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Is this abuse? or am I overly sensitive? (warning- ranting- really long!)

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  • Originally posted by Brydelle Farm View Post
    It is a case per case basis, b/c not all horses rear for the same reasons. I will never be stronger than horse but I can be smarter, so you have to figure out what is the problem or the root of the issue, then address those. It does take time and patience, that is a definite!
    I certainly know of some horse which, if you smacked them on the head for a rear, would rear higher or go into a bucking, not running fit. I've seen it. No cure for them by that method, and it doesn't seem to be working for the horse described. I agree rearing is VERY dangerous, but this seems to be unreasoning reaction: Not trying to figure out the why and addressing that.

    The hot walker business - I certainly hope that was an exaggeration. Did she sit there all night and keep an eye on him - she should be pretty tired too!

    Comment


    • Yeah...and she apparently forgot to turn it off when she took the horse off until BF reminded her it was still running. Or she left it running all night and invented putting a horse on it all night to excuse leaving it on.

      Bet boss will be real pleased with that power bill.

      If it's true...I wonder what the heck she did do with the horse on there in sidereins. Go home and leave it by itself for 10/12 hours?

      The logistics suggest some exaggeration took place.
      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

      Comment


      • Figure of speach perhaps?
        All night could have meant 3-4 hours in the evening. She didn't say over-night which would have been more specific.

        As to the crop between the ears thing.. unless you have had to fix a rear-er you have no idea what it's like to basically be sitting on a time bomb.
        At any point they could go over and wreck you career or cost you your life. They have to associate the behavior with quick swift consiquences.
        There are no second chances to get the message through if the horse goes over,and a few hours on a hot- walker may take enough of the fizz out and make the horse a bit more managable. If he weas galloping off after correction even when tired imagine how he would have been when fresh.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by 00Jumper View Post
          As others before me have said, the smack between the ears is actually a pretty effective way of curing a rearer. An egg broken between the ears also seems to work on some horses, but it is messy and gross and full of salmonella.

          I believe that the "egg thing" would be effective. When the horse rears, you smash the egg in between his/her ears, and the horse thinks that it hit his/her head on something. The egg that trickles down would feel like blood dripping down, and be confuse the horse. When used, it would shock the horse, and if the "egg thing" is used every time the horse rears, the horse would believe that it is getting seriously hurt every time it rears. The downsides- carrying the eggs, and cleaning up after. ;]

          Comment


          • Breaking a water balloon between the ears is very effective, less mess, and easy to carry......I've seen it work long term on several.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by IfWishesWereHorses View Post
              Um..well....I think Im must be the only one who does not think its appropriate to belt a horse over or around the head when it rears.

              Never done it, never will.

              And as for all night on the walker....well, kind of says it all really.
              I've handled several stallions, one of whom was a rearer as a yearling/two year old and nearly killed himself on the lungeline with a bitting rig on when something spooked him and he went over backwords, had a severe concussion and spent 2 weeks in the ICU. I didn't think I'd ever be able to ride him again because for over two months his balance was affected and his tempermant was abnormal for him. (very jumpy)
              Anyway, I've always been taught to whack on the front legs of a rearing horse while you are on the ground and never, ever over the head as it will make it worse. If on the horse, whack him behind the saddle and make him go forward. He can't go forward and rear at the same time. If that doesn't work, get off and whack the front legs.
              As far as bitting rig on the walker all night-who was watching the horse to make sure he didn't get into serious trouble? That sounds not only cruel but dangerous without supervision. He could have flipped backwards and been all tangled in the rig/walker line for hours before anyone found him.
              If this BNT has such a sour young stallion that he can't get him in the ring I would walk away and find someone else to help you with your horse. Good luck!!!
              Tracy

              Comment


              • Originally posted by in limine View Post
                While I appreciate your comments, diffuse01, I find it interesting that you would rather argue about whether my personal experiences are credible instead of contemplating whether hitting a horse on the head is abusive and should be condoned as an acceptable training method. Clearly, my comments have hit a nerve.
                (btw, I didn't say hitting a horse on its poll 'will' kill it, I said it 'could' ... and is only one of many outcomes detrimental to the horse's health).
                I'm with everyone else. I hardly doubt hitting a horse with one good whack on the poll with a crop could or would kill it. But you know what will? Rearing and falling back on it's poll when it's head hits the ground. And in the process it could kill you too!

                I've used this method MANY times and never had a problem again. It's hardly abuse and I know many many people who have had success with it. It has nothing to do with being patient, it has to do with getting rid of a serious problem FAST...so that you don't have to be faced with the situation in a show ring and risk being eliminated for hitting your horse over the head.

                But I will also say, everyone has their own method of doing things and if you don't agree, you don't agree and if what you do works for you, that's cool. I won't tell you you're wrong. Your method seems to be a good one for those of us that want to use it, but with horses and these serious problems of rearing, I'd say the majority of us kinda wanna get that problem out of the way sooner than later.

                And as far as leaving a horse on the hot walker all night, for sure it's a bad thing but I would see that as a HUGE exageration.

                AND
                Originally posted by Abby Kogler View Post
                >

                Whatever. Horses dont need to be hit in the head for rearing. Anyone, anyone who says so or thinks so is a moron. Its beyond discussion. Fuss and snit all you want, make excuses all you want, come up with examples all you want, whatever. You hit your horse in the head for rearing? You arent on my planet.

                Abby
                Are you serious????
                And as for your comments about the AQHA...you are hitting a nerve there. I grew up showing QH's and ours were the happiest horses there ever were and very well behaved as well. There are bad practices ALL OVER THE HORSE WORLD! There are always gonna be people who disagree with what you do, because we are in a world where we all think we're right...welcome if you're just now getting into town!
                Last edited by jse; Aug. 8, 2008, 05:37 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by huntrpaint View Post
                  Anyway, I've always been taught to whack on the front legs of a rearing horse while you are on the ground and never, ever over the head as it will make it worse. If on the horse, whack him behind the saddle and make him go forward. He can't go forward and rear at the same time. If that doesn't work, get off and whack the front legs.
                  The underline is mine.
                  I can't believe there are over a hundred posts on this thread. I thought it died long ago.

                  But I read this and had to jump in. This particular method is abuse.
                  By the time you get off of the horse and start hitting him on the legs it is way too late. He has no idea what you are hitting him for, several things have happened since he reared. From his point of view you are just attacking him....of course if you wait this long to correct a horse on a regular basis he probably thinks you are just looney tunes anyway.

                  This particular correction is just going to encourage him to keep his legs in the air...but the slowness of this response is what really makes it bad.

                  This is probably my biggest pet peeve about training any animal....the physical correction that is not immediate. The time lag makes it useless as a correction and teaches the animal that you cannot be trusted.

                  this was just a sidebar....carry on
                  Nina's Story
                  Epona Comm on FB

                  Comment


                  • IMO, rearing is completely unacceptable and DANGEROUS if put into the wrong hands. I've seen one too many horses flip over backwards and do some serious, even life-threatening damage to their back and neck. Not exactly something you want to play "Mr. Nice Guy" with...I've ridden quite a few brats that would just stand up to see what they could get away with. Either that or resitance to go forward. Any horse that rears on me, for whatever reason, gets smacked between the ears right away and then its over. If I have a short crop or bat on me, I'll use that. And believe you me, it does work but the worst mistake you can make is getting off, or handling it too quietly. A firm "NO!" does not always do the trick...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by BarbB View Post
                      To be honest, the all night on the walker in a bitting rig bothers me more than wacking a rearer on the head.

                      Agreed. With a horse that rears, everything from not wanting to go forward and backing up to a full-blown rear should be treated as a rear. The horse is resisting going forward-and eventually will rear.

                      I don't mind putting a horse outside all night long to make it a little tired in the morning. Sometimes you need to actually do some training on them and not spend the time dealing with freshness. And lounging and galloping them for a half hour eventually makes them TOO fit.

                      I say try a lesson. You will be the rider. I'm sure you can learn a lot from thisrainer.

                      Comment


                      • Know I shouldn't but...

                        How in heck are you going to get off an excited horse and hang on to it while hitting it on the front legs?

                        You have, like, a half second MAX to do anything when they start to go up IF it is a real rear and not some sulky, ill behaved horse just popping up instead of going forward?

                        And jumping in front of an excited horse standing up on it's hind legs after abruptly bailing out waving a whip in it's face trying to hit the front legs is going to send that sucker running backwards for it's very life if it doesn't flip over. Anybody with half a brain is going to bail and just let it go instead of trying to hang onto it while whipping it and standing that close to it.

                        That's just nuts.
                        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                        Comment


                        • Right on, findeight. Moreover, teaching the horse that every time he rears you jump off is nothing but counterproductive and will escalate the behavior.

                          As for those who want to let the horse continue rearing because he had a bad childhood or whatever, remind me not to ride your spoiled, dangerous beasts....

                          Sometimes the nicest thing you can do to a horse is whack him on the head. If the horse is allowed to get away with dangerous behavior like rearing, it could end up facing behavior-related euthanasia or worse.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by BarbB View Post
                            The underline is mine.
                            I can't believe there are over a hundred posts on this thread. I thought it died long ago.

                            But I read this and had to jump in. This particular method is abuse.
                            By the time you get off of the horse and start hitting him on the legs it is way too late. He has no idea what you are hitting him for, several things have happened since he reared. From his point of view you are just attacking him....of course if you wait this long to correct a horse on a regular basis he probably thinks you are just looney tunes anyway.

                            This particular correction is just going to encourage him to keep his legs in the air...but the slowness of this response is what really makes it bad.

                            This is probably my biggest pet peeve about training any animal....the physical correction that is not immediate. The time lag makes it useless as a correction and teaches the animal that you cannot be trusted.

                            this was just a sidebar....carry on
                            Well said!

                            As for rearing - each horse requires a different response IMO - what works for one won't work for another. For some a bop between the ears and the issue is resolved. For others just urging forward as you feel the lightness up front will stop it. It all depends. When I was a teenager, I remember being on one that was flipped purposely - well more pulled to his butt - I'm not that quick anymore and wouldn't sign up for that these days. It's a "cowboy" method but sometimes it has its place.

                            One thing that drives me nuts is no correction at all. There was a nice horse at one barn that would get a bit up and rear on occasion - nothing that keeping her forward wouldn't have stopped. Instead, the rider would get off and take her back to the stall. Then they all wondered why she started rearing more often. Why not? Rearing equals end of work and back to stall and food.

                            Comment


                            • Not saying smacking it over the head is going to do much besides distract it for long enough for you to either get control of jump off. Not much of a training technique. Self defense.

                              But it (and the water balloon or egg broken over the poll) is true it MIGHT make the not particularly bright horse think there was something over his head he smacked into that he did not see. That might always be there. Therefore he might hurt himself by going up because there could be something there.
                              Only works once or twice though. Do it often and horse figures out there may be something there but it's not going to kill him so learns to ignore it.

                              Have to laugh here, the ones I have encountered that did this were not other wise well behaved and it did not come out of nowhere. They were brats and just plain tough to work with. The last thing I'd want is to try to get on a known tough one with an egg or water balloon in one hand and ride around waiting for it to go up. The logistics just do not work for me.


                              I just will not have or ride one that goes up for real.
                              When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                              The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                              Comment


                              • I'd like to know if there is anyone on here who has actually tried the egg trick themselves. So far, IIRC people have said they "have heard" about it or the water balloon method but I don't think anyone has actually said that they used it on a horse.

                                So, if anyone has used the egg trick (or water balloon) please describe how you managed it without being covered in egg (or water) yourself. Any horse that I have worked with that had a rearing problem, definitely needed all my attention so I'm not sure how I would have juggled eggs or water balloons while riding. I'd be really interested in hearing a first hand experience.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by lcw579 View Post
                                  I'd like to know if there is anyone on here who has actually tried the egg trick themselves. So far, IIRC people have said they "have heard" about it or the water balloon method but I don't think anyone has actually said that they used it on a horse.

                                  So, if anyone has used the egg trick (or water balloon) please describe how you managed it without being covered in egg (or water) yourself. Any horse that I have worked with that had a rearing problem, definitely needed all my attention so I'm not sure how I would have juggled eggs or water balloons while riding. I'd be really interested in hearing a first hand experience.
                                  I did, when I was young and stupid. Thought I could cure a friends mare of what we thought was rearing but now know was just sulky mare crap from a spoiled brat princess. She did not really stand up, just popped when she didn't get her way-correct "cure" would have been a sharp smack on the rump.

                                  Anyway, filled the water balloon up and...could not get on the horse even with the western saddle and small size involved. She kept moving around, I was by myself and only had the one hand free while trying to juggle that full water ballon and not get soaked. No way she would let me get my foot in that stirrup.

                                  I got frustrated, mare gleefully realized who was in control. End of experiment. I recall I ended up throwing it at her when she pulled back and got loose. Missed.. Was not so funny back then.

                                  Over 40 years I have heard about the egg and balloon and NEVER EVER NOT ONCE seen actually anybody do it. Closest I came was my own sorry debacle.
                                  When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                  The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                  Comment


                                  • Thanks, findeight, I needed that giggle! Your experience is exactly what I picture whenever I think about someone actually trying one of these techniques!

                                    So, it appears we are still waiting to hear a firsthand account of the successful use of egg or water balloon .....

                                    Comment


                                    • Personally, I have seen exactly one method permanently fix a chronic rearer - the trainer who is athletic enough to pull them over on their side when they go up (in a soft arena, of course) and step off safely as they are doing so.

                                      However, in this case I agree that all night on the hotwalker bothers me much worse than a smack on the head. Particularly if the horse was left unsupervised. But again, who knows if the BNT truly knew about and condoned that?

                                      Comment

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