• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.



Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Is this abuse? or am I overly sensitive? (warning- ranting- really long!)

  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Is this abuse? or am I overly sensitive? (warning- ranting- really long!)

    Ok, so I am using an alter because this is a VERY sore subject for me. So there is this big beautiful new barn that was just built across the street from my little farm, it was built for a VERY BNT. the other day I decide to go over and introduce myself, I have decided that I want to have a lesson once a month or so with a good trainer, and this one is definately over-qualified. Now I do level 2 and 3 jumpers at some big A shows with my gelding, and some eq, and have been riding all my life, so by no means am a beginner in terms of horse knowledge. I am thinking, scope out the situation, maybe I won't have to trailer far for my lessons!
    Anyway, I get there, and the assistant trainer/rider who looks to be 16 but is probably 22, is riding a STUNNING stallion. She informs me BNT is in Europe buying horses, but she can help me. the stallion, annoyed at being made to stand, starts pawing, then hops off the ground, a little mini-rear. SHe, mid-sentence, turns her crop over (its a big one) and BEATS him in the top of the head. he takes off, she halts, and walks back over to me. she tells me, he is a five year old and at the last show after the first round but before the jump off he decided he didn't want to play, and just stood in the corner rearing and the BNT couldn't do anything about it but dismount. SO while Mr. Trainer is horse-shopping this girls job is to "fix" the problem. As she is telling me this at least two other times the stallion barely raises his head and she wacks him HARD in the head and cheek, after each beating he gallops around the arena wildly. he is SO sweaty and I say "he looks tired", and she says "he should be, he was on the walker all night in the bitting rig." So anyway, I said nice to meet you and left.
    Sorry this is so long: This is my question: Do you think my gut feeling (disgust) is appropriate? or, do you think for a really bad rearer these are okay "training" methods? I hardly saw anything dangerous from the colt, but maybe I was seeing him being really really good. I can see why such a young stallion could be dangerous if he wanted to, it just didn't seem like it to me at the time. And, do you think its weird that the girl who I just met was so open about this horses problem, and her training?
    When the boogeyman goes to sleep, he checks the closet for George Morris. -mpsbarnmanager

  • #2
    To be honest, the all night on the walker in a bitting rig bothers me more than wacking a rearer on the head.

    A confirmed rearer is a dangerous animal and sometimes you have to take drastic action.
    OTOH she could have been WAY over reacting to not much misbehavior on his part. Without knowing his history it's hard to tell.

    Putting a horse on a hot walker all night is abusive. It's not like it is 'teaching' him anything.

    I wouldn't be interested in putting my horse in their hands.
    Nina's Story
    Epona Comm on FB


    • #3
      Well, yes you should be disgusted, and no- I have been to several farms where everyone thought 'interesting' methods were normal so there would be no need to hide them. Being on the walker in a bitting rig is bad- all night is abusive.

      I think there is a place for one light swat behind the poll when a horse rears (though its not my preferred method). I would never take a full out hit anywhere in front of the saddle- muchless on the cheek or poll.


      • #4
        The girl being so open to someone she just met is perhaps a little odd but some people do tend to talk with out thinking or when they get nervous and just keep talking.

        Having the horse on the walker all night i don't agree with. I have walked a horse for most of night when he was colicing but even then we had breaks.

        As for beating/hitting horse on head when rearing... have seen it done and does seem to work. But horse hasnt really been a chronic rearer so i guess depending on how hard shes hitting him and what not but definitly wouldnt be my first method of choice.

        Might be interesting to go back to barn when trainer is back and talk/see how things are when trainer is back. Give you a better idea of barn.

        A Wandering Albertan - NEW Africa travel blog!


        • #5
          I wouldn't judge the BNT too harshly until you see him/her actually condoning putting a horse on a walker all night in a bitting rig. This may have been the working student's bright idea. As for the whacking in the head - it's pretty effective at stopping a rearer.
          "Are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn. I can yawn, because I ride better than you. Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn. But you? Not so much..."
          -George Morris


          • #6

            trying not to hijack... but to understand better, what is a bitting rig? i know what hot walking is.

            as far as hitting with a crop, i don't totally agree with it. i know someone that uses a REALLY soft foamy bat thing. they don't hit the horse but just put it above their pole. this way they figure out hmmm i rear and hit something... no a good idea any more. it seems to work in milder cases.

            overall, i would have to say, just wait until the trainer gets home. other than the "assistant trainer experience" how was the barn/atmosphere/etc.
            "Life is a marathon, not a sprint. Things happen for a reason." - vxf111


            • #7
              Originally posted by BarbB View Post
              To be honest, the all night on the walker in a bitting rig bothers me more than wacking a rearer on the head.

              A confirmed rearer is a dangerous animal and sometimes you have to take drastic action.
              OTOH she could have been WAY over reacting to not much misbehavior on his part. Without knowing his history it's hard to tell.

              Putting a horse on a hot walker all night is abusive. It's not like it is 'teaching' him anything.

              I wouldn't be interested in putting my horse in their hands.
              Ditto that. The smack on the head wouldn't bother me, but the hot-walker thing definitely would.


              • #8
                Um..well....I think Im must be the only one who does not think its appropriate to belt a horse over or around the head when it rears.

                Never done it, never will.

                And as for all night on the walker....well, kind of says it all really.


                • #9
                  I would go back when the trainer is there and see how things seem. It is very possible that the trainer does not condone/is not aware of some of the things that are going on. It could just be an overconfident "assistant trainer" who thinks that she knows how to do things.

                  The overnight on the hot walker bothers me. Hitting the horse on the poll not so much, but it's hard to judge whether that's excessive or not without knowing the history of the horse. Maybe you're right and you did catch the horse on a good day. Having ridden a rearer once, and never again, it has to be taken very seriously IMO. At the time I wasn't experienced/comfortable enough to deal with it (not my horse, never rode it again) but I do know that a lot of people swear by a smack on the poll.
                  CRAYOLA POSSE - Olive Green
                  Champions aren't born. They are built little by little, day by day, with patience and love for the art. -Nick Skelton


                  • #10
                    Sounds to me, like there might be a little, to a lot of exaggeration, regarding leaving the horse on the walker all night in a rig. There are some crazy people out there, but I would imagine if they are going through the trouble to correct his behavior he must be of some value to them and leaving a horse on a walker all night in a rig unsupervised would more than likely result in a dead or seriously diminished horse.

                    I don't know the horse, or anything about him, but I do know that rearing can be a very serious issue, and that at 5 he is no longer a colt, he is a stud, and while some studs are great, some are just pure nasty to work with, and concerning the later, it is critical that they learn to behave if they are going to have any type of career, including as a sire.

                    I am not an advocate of smacking a rearer on the pole; I think there are alternative methods that work just as well. However I also know the smacking method does work, and is not nearly as traumatic as it may appear.

                    I think the bottom line is, as much as we hate some of the practices, horses in our "environment" generally have to be able to do a job, and if they can't, the alternative can be much worse than the methods employed trying to achieve that goal.

                    So I would reserve judgment regarding the stable, and the trainer, even the assistant, until I knew a lot more about their over-all philosophy.


                    • #11
                      Rearing is one of the most dangerous things a horse can do, and one of the hardest to really cure. I hope this horse decides to give it up. I would worry about his fate if not. Overconfident young trainer could well be the case in terms of her lack of diplomacy in your presence. Hot walker in bitting rig all not - definitely abuse.


                      • #12
                        As others mentioned, I would go back when the BNT is there. The assistant wasn't out of place smacking the horse in the head for rearing. It's a serious problem and there really isn't a margin (meaning some people might say that a horse that bucks only gets punished for an actual buck, but if he wants to kick out during a lead change, have fun...you can't say if he only hops up 12-24 inches, we'll let it go...)

                        And my guess is by "all night" it was something more of an hour or 2 the evening before. If he is valuable enough to work on his rearing issue, they wouldn't just toss him on a walker, turn out the lights, and leave him there.

                        We don't know anything at all about this horse. Maybe it is a chronic problem. Just because she only told you 1 story, doesn't mean that was the one and only time he was being a jerk. And as for his reaction to getting smacked, well yea he probably did take off running and get sweaty. He's pissed off. He's trying to do things his way, when he wants to, how he wants to, and now there is someone telling him no. My guess is tearing around the ring was a temper tantrum, not terror from him.

                        Some horses need to be treated with a little muscle for awhile to learn they are not in charge. That's not all horses, there are plenty that need finesse and patience, and that should ALWAYS be the first and preferred method, but there is one in every crowd that needs a stronger hand to learn a little respect.
                        Strong promoter of READING the entire post before responding.


                        • #13
                          I have a feeling the statement "on the hot walker ALL NIGHT with a bitting rig" was probably a gross exaggeration...It's probably more likely he was on the walker in a rig for a considerable amount of time, but I highly doubt it was literally all night...but then again, WHO KNOWS!

                          The smaking on the head does not bother me one bit for a confirmed rearer...that is an incredibly dangerous habit, one that could kill the rider and the horse ....and wacking them in the head when they even consider coming off the ground does tend to help in many cases....


                          • #14
                            IMHO I have delt with this issue before and to be honest the head thing does not bother me one bit. A rearing horse is the equivalant of someone putting a gun to your head. If they go over you could be dead in the snap of your fingers. That being said the horse must be of some value to work through the problem. There are many other interesting ways to work on fixing that problem that are not as nice as a bump on the head.

                            As for the walker all night long definitly a little extreme. I have left horses tied around for a few hours to think things over before, but all night seems like an exaguration.
                            grand prix


                            • #15
                              i agree with some posters that said i could have just been the younger girls bright idea.

                              I have been told that if you have a horse that rears and time it right, you crack an egg on their head. they feel the dripping like blood and never do it again... it actually worked on one off track gelding i know that was a very bad rearer. anyone else ever hear of this?

                              I would talk to BNT when he or she gets back from europe. and judge things in a different light once you have also met them.
                              Courage. Confidence. Passion.


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
                                I wouldn't judge the BNT too harshly until you see him/her actually condoning putting a horse on a walker all night in a bitting rig. This may have been the working student's bright idea. As for the whacking in the head - it's pretty effective at stopping a rearer.
                                Exactly what I was thinking.


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by IfWishesWereHorses View Post
                                  Um..well....I think Im must be the only one who does not think its appropriate to belt a horse over or around the head when it rears.
                                  No, I agree with you, but very sadly, we do seem to be in the minority. I totally agree rearing is extremely dangerous for both horse and rider, but if that is all you have for training techniques then I would run NOT walk from that said trainer, b/c they don't have much depth nor patience which is a good quality in a trainer particular with babies.

                                  I am also amazed that no one seems to think her boss, the BNT, isn't responsible for knowing how and what she is doing to horses sent to be under his care and subsequently under the care of those he employs. It is HIS responsibility to BE SURE he knows what is going on, choosing to be ignorant isn't an excuse, it is a choice and does NOT limit your responsibility.

                                  www.brydellefarm.com ....developing riders, NOT passengers!
                                  Member of LNHorsemanshipT & Proud of It Clique
                                  "What gets me up every morning is realizing how much more there is still to learn." -GHM


                                  • #18
                                    Have you ever sat on a habitual rearer....? Ever tried to work with one...
                                    That is one of the more mild things that people do to horses that rear....Have you ever seen what a "cowboy" does to these types or horses that are sent to them???
                                    Many of these horse have NO sense of self preservation - there are many that infact DO kill themselves and kill or seriously harm their riders/trainers.
                                    Smacking them over the head with you palm or the bat (crop) is sometimes the answer - these are 1000lb animals that sometimes have NO idea how large they are and how much danger they are putting themselves in....I would rather pop one on top of the head a few times then stand there next to the horse dead on the ground or paralized b/c it reared too high one to many times and flipped...


                                    • #19
                                      For those of you advocating NOT using a crop on the head of a horse that rears... what would you do instead? And have you ever worked with a chronic rear-er?

                                      I personally have never ridden a horse that rears, and never intend to. As such, I can't really judge other people's methods - a horse who rears is NOT a horse with a good future. If a little muscle has to be used to cure the habit, it's in the best interest of the horse to do so. The key being of course if it *has* to be used. There might be better ways, but I don't know of any.

                                      I would definitely go back once the BNT is back, watch a few lessons and/or training sessions, and see if the overall philosophy seems to work for you. I would have felt uncomfortable watching the girl on that horse, too, but again - I'm not qualified to judge someone working with a horse that dangerous (if he really was).


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
                                        I wouldn't judge the BNT too harshly until you see him/her actually condoning putting a horse on a walker all night in a bitting rig. This may have been the working student's bright idea. As for the whacking in the head - it's pretty effective at stopping a rearer.

                                        I agree. If the BNT condones the hotwalker idea, then yes, I feel he/she is being abusive. Hopefully, that is not the case. The problem with rearing is its very dangerous. My attitude is a few minutes of discomfort caused by hitting the rearing horse on the head may be better than risking a horse that could seriously hurt others and himself. I've worked with a couple and this method does in fact usually work.