• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Transfer of Ownership with USEF

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Transfer of Ownership with USEF

    I recently sold a horse on payments - 50% down and 50% in 6 months. Without my knowledge, the buyer changed the horse's name and ownership with USEF. I understood that ownership couldn't be transferred without a bill of sale showing payment in full, which won't be until Oct. 2012. This is the only horse I've ever owned or sold. Am I right to be upset?

  • #2
    Selling on payments doesn't in itself mean ownership doesn't transfer until the final payment is made...what did your contract say about the transfer of ownership? USEF may consider the payment contract + possession to equal ownership.

    (an example would be buying a car with the dealership financing...you still own the car and can put it in your name).

    So you may or may not have a legit complaint...it just depends on your contract.

    Now if they don't make the final payments and you take back the horse, then take the cost of the transfer out of any refund you have stipulated in the contract.
    Freeing worms from cans everywhere!

    Comment


    • #3
      That is not a transfer, but rather a new identity (provided horse was registered with USEF under a different name while you had it). Do you have a written Purchase Agreement regarding the transaction? Can you prove you own the horse in the first place? Is the horse now located in another state? Are you afraid for some reason to contact the Buyer or his agent?
      Does the horse have a prior show record that would prevent it from showing in green divisions if the name were not changed?
      USEF won't go for that.

      Comment


      • #4
        You can make up a new name without proof of anything. One can do that online. That means the horse has a new number and the old show record will not appear under new name. Unless you alert USEF to what happened, "new" horse will be eligible everything. USEF doesn't normally catch on to these things by themselves.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          They did a transfer of ownership and change of name. The horse's ID# is the same. The bill of sale clearly showed that horse would not be paid in full until Oct. 2012. The horse has an extensive show record over two years in the jumpers. I asked if they planned to do rated shows and he said he'd use my name as owner. I know his daughter wanted to change the name, but I didn't think they had the right to do so until they had paid full price for the horse.

          I have an email into the agent. I just discovered this tonight and wanted to get some perspective from those who know a lot more than I.

          Thanks!

          Comment


          • #6
            USEF isn't an ownership registry.
            They could have simply gotten a new ID and it looks like the new owners did the right thing by doing a transfer.

            If they hadn't done a transfer then you would have to sign every entry blank and be liable for any USEF fines ( bad checks, owner sanctions for drug violations) for a horse you have no control over.
            And you'd be responsible for USEF recording fees for the horse and be required to maintain USEF membership as an owner.
            Be glad they followed the rules.

            I doubt USEF looked at the fine print in the bill of sale.

            Comment


            • #7
              I thought both the previous owner and new owner were required to sign the transfer of ownership form? Has this changed?

              When I bought my mare, it was from a very good friend and we had no bill of sale. We still completed the transfer of ownership without the bill of sale - we have just both signed the form.
              If we have to nail on talent, it's not talent.
              Founder, Higher Standards Leather Care Addicts Anonymous

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Muggle Mom View Post
                I recently sold a horse on payments - 50% down and 50% in 6 months. Without my knowledge, the buyer changed the horse's name and ownership with USEF. I understood that ownership couldn't be transferred without a bill of sale showing payment in full, which won't be until Oct. 2012. This is the only horse I've ever owned or sold. Am I right to be upset?
                USEF doesn't require a bill of sale, actually. Did your agent sign the transfer on your behalf, perhaps?

                If you have a contract which details the terms of the sale but not when the transfer takes place, I'd say there is some grey area here. The transfer certainly simplifies things from a showing standpoint for the new owners; absent that change, you would have to sign their entries, after all. Do you want to do that?

                I can understand why you are upset but would encourage you to take a deep breath here and think about what will really serve you best in this situation. As long as your contract is correctly written, allowing the new owner to put the horse in their name for USEF purposes is probably not that big of a deal.
                **********
                We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                -PaulaEdwina

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Lucassb View Post
                  USEF doesn't require a bill of sale, actually. Did your agent sign the transfer on your behalf, perhaps?

                  If you have a contract which details the terms of the sale but not when the transfer takes place, I'd say there is some grey area here. The transfer certainly simplifies things from a showing standpoint for the new owners; absent that change, you would have to sign their entries, after all. Do you want to do that?

                  I can understand why you are upset but would encourage you to take a deep breath here and think about what will really serve you best in this situation. As long as your contract is correctly written, allowing the new owner to put the horse in their name for USEF purposes is probably not that big of a deal.
                  The transfer form requires either the prior owner signature or a copy of the bill of sale.
                  Agent signature have not been permitted for at least 5 years.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    When you release a horse before it is paid for you are taking risks. There is often a bit of desperation on both ends. What you are experiencing is not atypical under the circumstances. Next time you will either request payment in full before releasing a horse, or you will get an agreement that the horse will not be registered with USEF until it is paid in full. But good luck getting USEF to get off its butt. Last time I bought a horse that was a life member, I changed the name and did a transfer. I used a BOS. I did it thru the horse show secretary. The good ones know how to walk you through. I wouldn't sweat it, as long as they keep paying you. If you want to be nasty, you can them to pay the balance now or you will contact USEF. And yes, the whole "signature" thing at shows is a PITA. One reason you might want them to have the horse showing in the new owner's name is that it releases you from liability from, say, drug testing, injury to others, etc. I, for one, believe in getting the horse out of may name once it is no longer under my physical control.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by S A McKee View Post
                      The transfer form requires either the prior owner signature or a copy of the bill of sale.
                      Agent signature have not been permitted for at least 5 years.
                      Actually you can do an affidavit where a bill of sale is not available... although the USEF only grants the transfer if they find the explanation reasonable. In the type of situation the OP describes, for example, the buyer could send a copy of the (one) cancelled check as "proof" that they had purchased the horse. (NOT saying this is what happened, just that it's the kind of thing that could happen.)

                      http://www.usef.org/documents/member...nershipAff.pdf
                      **********
                      We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                      -PaulaEdwina

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well if they offered a sworn affidavit they would be perjuring themselves if the horse was in fact not theirs.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Atlas Shrugged View Post
                          Well if they offered a sworn affidavit they would be perjuring themselves if the horse was in fact not theirs.

                          But they have purchased the horse (even though payments are being made). Unless, the contract says otherwise, the horse is theirs just like anything else purchased on payments. Key word "purchased"'

                          Op, usef does not prove ownership. They specifically say that on the transfer form. Horses are transferred into other peoples names all the time for logistical or finacial reasons. Maybe this person wants to show in the a/o's?? Regardless, they are excited about their new horse and after signatures are done and first payment is made, he is theirs. Only after a default and you use the law to regain ownership will he ever be yours again (I know, tough to let them go!) the fact that they are using you as credit doesn't make you his owner or part owner. It make you a cash lender; what they owe you is cash.

                          I understand that you thought the horse would show under your name, but in my opinion that is a huge risk to you!! They have done you a favor by assuming all liability for a horse they own.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Not sure what paperwork you did exchange with the buyer. In many cases I've dealt with, they got the horse and the seller got a piece of paper saying they owe the seller money. The horse is collateral for the debt. Much like in a mortgage. You may owe the bank a bunch of money, but you still listed as the owner for of the house and are responsible for the bills and upkeep. Again, in these cases, ownership transferred immediately. The new owner responsible for all bills, insurance etc and the seller owned a piece of paper that entitles them to money. In fact, in one contested arrangement that I know of along these lines, a lawyer called in looked at the simple promissory note that was done and deemed that the seller was entitled to cash based on the note, but had no say in decisions related to the horses training, location, or care.

                            All of this depends on the structure and specific arrangements in your paperwork. Unless you specifically specified that ownership transferred only at final payment, you may not have a leg to stand on.

                            I'm not trying to be difficult, but I'm not sure what your concern is. You sold the horse, even if the final payment has not yet been made. USEF ownership records have no legal standing and can't be used to invalidate your claim to the outstanding balance. I think this really is a non-issue. Unless there was specific language in your agreement saying that ownership did not transfer until final payment, I think the new owner has every right to transfer ownership into their name. Are you going to be available at every horse show or other event to sign the entry form as the owner? Do you want to be responsible if they do something that puts you on the hook for censure as the owner of the horse? Are you willing from a liability perspective, to be responsible if the horse injures someone while in their care? It is in YOUR BEST INTEREST if your agreement considers the horse theirs once the horse is out of your care!!!!!!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I had a similar situation with a horse I let someone use. The horse had had an injury and could not jump 3"6" anymore. I was showing my other horses in the AO's. Without my knowledge they changed his name and ownership - leased him to a third party. After two years of legal expenses and a bad trailer accident where the horse was injured - I lost track of him. I was never able to find him again. The USEF (then AHSA) never would take any proactive steps to help recover the horse even though he could be positively identified from his previous injury.
                              I hope you have everything in WRITING.
                              http://STA551.com
                              845-363-1875

                              Comment

                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                So I called USEF ...

                                I anonymously contacted USEF and the Director of Horse Services said that they should not have transferred ownership with our sales contract because there were payment terms that had not yet been satisfied. He said this was a mistake on their part and they would be happy to rescind the transfer. He said that the clerks "often don't read a bill of sale, but they should." He said the proper way to do a USEF transfer of ownership when the horse has not yet been paid for is to get a letter from the seller agreeing to the transfer, despite the fact that full payment has not been made.

                                The reason I'm concerned is that I wouldn't want hassles proving I'm the rightful owner to USEF if the purchaser defaults and I have to retake possession of the horse. I view this similar to a car title - the lien holder is listed on the title and on the insurance until the lien is satisfied to protect the lender's interests.

                                Honestly, the possibility of default is pretty remote in this case and I'm sure USEF status would be the least of my problems if it happened.

                                Letting go of this horse is not an issue for me and she is in a very good situation. I will leave things as they are with USEF, but I will submit the letter citing the debt. I guess I'm old fashioned in thinking that you don't own something until you pay for it.

                                Thanks to everyone for your advice and for helping me keep this in perspective.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by STA View Post
                                  I had a similar situation with a horse I let someone use. The horse had had an injury and could not jump 3"6" anymore. I was showing my other horses in the AO's. Without my knowledge they changed his name and ownership - leased him to a third party. After two years of legal expenses and a bad trailer accident where the horse was injured - I lost track of him. I was never able to find him again. The USEF (then AHSA) never would take any proactive steps to help recover the horse even though he could be positively identified from his previous injury.
                                  I hope you have everything in WRITING.
                                  I'm really sorry this happened to you - what a nightmare! I do have everything in writing, but getting USEF to read it is another matter.

                                  Thanks for sharing your experience. It's often hard to know who to trust or count on in the horse world!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    It isn't a bad idea to hire an equine lawyer in the future. We've seen it all.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Muggle Mom View Post
                                      I anonymously contacted USEF and the Director of Horse Services said that they should not have transferred ownership with our sales contract because there were payment terms that had not yet been satisfied. He said this was a mistake on their part and they would be happy to rescind the transfer. He said that the clerks "often don't read a bill of sale, but they should." He said the proper way to do a USEF transfer of ownership when the horse has not yet been paid for is to get a letter from the seller agreeing to the transfer, despite the fact that full payment has not been made.

                                      The reason I'm concerned is that I wouldn't want hassles proving I'm the rightful owner to USEF if the purchaser defaults and I have to retake possession of the horse. I view this similar to a car title - the lien holder is listed on the title and on the insurance until the lien is satisfied to protect the lender's interests.

                                      Honestly, the possibility of default is pretty remote in this case and I'm sure USEF status would be the least of my problems if it happened.

                                      Letting go of this horse is not an issue for me and she is in a very good situation. I will leave things as they are with USEF, but I will submit the letter citing the debt. I guess I'm old fashioned in thinking that you don't own something until you pay for it.

                                      Thanks to everyone for your advice and for helping me keep this in perspective.
                                      So what.
                                      All they have to do is apply for another number with a new name for the horse.
                                      It's really sad that you felt obligated to do this. One of the ideas behind recording transfers is to protect the record of the horse and prevent duplicate numbers.
                                      And you've forced the buyer to either get a new number or you have prevented them from ever showing the horse.
                                      I wonder if they have grounds to vacate the sale as a result of this?

                                      But a question. Would you have been willing to pay all the USEF member and horse fees, sign all entry blanks and take owner responsibility for drug test issues or are you just trying to jam up the buyer?

                                      Oh, if you contacted them in an anonymous manner how did they kn0w which horse to cancel the transfer on?
                                      Something is wrong with this 'story'.

                                      Comment

                                      • Original Poster

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by S A McKee View Post
                                        So what.
                                        All they have to do is apply for another number with a new name for the horse.
                                        It's really sad that you felt obligated to do this. One of the ideas behind recording transfers is to protect the record of the horse and prevent duplicate numbers.
                                        And you've forced the buyer to either get a new number or you have prevented them from ever showing the horse.
                                        I wonder if they have grounds to vacate the sale as a result of this?

                                        But a question. Would you have been willing to pay all the USEF member and horse fees, sign all entry blanks and take owner responsibility for drug test issues or are you just trying to jam up the buyer?

                                        Oh, if you contacted them in an anonymous manner how did they kn0w which horse to cancel the transfer on?
                                        Something is wrong with this 'story'.
                                        I contacted USEF anonymously and asked for the protocol for this particular issue. As I stated in my previous post, I haven't rescinded the transfer and have no intention to do so. I do want USEF to acknowledge that money is owed on the horse and that I have the right to have USEF records changed back in the event that the buyer doesn't pay off the horse within the terms of the contract.

                                        To answer your questions, I paid for the horse's lifetime recording when I purchased the horse. I purposely renewed my USEF membership fees so that they could show the horse if they wanted. We had already agreed that I would sign the entry blanks if they wanted to show the horse. Considering the classes they would be showing the horse in, it's not at all likely that she would be tested, and I don't have any reason to believe she wouldn't pass.

                                        I think the purchaser did this because the daughter didn't like the name of the horse, and I really don't care what they call her. Why should they care if USEF has record that they still owe money on the horse?

                                        If this causes a little inconvenience for the purchaser, so what? It's little price to pay for a six-month interest-free loan.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X