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Objective versus subjective consideration in our team selection process?

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  • Objective versus subjective consideration in our team selection process?

    In the article "Meet Our Olympic US Show Jumping Team" on page 5 there's a small article titled "Not Happy". What do you think about what Margie's saying? Do you agree or disagree with her?

    Here's the link to the article:
    http://chronofhorse.com/article/meet...ng-team?page=5
    Scroll down to the bottom

  • #2
    I do feel bad for Margie, I am sure she is probably heartbroken. The top 4 that were picked for the team are the best of the best and the most consistent horse/riders though. I feel that she maybe should have been at least placed as an alternate on the team. Afterall, Indigo did co win the observation trials in Wellington. Yes, he had 12 faults in Kentucky and I guess the selectors see that as a risk in the games. I am guessing that she is kicking herself for not having competed at Spruce instead of Devon or Kentucky.

    I know this is the second time that she has gotten stiffed out of being on the Olympic team. I can remember back in 2004 that she did not make the team with Perin due to a rider injury. I am sure she is quite frustrated.

    Comment


    • #3
      Margie should be on the team, period. At the very least she should be the alternate.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by pds View Post
        Margie should be on the team, period. At the very least she should be the alternate.
        I disagree. IMO I believe that there were better pairs. Indigo and Margie have not shown the consistency that the others showed this year. I think it would have been a large risk to put her on.
        Life is short, ride the best horse first.

        Comment


        • #5
          Yeah, it's horse rider combinations and I suspect that has more to do with it then anything personal...although I bet there are some hard feelings about 2004.

          Little surprised she said this.
          When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

          The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

          Comment


          • #6
            I see where she's coming from. She was 2nd in the trials, Charlie didn't compete. You would think that would carry a lot of weight going into the selections.
            Fils Du Reverdy (Revy)- 1993 Selle Francais Gelding
            My equine soulmate
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            • #7
              Originally posted by dani0303 View Post
              I see where she's coming from. She was 2nd in the trials, Charlie didn't compete. You would think that would carry a lot of weight going into the selections.
              ^

              I mean, they are all GREAT riders and I'm sure it wasn't an easy decision. But I have no idea why she's not at least an alternate?
              Originally posted by rustbreeches
              [George Morris] doesn't always drink beer, but when he does, he prefers Dos Equis

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              • #8
                Originally posted by dani0303 View Post
                I see where she's coming from. She was 2nd in the trials, Charlie didn't compete. You would think that would carry a lot of weight going into the selections.
                This and the fact that Charlie hasn't been ALL that consistent over the last 6 months either...

                I honestly feel bad for her... but that's on a personal/emotional level... The top 4, IMO, deserve to be there more than any other riders (and that comment would include her)...
                Proudly living in my "let's save the world bubble"!

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                • #9
                  Has Margi ever mentioned why she chose not to attend Spruce?

                  The problem I find with going on a strictly points only system & picking the team on who has the least amount of faults at the end...who knows what could happen? You may get somebody who puts in the 4 greatest shows of their life only to completely crumble at the Olympics in the 1st round at the 1st jump because they lack international experience or showing in such an atmosphere.

                  Anytime you add subjectivity there is always going to be happy & unhappy people with the outcome.
                  "I'm not crazy...my mother had me tested"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I haven't seen Chill in person, so maybe the selectors know something I don't, but I was a little surprised that Margie wasn't the alternate.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      IMO, Margie's a great national rider, but not a great international one. Not sure why, but when she's been on Teams in the past, and it's really counted, she's seemingly not been able to get the job done. Add that to deciding not to go to Spruce Meadows, and there you go...

                      I'm sory for her - she's done an awful lot and produced a lot of really good horses. But I think the right four (or five) are going.

                      YMMV.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #12
                        Originally posted by d1277 View Post
                        I haven't seen Chill in person, so maybe the selectors know something I don't, but I was a little surprised that Margie wasn't the alternate.
                        I saw Chill at Devon in the Open Jumper Stake class( which he won). I thought that he had a great jump and that he jumped the course beautifully. He didn't seem to have a problem with the height, it was like watching a EQ course. I'm not surprised that Margie isn't alternate and that she didn't make the team. Indigo hasn't had that many good results this year and he isn't the most reliable/consistent horse on the circuit. I'm sure that the selectors took into consideration that he didn't have a good showing at the WCF and that he hasn't good results this year. I think putting Indigo on the team would've been a huge risk. We want to medal (gold preferably) not end up at the bottom (WEG).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Well I believe Margie has just about qualified for the Pfizer Million so I hope she rides Indigo and kicks some serious butt
                          "Using draw reins without spurs is like going to the bar with no underwear on. You're just waiting to get f***ed."

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                          • #14
                            And this debate is why there was a lawsuit a long time ago to define what the criteria should be for the team.
                            Seems like this has taken a big step back to the bad old days when performance wasn't the most important criteria.
                            That lawsuit pretty much brought the AHSA and the USET to their knees.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I have never been a fan of the purely objective system, implemented as it was due to the threat of lawsuits rather than out of any belief it would produce the strongest team.

                              Margie is a great rider but I can imagine that the selectors did have concerns about her horse's consistency, and although it's sad for her on a personal level, I think the right riders are on the team and have a good shot at doing very well.
                              **********
                              We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                              -PaulaEdwina

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                              • #16
                                As a close friend of Margie, l know she has nothing but respect for the other horse/rider combinations. The point she was trying to make that the use of both some subjectivity and some objectivity is what worked in the past and if something is not broken than why try to fix it. It is much clearer to owners and outsiders if things are spelled out. As far as lndigo's performances of late, l have to defend them. They won the 125,000 gp week 6 of Fl., tied to win the National Championships, 2nd in the Olympic Trials, Clear and 2nd in Ky, 2nd and double clear in Devons GP just to name a few from this year and led the World Cup standings almost all last year with multiple wins. To say that Margie has no lnternational winnings is absurd as she has won Gold, 2 Silver and Individual Bronze Medals all in Pan Am, WEG and Olympic events. She has also won numerous GPs both in Europe and North America if people want to check her lnternational scores. I believe this thread was titled subjective or objective and l also think a combination of the two would be much more productive for the future, but again this is just my opinion and everyone has and is entitled to one

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                                • #17
                                  And yet Margie stayed oddly quiet when they basically old Reed there was no way she'd make the team because she is too young.

                                  I remember the last "performance only" team... It wasn't pretty.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by horsense View Post
                                    As a close friend of Margie, l know she has nothing but respect for the other horse/rider combinations. The point she was trying to make that the use of both some subjectivity and some objectivity is what worked in the past and if something is not broken than why try to fix it. It is much clearer to owners and outsiders if things are spelled out. As far as lndigo's performances of late, l have to defend them. They won the 125,000 gp week 6 of Fl., tied to win the National Championships, 2nd in the Olympic Trials, Clear and 2nd in Ky, 2nd and double clear in Devons GP just to name a few from this year and led the World Cup standings almost all last year with multiple wins. To say that Margie has no lnternational winnings is absurd as she has won Gold, 2 Silver and Individual Bronze Medals all in Pan Am, WEG and Olympic events. She has also won numerous GPs both in Europe and North America if people want to check her lnternational scores. I believe this thread was titled subjective or objective and l also think a combination of the two would be much more productive for the future, but again this is just my opinion and everyone has and is entitled to one
                                    Well it didn't help that she preformed badly at the World Cup Finals this year. IMO I think Indigo has already peaked. I love the horse, don't get me wrong, but this has not been his year. Margie herself has been in this sport forever too, and for good reason. But what other horses this year has proven that SHE is consistent this year as well?

                                    Originally posted by Lucassb View Post
                                    Margie is a great rider but I can imagine that the selectors did have concerns about her horse's consistency, and although it's sad for her on a personal level, I think the right riders are on the team and have a good shot at doing very well.
                                    ^ yes.
                                    Life is short, ride the best horse first.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      ME had some great results during the trials as well as some not so good ones. Going into Spruce Meadows, there were multiple rider/horse combinations with objectively better records. I have to think going to Spruce and doing well might have kept her closer to the top of the list.

                                      It seems to me that the selectors chose those performers (reed, rich, beezie) who were consistently good each week, the ones that avoided those high fault rounds that do in a nations cup team. Beezie and reed had the added benefit of multiple successful mounts to choose fron which is a real plus. McLain has a stellar international record has shown over the past few weeks that they can be counted on for a 0 or 4 fault round. I think McLain got the nod based on sheer talent, record, and international experience.

                                      The selectors had a lot of talent to choose from including ME and Indigo. All selected won trials or observation events. Margie was not a glaring omission, all who are on the team deserve to be there in my opinion. Margie could have been an option for alternate but again, I think that 12 fault round did her in.

                                      I wish her the best of luck, but I don't think her comments do herself or anyone any good.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        She can always count on the World Cup and the FEI ranking list for objective results... but I can definitely understand the disappointment of not going to the Olympics; such a prestigious competition...


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