they have shown in. So no need to lose the passport to showw in usa.

                    Secondly,most people who register with usef don't put the breeding in because they don't have the info right in front of them. And most people don't care what is says with usef.
                    When I register my horses with usef I always put the breeding because I want everything to match, with their passport, so if I want to sell one, its all good, but thats me.
                    http://community.webshots.com/user/summitspringsfarm

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      We currently have a wonderful Selle francais mare that has been there, done that all over the world at the seriously big GP level. When we obtained her we were given her FEI passport, she has been branded and there had been no name change. The original importing purchaser, a former Olympian, was very courteous and upon our request,he, as well as his office manager, searched high and low for her French papers to no avail. They were irretrievably lost. However, since Selle francais has been reactivated here and the current representative is both helpful and thorough and the persons from whom we got the mare have been responsive and forthcoming, we are able to reconstitute her Selle francais papers, although at considerable cost both in time and dollars (or euro, as the case may be).

                      This is a mare who, after a useful and successful career in the Big Ring, can now go on and be equally successful in the broodmare band. She has already produced an outstanding stallion-quality colt for us in 2012 by Contendro I, is bred to Catoki for what we expect to be an equally special foal, and will subsequently be bred to Olympic Ahorn upon the advice of Janko of VDL with a view to producing for us a filly that we will then retain.

                      She does not have the temperament to drop down to the lower levels and carry beginning riders around, although she has taught a junior rider the ropes at the GP level. What, indeed , would have been her fate had we not taken the risk to incorporate her into our broodmare band in the conviction that miracles would be done and we would get the papers duplicated? She is no beauty, being of the "noble" old-fashioned type so a pasture ornament she is not. If one did not know her history, a neophyte might dismiss her as a difficult draft horse. Had there been a name change, we would have been unable to proceed.

                      These breed registration papers are crucial on so many levels and the USEF recording number, while important, carries absolutely no weight with the Registries. Even in the worst case scenario in which your horse ends up in a killer auction, breed registries and their members keep an eye out for their own and muster support to intervene.

                      We truly hope that the appeal to keep, indeed, to insist upon the breed registry papers when purchasing a new performance horse, especially if it is a mare, will be heeded. It is you, the competitors, who are key in making sure that your trainers are diligent and do not dismiss the importance of these papers. They would not consider letting you compete without your USEF recording number; equally,your new purchase needs proof of his or her origins from the registry of origin as it moves through the inevitable cycle of life.

                      Have a thought for your horse's future when it is no longer able to compete and insist that your trainer does as well!

                      Appeal over!
                      Sakura Hill Farm
                      Now on Facebook

                      Young and developing horses for A-circuit jumper and hunter rings.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I agree that papers are important for many reasons.

                        One reason not yet mentioned... Proof of age. I've seen papers go missing so the seller can market the horse as younger than he/she really is.

                        Often times sellers will say the papers are lost so they can market a US-bred as imported, expecting top dollar.

                        Outside of marketing situations, I lean towards a great deal of laziness.
                        Born under a rock and owned by beasts!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by dags View Post
                          I am willing to bet they have just forgotten or are too lazy to look up sire & dam names, either when they register with USEF or fill out the info for this class. Tons of the horses we get in for marketing are listed as "Unknown" on USEF records but the owners DO list the sire & dam in our paperwork and they DO have papers. I bet most of these horse do too.
                          This. Heck, my dad's horse is listed on USEF with 'breeding unknown' under broodmare, but we have his passport and papers. Guess previous owner/current trainer/mom/dad didn't feel like digging out his papers when they registered/transferred ownership.
                          .

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Big_Grey_hunter View Post
                            This. Heck, my dad's horse is listed on USEF with 'breeding unknown' under broodmare, but we have his passport and papers. Guess previous owner/current trainer/mom/dad didn't feel like digging out his papers when they registered/transferred ownership.
                            This is purely an intellectual exercise (because it will never happen) but do you think your parents would have dug up the papers when registering him with the USEF if they got a discount for known breeding?
                            "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by ahf View Post
                              This is purely an intellectual exercise (because it will never happen) but do you think your parents would have dug up the papers when registering him with the USEF if they got a discount for known breeding?
                              Yes, I think they would have. We know where the papers are, I guess they just didn't feel like finding them when they registered him. Maybe I'll get around to putting in his breeding this summer, assuming it doesn't cost anything to change it.
                              .

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Hate to semi-hijack, but someone want to send me a link to the hunter derby issue? Not really fancying trying to find it.
                                Mendokuse

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by siegi b. View Post
                                  The only time you don't want folks to know the pedigree of a horse is if you have something to hide. The fact that people still buy horses from trainers without getting the papers makes me sick to my stomach.
                                  Not true. Some people really don't care about the breeding of the horse if it can do the job it is being purchased for. Just because you are interested in the breeding doesn't mean everyone is.

                                  Originally posted by Mouse&Bay View Post
                                  LOL
                                  If you don't know the breeding then it is not a warmblood of any registry. It *cannot* be purebred if you do not know the parents. Simply not logically possible and in my world right up there with all the shitpoohs that people buy for $$$ and are confused that they're not registered (its a mutt, not a recognized breed).
                                  Seeing how warmbloods aren't breeds, but rather well-bred, or at the very least, intentionally-bred, mutts (or as we used to call them "grade-horses"), I'm thinking your comments on about purebreds are a little ridiculous.

                                  Certainly warmblood breeding has turned the distinction between purebreds and grade horses on its ear with it's registries rather than breeds. However, papers are no guarantee that a horse is any nicer than one without papers.

                                  Bloodlines matter when you are buying youngsters or breeding stock. They don't matter nearly as much when you are buying a performance horse that has already proven itself.
                                  Keith: "Now...let's do something normal fathers and daughters do."
                                  Veronica: "Buy me a pony?"

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by RugBug View Post
                                    Not true. Some people really don't care about the breeding of the horse if it can do the job it is being purchased for. Just because you are interested in the breeding doesn't mean everyone is.......Bloodlines matter when you are buying youngsters or breeding stock. They don't matter nearly as much when you are buying a performance horse that has already proven itself.
                                    You say you don't care about the breeding of a horse - you just ride it. How are the people that are making the horses you ride supposed to know how to repeat or avoid that cross if they have no idea where it is, or how it's doing?

                                    Why do you think breeding is so utterly divorced from you - the consumer?
                                    "No matter how cynical I get its just not enough to keep up." Lily Tomlin

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by dags View Post
                                      I am willing to bet they have just forgotten or are too lazy to look up sire & dam names, either when they register with USEF or fill out the info for this class. Tons of the horses we get in for marketing are listed as "Unknown" on USEF records but the owners DO list the sire & dam in our paperwork and they DO have papers. I bet most of these horse do too.
                                      I agree with this. One of my stallions offspring has been coming up thru the lower levels of eventing. He has been listed on the USEA site as a TB. He is now competing at Prelim, and thankfully the USEF recording does have his correct breeding.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Well, another reason the papers are "lost" is that the importer doesn't want to give any clues as to where the horse came from in Europe. Good connections over there are becoming more difficult to find. I've seen people take passports and just drop them in the trash. I, if I ever get another one, do have an awesome connection in Germany! Thanks, Kareen! LOL
                                        Friends don't let friends ride junk!

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