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Letter of vs. Intent of the rules...

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  • Letter of vs. Intent of the rules...

    I know the governing body tries to make rules that work for everyone, but how many of you wish they would simplify the rules and get more along the lines of Intent of the rule instead of letter of the rule.

    Here's an example of the piss poor ammy rules.

    1. Person works at a barn mucking stalls, feeding, tacking up, etc. Hoping to learn all they can. They are asked by a boarder that is going on vacation if they will HACK their horse for the week they are gone. Not training, not even jumping. But by the letter of the law, if they do, they are a professional.

    2. Person is independently wealthy, imports 10 or more very nice horses from Europe each year. Sells all at generous profit, out of their own facility, without a trainer in house. THIS is an AMMY...



    Like others have mentioned in the "Duct Tape Thread" if you cover the name of your farm and trainer on your rig and stall setup. Your assistant can take YOUR clients to shows, business as usual. Absolutely NO loss of business to suspended person. So why bother even suspending someone with no "REAL" teeth in the punishment.
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  • #2
    Isn't person 1 already a pro from working at the barn? Unless you mean they're not getting paid in which case riding a boarder's horse would not make them an ammy either (again, unless they are receiving some sort of compensation.)
    Last edited by Rel6; Mar. 8, 2012, 12:18 AM. Reason: spelling, again

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    • #3
      As long as person #1 doesn't swing a leg over any horse that doesn't belong to them, they are not a professional. You can still be an amateur and clean stalls, tack up, etc for money. They cannot teach lessons or ride a barn client's horse.

      Comment


      • #4
        I am a trainer, daughter is an avid horsewoman that as a junior, rode everything she could. Once she aged out, she was limited to riding only her horse or one of my own to preserve her amateur status. She is now married and living out of town,doesn't work in the horse business at all. Comes once a week to rider her own horse and if that horse is out for some reason, she can't ride anything and that seems unfair to someone who is a true ammy that has the mis/fortune to be a trainer's kid and so much loves to ride.
        I understand the need for strong ammy rules but sometimes they seem a bit excessive!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by copper1 View Post
          I am a trainer, daughter is an avid horsewoman that as a junior, rode everything she could. Once she aged out, she was limited to riding only her horse or one of my own to preserve her amateur status. She is now married and living out of town,doesn't work in the horse business at all. Comes once a week to rider her own horse and if that horse is out for some reason, she can't ride anything and that seems unfair to someone who is a true ammy that has the mis/fortune to be a trainer's kid and so much loves to ride.
          I understand the need for strong ammy rules but sometimes they seem a bit excessive!

          If she lives out of town and is only riding once I week, I would guess she is not showing. If this is the case, why would she even worry about ammy status at this point?
          Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
          Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

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          • #6
            Forgive me if I'm not getting it, but I've always thought that you could ride other horses as long as you aren't paid or compensated for it? You couldnt take money, gifts, etc for teaching or riding.


            And as bad as it sounds, unless you are very actively teaching lessons at a large barn, schooling clients at shows, and broadcasting how much money you get paid for these activities most people won't know what you do at home. USEF isn't coming by to pro checks and analyzing your bank statements and visiting your barn. Just saying... There are a lot of people who get around it. Bad for ammy's who are riding against ppl who should be technically pros and not so bad for ammy's who may get extra rides but aren't really pro worthy.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by kmwines01 View Post
              Forgive me if I'm not getting it, but I've always thought that you could ride other horses as long as you aren't paid or compensated for it? You couldnt take money, gifts, etc for teaching or riding. (snip)
              Yes, you can ride other owners' horses and retain your amateur status as long as you are not getting paid in any capacity by the barn that receives money for boarding/training that horse. The fact that the individual in the first example is employed as a groom (mucking, feeding, tacking up etc) is the reason she cannot ride a boarder's horse without technically losing her amateur status.

              Unfortunately, the rule was crafted this way because there were enough people who claimed that they were being paid as bookkeepers, grooms etc to retain their amateur status, but who actually spent their days riding and teaching. Thus, the rule states you cannot be paid for ANY such activity *and* ride horses that do not belong to you that your employer is paid to board/train.

              That said, a person who grooms, or keeps the books etc CAN ride any horses they like at any other barn without harming their status.
              **********
              We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
              -PaulaEdwina

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              • #8
                "Accepts remuneration for employment in other capacity (e.g., secretary, bookkeeper, veterinarian, groom, farrier) and gives instruction, rides, drives, shows, trains or schools horses, other than horses actually owned or leased by him/her, when his/her employer or a member of the family of said employer or a corporation which a member of his/her family controls, owns, boards or trains said horses"

                The groom would be a pro if she/he rides the clients horse.
                This topic,and ths rule in particular have been covered in a number of recent threads.
                Perhaps some of you might want to read the rule? GR1306

                Riding ability is not a definition of Amateur or Pro.
                The person who manges her barn without a trainer is simply a good rider/manager or very lucky.No rule violation there.

                USEF can ask for bank statements and financial records for Pros that are suspended to ensure that the suspended trainer is not receiving the benefit of income from showing clients while suspended.

                If your Amateur status is questioned USEF can ask for financial records to prove your claim that you are an Amateur. Also, if you are protested for Amateur status involving an 'owner' situation they can ask for proof of ownership of the horse.

                "After an investigation has been initiated, and upon request by the Federation and to the satisfaction of the Federation, an Amateur shall submit verifiable proof of Amateur status, including proof of ownership for any horse(s) the Amateur is competing in classes restricted to Amateur Owners.
                If the Federation deems such proof insufficient, then the Federation may initiate proceedings in accordance with Chapter 6, Violations."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by grandprixjump View Post
                  I know the governing body tries to make rules that work for everyone, but how many of you wish they would simplify the rules and get more along the lines of Intent of the rule instead of letter of the rule.

                  Here's an example of the piss poor ammy rules.

                  (snip)

                  2. Person is independently wealthy, imports 10 or more very nice horses from Europe each year. Sells all at generous profit, out of their own facility, without a trainer in house. THIS is an AMMY...
                  I dunno... this scenario doesn't bother me. Why shouldn't this person be an ammy? Because they are good enough to make up/show/sell horses at a profit?

                  I am far from wealthy (understatement) but I have been fortunate to have sold a couple of nice investment horses along the way, and the profits have supported my own (modest) personal showing expenses. I know quite a few other amateurs who likewise support or at least somewhat offset their expenses by bringing along horses to sell. Most, like me, have non-horsey full time jobs, and ride, however seriously, for fun. Not pros in any sense of the word.
                  **********
                  We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                  -PaulaEdwina

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by kmwines01 View Post
                    And as bad as it sounds, unless you are very actively teaching lessons at a large barn, schooling clients at shows, and broadcasting how much money you get paid for these activities most people won't know what you do at home. USEF isn't coming by to pro checks and analyzing your bank statements and visiting your barn.
                    And the feeling that some people have that they can pick and choose what parts of rules apply to us/them and ignore the rest is why the ammy rule is so difficult now.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks for the clarifications lucassb and McKee. I was on my phone so couldn't easily look up the rules. And only ever shown locally as junior and just now getting back into showing as an adult so have never had to worry about my status so never read the rule fully.

                      McKee: are there any stats on or do you know of people who's amateur status has been investigated? That seems like an intense process for USEF to undertake so I'd be interested in how often it's done.

                      I've never shown rated shows so have never had to deal with USEF.

                      Also, is it cross disciplinary? If you're paid to exercise racehorses does that take away your amateur status under USEF? I would assume if it in another discipline that follows USEF then it would make you a pro but for activities outside of those disciplines.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by kmwines01 View Post
                        Also, is it cross disciplinary? If you're paid to exercise racehorses does that take away your amateur status under USEF? I would assume if it in another discipline that follows USEF then it would make you a pro but for activities outside of those disciplines.
                        Yes.
                        I think Julie Krone ran into this trying to show in the jumpers as an ammy.

                        USEF was like, "Nope."
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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lucassb View Post
                          Unfortunately, the rule was crafted this way because there were enough people who claimed that they were being paid as bookkeepers, grooms etc to retain their amateur status, but who actually spent their days riding and teaching. Thus, the rule states you cannot be paid for ANY such activity *and* ride horses that do not belong to you that your employer is paid to board/train.
                          But the intention of the ammy rules and D&M rules IS clear!

                          Amateurs:

                          To keep those who have the opportunity to learn to ride circles around others-- by virtue of their profession-- out of that competition.

                          The rules aren't meant to related to how well you ride, but how much opportunity you had to become great. If your "job" was to ride all day every day, and you did that on your parents' nickel as a junior or on the income from your SO or trust fund, no problem.

                          I think English World might want to look at some of the models that Western World has tried in terms of sorting horses and riders by the points or kinds of awards they have won. It still encourages people to pour a lot of time and money in showing (one of the desired effects of the ammy rule), but it also keeps "like with like" in terms of sporting contests.

                          D&M rules:

                          1) Don't mask pain so that the semi-crippled animal is completely crippled by showing.

                          2) Don't use drugs to mask a training problem or a scared horse in a sport that involves teaching horses to calmly do a job.

                          The horse desired in the hunter ring is different than the "just make him more or less controllable" horse needed in the jumper ring. But the intention is the same.

                          What is unclear?
                          The armchair saddler
                          Politically Pro-Cat

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I am a paid groom for my trainer and I only ride my horse. It is frustrating when my horse is laid up that I cannot ride any other horse that is in his program, but that is the way it is. When we are at shows with a lot of horses and they need to stretch their legs-guess who is the only one on the ground hand walking the horse while the kids are up on any of the other horses enjoying a relaxing ride.

                            I would love to "catch ride" for other trainers for free, but, sometimes I can't ride my way out of a paper bag so why would they want me to ride, and I am so busy working that I probably couldn't do it anyway.

                            I wish it was different, but I respect the rules and would really be out of place riding against the pro's!!!!! Sometimes I wish they had an out gate at the far end of the arena at shows so that I wouldn't have to face my trainer coming out of the ring.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by kmwines01 View Post
                              McKee: are there any stats on or do you know of people who's amateur status has been investigated? That seems like an intense process for USEF to undertake so I'd be interested in how often it's done.

                              Also, is it cross disciplinary? If you're paid to exercise racehorses does that take away your amateur status under USEF? I would assume if it in another discipline that follows USEF then it would make you a pro but for activities outside of those disciplines.
                              Read the monthly report of the hearing committee
                              Almost every month there is a report of a fake 'Amateur'.
                              USEF is doing a much better job on enforcement.
                              The usual penalty seems to be a year as a non Amateur before the violator can apply for Ammie Status.

                              Also, the trainers who condone Amateur rule violations ( employ'Amateurs' to teach or show for the trainer's benefit)) are also being fined or even serving a short vacation.

                              Yes, it is cross disciplines.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by grandprixjump View Post
                                2. Person is independently wealthy, imports 10 or more very nice horses from Europe each year. Sells all at generous profit, out of their own facility, without a trainer in house. THIS is an AMMY....
                                I hate to disappoint you, but that is EXACTLY who the amateur rules were originally written for.

                                When the amateur division started, there were VERY FEW amateurs who worked outside the home.
                                Janet

                                chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  The rules aren't meant to related to how well you ride, but how much opportunity you had to become great. If your "job" was to ride all day every day, and you did that on your parents' nickel as a junior or on the income from your SO or trust fund, no problem
                                  Nope, they are not meant to address that (how much time you have to ride) either.

                                  They are meant to address whether or not you are getting PAID (directly or indirectly) for riding or teaching.
                                  Janet

                                  chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                    But the intention of the ammy rules and D&M rules IS clear!

                                    The rules aren't meant to related to how well you ride, but how much opportunity you had to become great. If your "job" was to ride all day every day, and you did that on your parents' nickel as a junior or on the income from your SO or trust fund, no problem.
                                    The amount of time you have to ride has nothing to do with whether you're an amateur. It's whether you're paid or not - which is not necessarily "opportunity to become great."

                                    I "work" at a barn exercising horses and ponies. I get paid nothing, given nothing, etc. Actually, I spend a decent amount of money on gas just to get there! But I am not a pro just because I can get out there 5 or 6 days a week and ride 5 or 6 horses.
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                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                      But the intention of the ammy rules and D&M rules IS clear!

                                      Amateurs:

                                      To keep those who have the opportunity to learn to ride circles around others-- by virtue of their profession-- out of that competition.

                                      The rules aren't meant to related to how well you ride, but how much opportunity you had to become great. If your "job" was to ride all day every day, and you did that on your parents' nickel as a junior or on the income from your SO or trust fund, no problem.
                                      Why do you make that statement?
                                      Where in the rules do you find anything about 'opportunity'?
                                      Please re-read the section and explain your position.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        A bit off track - can anyone one definitely state the purpose of the amateur rules ....

                                        Clearly not intended to create a "level" playing field in a true sense.

                                        For example, the rules clearly allow an amateur to buy and sell horses - even to make their entire living doing so - and remain an amateur. In most cases, someone who made their entire living from a particular sport would be a professional, but not here.

                                        If one works for a barn, one cannot ride any horse except one's own, but one can ride horses from another barn -- ie barns can "swap" grooms for riding and entirely avoid violation of the letter of the law (and entirely violate its spirit)

                                        Juniors are not subject to the rules at all - permitting some juniors to ride multiple horses for the trainer they work for, be paid for catch rides until they age out where miraculously in an instant the same activities make them a pro

                                        Isolating the reason for the amateur rules might help to understand how they are crafted ....

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