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Curious: thoughts on instituting ride times

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  • #41
    Originally posted by caffeinated View Post
    It's great to have a trainer help you analyze your ride, or plan it. But one would think that if a rider is capable of showing, they don't *need* the trainer ringside in order to go. I love the idea of a posted order of go and time limits on waiting. Perhaps then something trainers can teach at home is the ability to independently analyze a course, and then independently critique ones own ride.

    The whole "I can't go because my trainer is on the other side of the show grounds" thing just seems weird to me. If trainers were doing a good job training, wouldn't their students be able to handle two minutes in the ring without them, and know basically what to do and how to describe what went wrong? No? Am I living in Unicorn and Fairy world?

    I think the fallacy in your post is the assumption that it is in fact a *need* and not just a want. Sure, there is the nervous nellie that "needs" their hand held, but those are the exceptions not the rule. Part of showing is wanting to improve every round if you can, so IMO it is more a function of *wanting* the trainer there to help them fine-tune so that they can talk about what the trainer saw while the rider still remembers what it felt like! If the trainer didn't see it, it is going to be much harder to help you refine or fix it. Of course they can go around without the trainer there ringside, but with what you pay to show these days, you really want to maximize the experience.

    At the A shows I went to, the order of go generally worked. If shows would hold people's feet to the fire a little bit -- using a rule of reason of course -- it would likely change the behavior of some of the foot-draggers. But, so long as there are multi-ring shows, I think that ride times would be a challenge and are unlikley to be attempted. There's plenty of room for improvement without having ride times, though - even just some little things would make a difference.

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    • #42
      I am 100% all for ride times. They are great at eventing shows. One way they could do it is to give a list of times for each class and let the riders or trainers sign up for the times they want. If you arent there for your time, you can go last.
      "To do something that you feel in your heart that's great, you need to make a lot of mistakes. Anything that is successful is a series of mistakes." -B.J. Armstrong

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      • #43
        At Morgan shows (in the hunter and jumper divisions), there is a posted order of go, and it is enforced. You're not there, too bad.

        I do really like the idea of an enforced posted order of go, set up much like Renn mentioned. Yes, I enjoy just "hanging out" at the shows, but if I *know* approximately when I'm riding, I then know how much time I have to go watch other classes, just hang out with my horsey, etc. I feel less rushed, and I don't get frustrated with the "hurry up and wait." I don't need a "ride time" - just a general idea.
        If we have to nail on talent, it's not talent.
        Founder, Higher Standards Leather Care Addicts Anonymous

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        • #44
          I'd be all about it. I can get into the ring just fine by myself, though I like having my trainer there - but more over, I'm sick to death of getting to a show at 1 p.m. and having the ring held up so many times that I don't show til 9 p.m.
          ---
          They're small hearts.

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          • #45
            Ride times are a good idea if the show management sticks to their own protocol. I hate how some shows will hold gates forever....especially if its for a BNT.

            The show (a series of five shows) we're going to this weekend allows riders to sign up for a rotation of four riders. During your rotation, you and the three other riders in your rotation do your warm up and three OF classes. Once everyone has completed their four classes, the next rotation begins. They call out X number of trips until rotation X begins, so riders in the next rotation can get ready and come to the ring. They will not hold the in-gates longer than 2 minutes, or that rider is bumped to the last rotation. Before the hack, they'll call out 10-12 trips before the hack.

            Since the classes are large (20-40 horses), it makes it so nice because there is no waiting ringside. I wish all large shows employeed this process!

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            • #46
              Originally posted by JackMallory View Post
              I've never understood why a rider requires their trainer in order to go into the ring. Or perhaps I should rephrase that...I don't understand why a trainer feels they must be standing at the ingate yelling instructions to their riders as they go.
              And this is why I event (at a very low level, but still) Not only do trainers NOT do that, but if they do, the rider is eliminated (at least on X/C and in dressage, not sure about S/J). Even in warm-ups, most people don't have a trainer right there (and there is a misbegotten tendency to believe that if one needs a trainer in warm-up, one shouldn't be competing.) So the rider had d*** well be ready to compete on his or her own.

              I personally find it scary that a rider would refuse to go into the ring if their trainer was not right there to coach them. Suggests that the rider is overfaced, or at least thinks s/he is.
              You have to have experiences to gain experience.

              1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

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              • #47
                I would be 110% in favor of having ride times. I've been doing more eventing than hunters and jumpers in the last few years, but I would definately do more h/j shows if they were more organized and I could get some idea of when I would be riding and would get back home. Last year, I was at a (very well run, but also very very well attended that particular day) C rated show... it was 7pm before my hunter division was over. I had been there since noon, it was a looong day. At Garden State it took SIX hours to run my friend's division (some variety of 3-3'3 jumpers) and we were standing at the ring for most of it. Ugh.

                Horse trials and dressage shows are so much easier. Yep, you have to pre-enter. Nope, you can't scratch and add a million times. But you do get to plan exactly when you need to get tacked, get on, you ride at your assigned time, get off, and you and your horse can relax until your next time. You often get home at a reasonable hour, or at least you can plan when you might get home. So much nicer IMO.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by Hunter/JumperMom View Post
                  unfortunately, ride times would not work, rails down would cause all the times to be off.
                  I don't think anyone who events expects the ride time schedule to go exactly as planned... Stuff happens, rails come down, riders fall off (my very first X/C ride was late by 30 minutes because of this), horses have tantrums during dressage, etc. But it does give one a good idea of when to be ready, and competitors talk amongst themselves all day, so one knows if things are running late or early.
                  You have to have experiences to gain experience.

                  1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by quietann View Post
                    I personally find it scary that a rider would refuse to go into the ring if their trainer was not right there to coach them. Suggests that the rider is overfaced, or at least thinks s/he is.
                    As Madison already stated, generally wanting to wait for a trainer has nothing to do with fear or over facing. I want my trainer ringside because the whole point of hunters is to put in the best round possible and there are areas of improvement that can be seen better than they can be felt. I want each of my rounds to be better than the one before it.

                    If I rode in a discipline where the point was to just make it around, doesn't matter how it looks, then I would more agreeable to competing without the trainer ringside.
                    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
                    Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

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                    • #50
                      I would be all for posted ride times, or at a minimum posted time for a class/ division and an order of go with strict adherence to that order as I think Madeline described. For me, I don't need my trainer present immediately before the class to tell me how to rider the trip, we've already discussed that earlier. I usually watch the other rides go and make a plan, then review with the trainer before hand- there is very little last minute. I've used this approach with a couple of trainers, and it works for me. I can never hear a word anyone says while I am on course, so no sideline coaching help for me.

                      For my purposes, the value of having my the coach present for a hunter/ eq course is to get feedback. Maybe if we got judge's feedback like dressage tests, people wouldn't feel so dependent on getting post course feedback from their trainers. I also think the prevalence of adding/ scratching is annoying, but pre-entering to hunter shows could be made a lot more convenient. I think there is some sort of on line pre-entering system for recognized eventing that I think is a great idea. I don't know the details, but it might be a good idea. Would probably also save on the office work, because then they won't need as many people to read the paper entries and type in the information.

                      Comment


                      • #51
                        Thoughts on Instituting Riding Times

                        I would support such a move 100%. I am old enough to remember such structure, even at large 'A' shows. Of course there is a learning curve and an adjustment period that would be required by riders/trainers etc. but the results would be well worth it and yes it could work, with a little (ok a lot of co-operation by riders/trainers). In Canada this topic has been the subject of discussion on/again, off/again over quite a few years. In the end, unfortunately, nothing has been done. From my perspective, apparently many of the BNTs are all dead set against the implementation of such rules and regulations and have certainly made their opinions very clear to those who operate the large 'A' rated shows. Yet again, the wishes of a distinct minority run counter to both the majority of hunter competitors as well as the overall improvement of horse shows. Many/most people that operate large, rated shows, are constantly looking to upgrade/improve (facilities, etc.), I just wish this would be a consideration.

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                        • #52
                          I have no problem with riders that want their trainers ringside. I understand they are paying for that service. HOWEVER, that does not give you the right to hold up the show for everyone else. As your competitor, I could give a rat's behind whether or not your trainer was there in time for your trip. I do however expect the show to run accordingly and as close to schedule as it can. It isn't fair to anyone, human or horse, to hold up the show.

                          I don't think ride times are necessary as even they change in dressage and eventing, but an enforced order of go should do the trick and keep things running smoothly. If a trainer is taking so many students and horses they can't keep up, then they shouldn't charge a training fee or should hire some assistants.

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                          • #53
                            I would absolutely love having ride times! I used to run end gate at a local show series and the bane of my existence was waiting for people to get their rears up to my ring. They clearly paid no mind to whether or not I had told them 58493292 times that I was holding the ring for them and they needed to come to the ring with their student/horse as soon as they could. I had one judge complain about how I ran my ring in the two years I did it and I will tell you to this day - I would have put a horse in the ring if I had one around! But no one bothered to show up! Had I had ride times, at least the offending riders and trainers wouldn't have had an excuse not to show up - they would have known full well that they were supposed to be in the ring at X o'clock.

                            Of course, I also understand how this would be hard to enforce in the hunters with all the adds/scratches. The jumpers, however, really have no good reason not to at least take a stab at establishing ride times - adds and scratches tend to be fairly minimal. Most Classics have a posted order and it usually works out well, I can't imagine why they don't do that with all classes.
                            http://www.chronicleofmyhorse.com/profile/Ashley26

                            "You keep one leg on one side, the other leg on the other side, and your mind in the middle." -- Henry Taylor, "Riding Lesson"

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                            • #54
                              Originally posted by ponyjumper4 View Post
                              I have no problem with riders that want their trainers ringside. I understand they are paying for that service. HOWEVER, that does not give you the right to hold up the show for everyone else. As your competitor, I could give a rat's behind whether or not your trainer was there in time for your trip. I do however expect the show to run accordingly and as close to schedule as it can. It isn't fair to anyone, human or horse, to hold up the show.
                              That is pretty much exactly what I think. A show is a show first and a training opportunity second. Keeping things running smoothly for *everyone* is more important than a trainer being there for *one* rider.
                              You have to have experiences to gain experience.

                              1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Originally posted by RockinHorse View Post
                                As Madison already stated, generally wanting to wait for a trainer has nothing to do with fear or over facing. I want my trainer ringside because the whole point of hunters is to put in the best round possible and there are areas of improvement that can be seen better than they can be felt. I want each of my rounds to be better than the one before it.

                                If I rode in a discipline where the point was to just make it around, doesn't matter how it looks, then I would more agreeable to competing without the trainer ringside.

                                Ride times have little to do with the trainer being there versus not being there. There are MANY riders in Eventing who have their trainer there for the warm up for each of the phases. My trainer often coaches 10+ students at various levels. We all have different times of go and different times we need to be in warm up. She rarely misses someone's ride do to needing to be somewhere else. Yeah it happens, but I wouldn't say it happens often. Trainer can be there at your side when you have assigned ride times. They are able to plan out their schedule days in advance because they know each riders times in advance.

                                BTW, just because one rides in a discipline where "you just have to make it around" doesn't mean everyone competing has that mentality. I absolutely want to know what I need to do to improve my round or dressage ride every single time whether it counts or not. I want my trainer there .
                                The whole point of ANY show or competition is to put in the best ride possible.

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                                • #56
                                  I hope I don't get totally flamed for this but....having my trainer at the ring with me to watch and help me analyze my ride is almost the entire purpose of going to the horse show. It's not that I can't jump the course without them telling me what to do, of course I can. But even the Olympic riders (and all the other athletes in different sports) have a coach with them who watches them perform. What is the point of all the training, time, blood, sweat and tears with someone and then you don't get to see them perform because you had to help another customer at the other end of the showgrounds who is forced to go at the same time? In my opinion, if you are a serious competitor then it will be important to you to have a coach there when you walk into the ring.

                                  That being said, when I've had a posted order for a class, the back gate people have always helped if there is a conflict. They'll just ask the trainer below to move up, or ask if I can go at the top of the order, etc. Usually everyone tries to help each other out.

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                                  • #57
                                    I am still confused.... What can you learn from having a trainer watch you at a show that you cannot learn from having him/her watching you at home?
                                    You have to have experiences to gain experience.

                                    1998 Morgan mare Mythic Feronia "More Valley Girl Than Girl Scout!"

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by quietann View Post
                                      I am still confused.... What can you learn from having a trainer watch you at a show that you cannot learn from having him/her watching you at home?
                                      quietann, do you or have you ever shown hunters? It is hard for me to imagine anyone who has asking this question. A show is just, well, different - it is where you are supposed to put all of the pieces together, make it as good as it can possibly be, and do it under pressure. Sure, you aren't (or shouldn't be!) showing at a level that you aren't solidly doing at home, but shows often expose little things that you can improve. And, your horse may act differently at the show, and you certainly can't replicate that at home, so you can learn how to improve on finessing those issues as well. Plus, you want each round a little better than the first, so you can learn what you should immediately improve on the course at hand for when you go back in for your next round. I've taken my horse to show without my trainer, but there is absolutely no question that I got a lot more out of the experience at the ones where my trainer was there and watched my rounds.

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                                      • #59
                                        Originally posted by quietann View Post
                                        I am still confused.... What can you learn from having a trainer watch you at a show that you cannot learn from having him/her watching you at home?
                                        I don't know about you but my nerves, stress and desire to perform at my very best is higher when I'm at a show. Any show. And I event.

                                        Yes I prepare at home but it still doesn't replicate everything that goes on at an event. I haven't been riding long enough to be able to analyze every mistake during a round fences on my own. When I'm riding I prefer another set of eyes to tell me what went wrong and what went WELL. I also tend to dwell on the negative and my trainer helps put in perspective a round with one or two flaws that might seem awful to me as not quite so bad. In eventing the trainer can't say boo from the sidelines in ANY of the 3 phases. However, its the information she provides AFTER the ride that can be insightful and it also helps to prepare us for what I need to work on at our next lesson.

                                        hope that helps.

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          Originally posted by Madison View Post
                                          quietann, do you or have you ever shown hunters? It is hard for me to imagine anyone who has asking this question. .
                                          I dont' think it has anything to do with showing the hunters specifically. There are riders that want feedback and the knowledge neccessary to improve in every discipline and there are riders who just go and wing it with no training OR trainer present in every discipline. Neither is unique to the hunters so no need to be condescending.

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