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Would re-legalization of Ace stop Magnesium deaths?

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  • #41
    Originally posted by lauriep View Post
    First of all, I am not advocating this change, just presenting some arguments on the pro side.

    The hunter world today IS NOT AND NEVER WILL BE AGAIN a place where trainers all know what they are doing, kids hang out with their ponies/horses that they keep at home, and adults ride five a day. That is not the hunter world, no matter how we wish it was. The judges demand, or at least the trainers believe they do, robotic quietness, and most amateur riders do not want to ride a playful horse through it. So PLEASE stop saying get a different horse or learn to ride. It is just not the situation as it is TODAY.

    So, dealing with reality, and wanting to 1) rid the sport of dangerous drugs and practices and 2) keep the horses as sound as possible for as long as possible, and knowing that the next "it" drug is just around the bend, what can be done?

    Up the punishments with each offense and make them really hurt the pocketbook. Do more testing. Incentivize clean sport. Insist that judges be lenient with behavior (how lenient)? Let everyone show on up to 1cc of Ace. Longe longer and harder. What else???
    I get it, I do. I see where you are coming from and the reality of it stands. But then how is that fair competition to the handful of amateurs that CAN ride their horses and don't need to use ace? How are they supposed to feel when they lose out to somebody because they had to ride just a little bit harder to keep their horse together than the other person beside them who just sat there half asleep because their horse was doped up on that 1cc of ace, when in reality if that person's horse wasn't drugged they may not have made it around the course?

    Just another perspective.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not an "ace hater." I feel it has it's place (ie: bringing a horse back from an injury so that it doesn't hurt itself). I just feel that place is NOT in the show ring.
    Originally posted by rustbreeches
    [George Morris] doesn't always drink beer, but when he does, he prefers Dos Equis

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    • #42
      Originally posted by hackinaround View Post
      Why do people find it ok to jump their horses over sometimes very large fences while they are chemically altered yet the idea of driving on a few cocktails screams danger ?
      You know, that's an excellent point.

      Here's a thought--teach your students to ride what they have or go out of business. No one has a god-given right to a career in horses.

      And if there are so few horses 'naturally' suited to the job they're literally priced like rubies, perhaps the nature of the job should be reconsidered. That or start crossing them on Western Pleasure mares.
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      • #43
        HunterWorld has painted itself into a corner that I don't think it can get out of. It's worse than what happened to Western Pleasure between the 1970s and 2000 or whenever the AQHA formally started to try and change judging standards.

        The problem is that this ring was always built to welcome new riders into the sport. And modern riders aren't forced to learn to ride as well before they can start showing.

        I don't think any horseman turns pro with the intention of not teaching riders to actually ride, or cutting corners with horses or cheating in those clear terms. They get dragged there by the:

        "Oh Sh!t" of "How do I pay the bills this month if I don't buy and show?"

        And

        "Holy Sh!t, that was a bad fence that my new client with the fat wallet just took. I can't let her get hurt. Where in God's name am I going to find a horse that can pack her around?"

        And

        "I didn't even know a horse could do that walking lope and then crack his back that hard over a fence. And he doesn't move an ear or his tail. Either he cost way more than my clients can spend, or that trainer knows a ton (and I can't leave my business long enough to go learn), or the guy was cheating. In any case, when I'm out of time and knowledge to make a horse just.that.quiet. I have to do something because the business needs the shows and the clients need to win, or the whole thing will fold."


        So what would you have the modern trainer do from this point?

        As an ammy, I have it easy. I can defect to a different discipline. But what about the person who has made this her profession?
        The armchair saddler
        Politically Pro-Cat

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        • #44
          Life isnt fair. Sometimes there answer is STAY HOME AND LEARN TO RIDE. After you paint yourself into a corner (showing with a client who is not ready) you have to suffer the consequences of your decision. What you sow so too shall you reap.
          Last edited by Jumphigh83; Jun. 8, 2012, 01:16 PM. Reason: spelling
          The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

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          • #45
            Originally posted by mvp View Post

            "I didn't even know a horse could do that walking lope and then crack his back that hard over a fence. And he doesn't move an ear or his tail. Either he cost way more than my clients can spend, or that trainer knows a ton (and I can't leave my business long enough to go learn), or the guy was cheating. In any case, when I'm out of time and knowledge to make a horse just.that.quiet. I have to do something because the business needs the shows and the clients need to win, or the whole thing will fold."

            So what would you have the modern trainer do from this point?

            As an ammy, I have it easy. I can defect to a different discipline. But what about the person who has made this her profession?
            Lots of people lose their jobs or don't get to work in the field they really want to. There is no moral out clause of "But I really wanna be a trainer and if I don't cheat I won't have a job." By that logic, lots of people want to win an Olympic medal, so doping should be okay when they can't do it naturally.
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            • #46
              Oh jeez just test every single horse at a show, close the lunging areas and open a gallop track. Problem solved.
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              • #47
                I love the idea of building more paddocks to rent. Please make them tall and stallion friendly :-). My guy is out 12 hrs a day and a 30 min turnout at a show would definitely make him a happy camper!
                Cornerstone Equestrian
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                • #48
                  Having legged back up a horse on stall rest post-injury who was aced for the first few rides, I could feel the lack of coordination and it was scary. I disliked the feeling so much that I just went sans-ace and took my chances (and it was fine). I'd be scared to JUMP a horse who felt like that.
                  ~Veronica
                  "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
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                  • #49
                    2 tempe said it well. If AS A GENERAL RULE, a horse can't do a hunter round without either drugs or being worked to death by longeing, there is something wrong with the judging criteria as currently applied. The horse who can actually do what is required naturally today isn't given a fair chance to win because other horses are drugged to achieve the same result.

                    Change what the judges pin and you will change the preparation. The AQHA is trying very hard to get rid of the peanut rollers and the preparation it takes to make a peanut roller, but is having a very difficult time. One speculates that it's because the shows hire the judges, not the AQHA. Shows want judges who will pin what brings competitors to their shows--not judges who break the mold.

                    Maybe the answer is to have the USEF/USHJA have a rotating judge list of people who will pin according to the rules as written and assign judges from that list to shows. Take the judge and steward selection out of the hands of the show managers.

                    Say that the USEF/USHJA WERE willing to assign judges, they could follow the procedure that is used to select arbitrators in legal situations. Send show management a list with, say, five names on it and show management could select one or two from the five. Stewards would be assigned directly by rotation from those in the area.
                    Last edited by vineyridge; Jun. 8, 2012, 02:05 PM.
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                    • #50
                      I guess if we HAVE to trade one for another, I'd say allow oral calming supplements like Calm and Cool, Perfect Prep, Quietex etc. Not Ace/Reserpine. Just allow oral calming supplements.

                      I'm actually not in favor of such a proposal. But I'm just saying, rather than Ace-- I'd feel better up on a horse on an oral supplement versus a drug that affected coordination.
                      ~Veronica
                      "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
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                      • #51
                        Originally posted by danceronice View Post
                        Lots of people lose their jobs or don't get to work in the field they really want to. There is no moral out clause of "But I really wanna be a trainer and if I don't cheat I won't have a job." By that logic, lots of people want to win an Olympic medal, so doping should be okay when they can't do it naturally.
                        That's not fair. First, there is not "by that logic." You can make analogies from little to big, but it doesn't help the trainer do otherwise.

                        See, imagine being the pro who's 40 or so and can't stand the drugging business anymore. The problem is that she has been a professional horse trainer since she was 20. She may or may not have any college education, and even if she does she hasn't worked in white collar field for the majority of her professional life. She most likely has lot of mileage on her body and needs health insurance. She may or may not have built enough of a reputation that she could go into some other lucrative branch of horsing like sales only or writing books or becoming a sought-after clinician who travels. Perhaps she could become a judge-- but what would she be able to watch and reward but more drugged horses?

                        So you can wag your finger at this pro and make her feel "shoulda,coulda,woulda" about her lack of experience in other fields. You can tell her to humble herself and start at the bottom in an office job, get a real estate license, become a lab tech or get her RN degree. But she's competing with spring chicken 23-year-olds with newly minted college degrees that aren't worth much either. If she makes a profit at her horse training job, she could plot her escape-- keep working for a few more years, socking away money so that she can go back to school. Or she can borrow and join the ranks of students struggling under student debt-- and she can do that much closer to retirement age and with a beat-up body.

                        So it will come as no surprise that this archetypal trainer instead "keeps on keepin' on". The alternative-- when you get away from abstract logic and into the real details confronting a person-- isn't tenable.
                        The armchair saddler
                        Politically Pro-Cat

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                        • #52
                          Originally posted by lauriep View Post
                          What you people are not understanding is that with the judging as it is, there aren't ENOUGH "horses more suited for the job" to go around. And the elephant in the room is the fact that the RIDERS don't want to ride a horse that may pull a little. It is not just the judging that drives this bus.

                          The good jumping, good moving horse that takes zero prep to get to the ring, under today's judging, are almost non-existant. And horrendously expensive when they are found. So now, what?
                          The judging does drive the bus.
                          Simply change the rules. Mark down horses who compete with their eyes half shut. Or horses who don't seem to be able to lift their heads above their knees. Add verbiage that makes it clear that playing in the corners is not a crime.
                          Other than Ammie and Jr most of the riders in the Hunters, and certainly in the big money classes are Pros.
                          Your argument seems like you are saying that the Pros are so inept that they can't manage a horse that takes a hold. If that is the case then the Trainers are a secondary contributor to the problem.

                          And for the OP. Ace was never Legal. Back in the day there was no test for it. Once a test was available it could be listed as 'banned. Even back then some trainers took a stand and didn't use it, others took the easy way out, just as they do today.

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                          • #53
                            Not sure if you guys have super powered Ace in the US, but in my experience, 1 cc doesn't change a horse that much. My understanding is that is not really a tranq at that dose, as much as an anti-anxiety medication.

                            So, is 1 cc of ace really all they are giving? And if so, does it really make that much of a difference?

                            My thoughts are that 1cc of ace is naive. I am doubting that ace is/was the former tranq of choice, and if it was, I am thinking more than 1cc was being used if you are seeing that huge a change.

                            I also wonder how many horses that are habitually drugged even need it, or if the trainer just gets to the point they are afraid to go without.
                            Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

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                            • #54
                              Originally posted by S A McKee View Post
                              Other than Ammie and Jr most of the riders in the Hunters, and certainly in the big money classes are Pros.
                              Huh?????????/
                              *****
                              You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

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                              • #55
                                Originally posted by CHT View Post
                                Not sure if you guys have super powered Ace in the US, but in my experience, 1 cc doesn't change a horse that much. My understanding is that is not really a tranq at that dose, as much as an anti-anxiety medication.

                                So, is 1 cc of ace really all they are giving? And if so, does it really make that much of a difference?

                                My thoughts are that 1cc of ace is naive. I am doubting that ace is/was the former tranq of choice, and if it was, I am thinking more than 1cc was being used if you are seeing that huge a change.

                                I also wonder how many horses that are habitually drugged even need it, or if the trainer just gets to the point they are afraid to go without.
                                Interesting. I can't imagine needing more than one. 1/2 would often be plenty.

                                Your last sentence, however, is spot on. I had a friend who barn managed and often squirted the meds out into the shavings if she thought they didn't need it. This is especially true of barns where every horse showing gets the same cocktail every day.

                                I remember being prescribed robaxin and after taking it thinking, 'Never giving my horse this and riding!'
                                *****
                                You will not rise to the occasion, you will default to your level of training.

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                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                  That's not fair. First, there is not "by that logic." You can make analogies from little to big, but it doesn't help the trainer do otherwise.

                                  See, imagine being the pro who's 40 or so and can't stand the drugging business anymore. The problem is that she has been a professional horse trainer since she was 20. She may or may not have any college education, and even if she does she hasn't worked in white collar field for the majority of her professional life. She most likely has lot of mileage on her body and needs health insurance. She may or may not have built enough of a reputation that she could go into some other lucrative branch of horsing like sales only or writing books or becoming a sought-after clinician who travels. Perhaps she could become a judge-- but what would she be able to watch and reward but more drugged horses?

                                  So you can wag your finger at this pro and make her feel "shoulda,coulda,woulda" about her lack of experience in other fields. You can tell her to humble herself and start at the bottom in an office job, get a real estate license, become a lab tech or get her RN degree. But she's competing with spring chicken 23-year-olds with newly minted college degrees that aren't worth much either. If she makes a profit at her horse training job, she could plot her escape-- keep working for a few more years, socking away money so that she can go back to school. Or she can borrow and join the ranks of students struggling under student debt-- and she can do that much closer to retirement age and with a beat-up body.

                                  So it will come as no surprise that this archetypal trainer instead "keeps on keepin' on". The alternative-- when you get away from abstract logic and into the real details confronting a person-- isn't tenable.
                                  Boo hoo. I know plenty of middle-aged people having to change careers through no fault of their own and who are scraping by earning degrees in new subjects (or getting their first as they put it off for marriage, children, the military, etc.) I have absolutely zero sympathy for someone who insists they HAVE to cheat because otherwise waah, they can't do THIS VERY JOB and it would be HARRRRRRD to change. Lots of people are suffering. I'm not going shed any tears because they want to play with super-expensive ponies and clients for a living to the point they're willing to lie and cheat to do it.
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                                  • #57
                                    I can't believe drugs are even an option. How about we learn to ride the horse we have underneath of us?

                                    I grew up riding most of the time without a trainer. My parents did not have lots money. I worked when and where I could to pay for my horses. My horses came out of the kill pen. I rode their butts off. I got seat time and that is how I learned to ride them. Without any drugs. I showed my kill pen horses and I won on them. Why, because they were trained by me and I rode them. Without a trainer. They were thoroughbreds and arabians. Very rarely did I ever have a quarter horse.

                                    Learn to ride.
                                    Get a trainer to teach you to ride without drugs.
                                    Say no to drugs.
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                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by copper1 View Post
                                      There are m any side affects to Ace that the average horseman may not be aware of and should read up on.
                                      How about plain old training? Less shows, more turn out? teaching rider to actually RIDE? Pick a horse more suited to the job?
                                      Giving anything a performance altering drug of any kind for any reason to me is a short cut for lack of skill or patience and can put both in danger. As for foxhunters hunting under the influence? Learn how to ride or get a different horse!
                                      I was wondering about the side affects and thought that maybe I was crazy and made that all up. Does no one realize the side affects of ace on geldings?

                                      This style hunters and AQHA hunters are not all that far off anymore.
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                                      • #59
                                        I have seen way too many big barns that do not allow their students to come out and hack their own horse. The trainer rides 4 times a week and then the owner gets 2 lessons a week. Really? No wonder no one can ride anymore. And then the horse gets aced so its rider can have a good lesson. And of course they have a groom to tack up and untack so the owner has no "contact" with the animal. Seriously!

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                                        • #60
                                          [QUOTE=CHT;6366455]Not sure if you guys have super powered Ace in the US, but in my experience, 1 cc doesn't change a horse that much. My understanding is that is not really a tranq at that dose, as much as an anti-anxiety medication.[quote]

                                          In my experience, this is correct.

                                          While I admit to nothing, I have seen both Ace and reserpine work wonders in a training program. Flame me all you want, but seriously, we had a very abused, very neurotic pony come off a broker lot that we felt had some potential. Couldnt get near the thing with a saddle...couldnt brush him, couldnt even approach him with a spray bottle. he would kill himself if he heard a clipper. Dogs frightened the bejeezuz out of him.

                                          We started with reserpine (with the vet) just to let him know the world wasnt trying to kill him....then used ace in a tapering fashion over weeks. Pony, while still dificult and nervous, is now at least safe and mangeable.

                                          Starting him under saddle, we did the same thing (almost a year later). While still not an easy ride, damn pony can hop over a 3 ft course. NOT a child's pony for sure, but still has a job and is safe.

                                          I still hit him once in a while with half a cc of oral Ace when he flips his crazy switch.

                                          Flame away.....I stand by the fact that this pony is now safe from the meat man, does the jumpers with a good small adult, and has a fan club

                                          Oh...he is 22, by the way, so no youngin'. God knows how many years of abuse this little guy had prior to us snatching him out of the lot. At least he doesnt attack people at feeding time
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