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Is this abuse? or am I overly sensitive? (warning- ranting- really long!)

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  • #41
    can't a horse still rear in a bitting rig and on a hot walker? So if that's true, what does that teach the horse other than "my owners suck!"?

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by ItchyRichie View Post
      can't a horse still rear in a bitting rig and on a hot walker? So if that's true, what does that teach the horse other than "my owners suck!"?
      Errrr...did we establish this girl who looked 16 but "was probably 22 and the assistant trainer" really WAS the assistant trainer and not, in fact, some 16 yo kid who fancied herself assistant trainer instead of WS...or less?

      What seems amiss here is all this talk describing misbehavior and the open clubbing of the horse in front of a visitor who could be a prospective client-highly unusual and unprofessional. This on top of the...errr...creative training methods demonstrated and described. That is stuff most are not dumb enough to admit doing to "subdue" the beasts even if they are among the 1% that stoop to such tactics.

      Sure as heck not going to speak to a visitor about how difficult horses in their care are, that's just nuts.

      It is remotely possible this is on the level BUT I would pay another visit after that Pro comes home and wait to conclude anything....I wonder if s/he even knows this is going on. Wouldn't be the first time the help took a little too much initiative.

      Oh....I'd crack one with whatever I had in self defense of they went up like that on me. ONCE. Then I would get off and figure out what was wrong and how to fix it in a more acceptable way.
      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

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      • #43
        Originally posted by MayS View Post
        "Hi, I am ______ an Expert Rider on behalf of Expert Village. I am going to show you the following in my video..."

        1) How to train a horse to be head-shy in just a few easy steps. Also, how to work him to exhaustion while teaching him nothing.

        2) Ignoring the cause or signfiicance of a big stallion rearing as a habit. Just bop him in the head... more fun than Whack-a-mole!

        3) As a pro trainer, how to impress a new prosective client with your unique training techniques.


        [this is at best poor training -- run away!]

        Comment


        • #44
          My first thought is, Why is the horse rearing? Maybe it is rearing because it is back sore form being on a walker in a bitting rig all night.

          I just hope before they started wacking it over the head, they evaluated its soundness and training techniques. the girl said it reared so much at a show that all they could do is get off and lead it out. Doesn't sound like something a horse does for no reason, cause he just felt like it. Sounds like he is anxious about something and acting out. But we aren't there to know for sure.
          ~*Adult Pony Rider Clique*~
          www.timberrunponies.com

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          • Original Poster

            #45
            wow thanks for all the replies! So I have had time to think about it and cool off, and I think I will go back once Mr. Trainer gets home, and talk to him because it would be nice, location wise, to have an occasional lesson thirty seconds away instead of two hours (which is what I do now!) YOu guys are the best!

            and I do think it was literrally all night, because she said how when she came back to throw hay her boyfriend asked why the walker was running at night and if it was broken.
            When the boogeyman goes to sleep, he checks the closet for George Morris. -mpsbarnmanager

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            • #46
              I SO would not be surprised if the "assistant trainer" isn't, in fact, the assistant trainer. Agree with everyone. GO TALK TO THE BNT! I like the idea of "how's that nice young, stud doing that I saw on my last visit?"

              And, having been totally heartbroken by a rearer (who I STILL think of things that I didn't think of when trying to get to the bottom of the issue), I don't take a horse that goes up, even a little, lightly. A whack across the noggin from my stick is a whole lot better than him going up and over and breaking killing me and/or him. I use it, willingly. It is one of many tools in my toolbox, but it is there and I use it. Thankfully, I don't have to use it very often.

              I will also say that while I TOTALLY agree with the need to get to the bottom of the issue, be it physical or training related, I consider rearing a totally unacceptable reaction to ANYTHING. So, if they go up, even a little, they are reprimanded appropriately, THEN we ask questions. Might not seem like the right response to those who've not had to deal with a dangerous rearer, but for those of us who have, it is ALWAYS a shoot first, ask questions later type of behavior.

              The all night in the walker (bitting rig or not) is an issue, but most likely a gross exaggeration...and yet another clue to the girl probably not being who she says she is.
              Amanda

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              • #47
                Originally posted by yellowbritches View Post
                I will also say that while I TOTALLY agree with the need to get to the bottom of the issue, be it physical or training related, I consider rearing a totally unacceptable reaction to ANYTHING. So, if they go up, even a little, they are reprimanded appropriately, THEN we ask questions. Might not seem like the right response to those who've not had to deal with a dangerous rearer, but for those of us who have, it is ALWAYS a shoot first, ask questions later type of behavior.
                Totally, 110% agree with this. I don't care what causes the behavior, it must be dealt with swiftly, right when it happens. Plenty of time to worry about the physical problems later.

                Comment


                • #48
                  I'm with most of you. The hot walker thing seems really wrong, but the smaking for the rearing doesn't bother me more than that.

                  I mean the OP mentioned that the very BNT had to get off the horse at a show because the rearing was so bad. It takes probably more than a little hop off the ground for a BNT to get off a horse !

                  Having trained many, many, many stallions in the past, let me tell you that they don't react like mares and gelding. They don't respond well to beating but on the other hand you need to be way firmer with them than what you would do with an other horse.

                  Stallions also have a tendency to not want to go forward naturally (even if you think they are, in the back of their mind they are always thinking on their own term).

                  So, if he is a chronic rearer and a stud, the smack and making him go forward by making him gallop around the arena is not out of place ... i have seen it done before.

                  I agree with the fact that they should try to understand what is triggering the behaviour.
                  Last edited by mademoiselle; Aug. 2, 2008, 11:52 AM.

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by yellowbritches View Post
                    I SO would not be surprised if the "assistant trainer" isn't, in fact, the assistant trainer.
                    Agreed. I knew a girl, a teenager, several years ago who hacked horses for the barn's trainer. She was a self-proclaimed Assistant Trainer. She was also rough and short-tempered and didn't hack their horses for terribly long.

                    Yes, go back when the trainer is around. Perhaps mention you stopped by, but he wasn't there. "I stopped by to speak with you a few weeks ago, but you were out of town. I did get to meet your assistant trainer though."

                    I wouldn't make any judgements 'till you meet the trainer.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by yellowbritches View Post
                      I will also say that while I TOTALLY agree with the need to get to the bottom of the issue, be it physical or training related, I consider rearing a totally unacceptable reaction to ANYTHING. So, if they go up, even a little, they are reprimanded appropriately, THEN we ask questions. Might not seem like the right response to those who've not had to deal with a dangerous rearer, but for those of us who have, it is ALWAYS a shoot first, ask questions later type of behavior.
                      Agree. I've actually dealt with two ponies that have decided rearing was 'fun'. One just did not want to stand still on certain days, so instead, he'd do these little hoppy rears. Only took two times for me to decide that wasn't going to work, so I carried a crop one day and when he did it, he got whacked between the ears. He never did it with me again.
                      The other one, Clyde (who I still have), went through a phase where he'd rear if he didn't want to move forward toward whatever he was spooking at. I did the same thing with him, and he's never done it again.

                      So if that's what it takes to nip it in the bud, then I'll continue to do it! I don't see it as abuse as long as it's done properly, and it's not excessive.
                      -Kady

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                      • #51
                        Hitting a horse on the poll when they rear i think is one of the most effective manners of trying to cure it. they think they're hitting their head on something and would rather not rear anymore because they dont like to hit their head.

                        Ive very rarely ever had to do it, but like others said, rearing is one of the most dangerous situations to be in. Usuing excessive force while doing this though, shouldn't be tolerated. The horse being five and being stubborn-thats understandable. I have had a few that are young and had their stubborn ways just as this. more of a tempermental thing if anything. they eventuallly grew up and got over it.

                        The night on the hot walker is rediculous. it may have been exhagerated but if the BNT wasnt there...she may have taken it upon herself to do this all on her own. I'd wait til he gets back and see talk your situation over with him and maybe briefly mention what you came across when you dropped by and just mention that you were concerned. mentioning it could possibly cure the situation

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Yes Virginia, this is abuse

                          I am saddened that there are still so many horse people who believe that it is acceptable to hit a horse on the head to correct rearing.

                          I have ridden many horses who rear (both chronic and one-timers), and at one time (decades ago) believed as you did - that the solution was to scare/punish/deter the horse by hitting them on the head - with the false assumption that such treatment would make the horse believe they had hit their head on a low ceiling and thus detering them from that behavior. That is simply wrong.

                          Today, the only acceptable solution is to TRAIN the horse to accept the rider's aids. How? By first understanding that when a horse rears they are acting instinctively (flight or fight) and are not rearing to scare me, or pick a fight. Quite the opposite - the horse who rears is afraid and is trying to escape.

                          For all of you that say 'a horse who rears is dangerous and that behavior is unacceptable' need to ask why you are working with horses to begin with. Rearing is a natural horse behavior. They do it in the field with other horses (and even alone) quite frequently. Why would we expect them to suddenly stop acting like a horse simply because we are on their backs?

                          Second, the training solution is simple but requires TIME, which many people simply are not willing to invest. Go back to the beginning of the horse's training and fill in the holes. Slow down the approach - back off. Remember the principles - free, forward, straight. There is a technique that I have used with outstanding results that encourages the horse to respond differently (to go forward) when they feel trapped/confused/afraid instead of rearing. In fact, many horses rear because they CANNOT (or are not being allowed to) go forward.

                          Finally, those of you who advocate hitting a horse on its poll (which incidentally can kill them) when it rears should seek professional help from someone who understands the circumstances and can deal with it without adding fuel to the fire and continuing the cycle of abuse.
                          Last edited by in limine; Aug. 2, 2008, 05:34 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            I think most people have agreed that when you have a horse that rears, you need to find the underlying problem and work on that. However, IMO, when a horse goes up on you, you do what you have to do in that minute to keep yourself safe. It only takes a second for a horse to go over on you.

                            Also, I don't think you can kill a horse buy hitting them on the poll in the manner that we are discussing here. I'm sure everyone is aware that a horse hitting it's poll can die, but a smack with a crop won't kill him.
                            CRAYOLA POSSE - Olive Green
                            Champions aren't born. They are built little by little, day by day, with patience and love for the art. -Nick Skelton

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              learn more about this,but , NO!

                              until you know that stallion better, i would be careful about making judgments; about her ; however, , the walker and the bitting all night long would send me out the door ASAP!and I i would NOT have her touch one of my horses! her touch one of my horses!
                              breeder of Mercury!

                              remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                jimmyW illiams ,advice!

                                remember, if you are going to get in a physical fight with a horse, you are fighting out of your weight class!
                                breeder of Mercury!

                                remember to enjoy the moment, and take a moment to enjoy and give God the glory for these wonderful horses in our lives.BECAUSE: LIFE is What Happens While Making Other Plans

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  Originally posted by in limine View Post
                                  Finally, those of you who advocate hitting a horse on its poll (which incidentally can kill them) when it rears should seek professional help from someone who understands the circumstances and can deal with it without adding fuel to the fire and continuing the cycle of abuse.
                                  No, don't hit the poor horsie, you might KILL him!

                                  Hehehe. Get real.

                                  Seriously, though, a good smack will cure a number of ills. There is nothing abusive about firm, fair, consistent discipline.

                                  I agree that many horses rear as an evasion, but IMO the best response is to swiftly and decisively remove that option from the horse's repertoire. Then you replace it with the correct behavior-- going forward. Following this approach from the beginning can mean the difference between a one-time thing and a chronic rearer. OTOH, if you back off every time the horse rears, you're going to create a problem.

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by Angel Undercover View Post
                                    I think most people have agreed that when you have a horse that rears, you need to find the underlying problem and work on that. However, IMO, when a horse goes up on you, you do what you have to do in that minute to keep yourself safe. It only takes a second for a horse to go over on you.

                                    Also, I don't think you can kill a horse buy hitting them on the poll in the manner that we are discussing here. I'm sure everyone is aware that a horse hitting it's poll can die, but a smack with a crop won't kill him.
                                    Yes, I know about horses going over backward. Been there, done that and lived to tell about it. But here's the thing. Hitting a horse after they have come off the ground does NOT prevent rearing. (and with some horses can actually make them rear more and higher - again, to get away from what is scaring/upsetting them).

                                    Instead of having a discussion on the proper technique for hitting the horse on the head (OMG), let's discuss the training techniques that DON't involve physical beatings after the fact. Again, go back to basics. Do more ground work to ensure your horse understands the aids to go forward. Learn to anticipate the signs of a horse about to rear and significantly bend them. A bent horse has a hard time going up. Teach our horses that they can go forward, without punishment, by riding with soft hands. Don't ride a difficult horse if you don't have the appropriate skill set for it. In the OP's example, a 5 yr old stallion with a history of rearing is not an easy ride.

                                    I realize that changing one's perspective is hard, but how can anyone promote hitting a horse on its head as an acceptable training method? May I also point out, that doing so in competition will get you eliminated. Why do you think that rule is in place?

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by in limine View Post
                                      Today, the only acceptable solution is to TRAIN the horse to accept the rider's aids. How? By first understanding that when a horse rears they are acting instinctively (flight or fight) and are not rearing to scare me, or pick a fight. Quite the opposite - the horse who rears is afraid and is trying to escape.

                                      Finally, those of you who advocate hitting a horse on its poll (which incidentally can kill them) when it rears should seek professional help from someone who understands the circumstances and can deal with it without adding fuel to the fire and continuing the cycle of abuse.
                                      Well, number one, apparently it (smacking them between the ears with a crop) is somewhat accepted by many people; you have quite a few here that have done it. And number two, are you serious? Hitting a horse on the poll with a crop isn't going to kill it.
                                      I'm not saying sit there and beat the horse over the head with a crop, I'm talking one firm whack between the ears when they rear up. I think someone else here also said that while she understands you should look at other factors that may be causing them to rear, rearing is still UNACCEPTABLE, regardless of if something is wrong. I completely agree with that.

                                      Originally posted by in limine View Post
                                      Yes, I know about horses going over backward. Been there, done that and lived to tell about it. But here's the thing. Hitting a horse after they have come off the ground does NOT prevent rearing. (and with some horses can actually make them rear more and higher - again, to get away from what is scaring/upsetting them).
                                      Really? Seemed to prevent my two from ever rearing undersaddle again. One of them came straight down and went back to work, the other did get somewhat upset (he's an anxious/nervous/takes everything too seriously type), but you know what? It was worth it because he got the picture and has never done it again. So your theory is wrong, in my cases anyway.
                                      -Kady

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by Carol Ames View Post
                                        remember, if you are going to get in a physical fight with a horse, you are fighting out of your weight class!
                                        Oh, good one!!! Thanks CA!!
                                        www.brydellefarm.com ....developing riders, NOT passengers!
                                        Member of LNHorsemanshipT & Proud of It Clique
                                        "What gets me up every morning is realizing how much more there is still to learn." -GHM

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          While I appreciate your comments, diffuse01, I find it interesting that you would rather argue about whether my personal experiences are credible instead of contemplating whether hitting a horse on the head is abusive and should be condoned as an acceptable training method. Clearly, my comments have hit a nerve.
                                          (btw, I didn't say hitting a horse on its poll 'will' kill it, I said it 'could' ... and is only one of many outcomes detrimental to the horse's health).

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