• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

The "Duct Tape" over bad deeds: How long will it stick.

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • The "Duct Tape" over bad deeds: How long will it stick.

    I'm a big fan of this rugged stuff.

    But the application of Duct Tape to cover the farm names on the drapes for the farm of a banned trainer is the point at which we need to stop.

    This comes from a couple of posts in the "Banned Trainer" thread. Apparently, this is a solution for a BNT and one exploited by (King) George H. Morris himself. The horses, decorations and staff (all but the named banned individual) can be at the USEF show. Duct tape over the farm's name meets the obligation to "not show for the benefit" of the banned.

    I'll rant on later in the thread.

    But I ask because of H/J's own recent threads about drugging.... about pony trainers cheating (at the only show where people sign sportsmanship pledges)... and in Off Course, a thread about some Big Lick TWH trainer finally, finally nailed by the USDA and others outside the horse world for their long ignored abuses. The duct tape there may have taking half a century to fall off, but it has.

    My point, H/J people, is that if we don't clean this up, someone else will notice the stink and do it for us.

    Your thoughts?
    The armchair saddler
    Politically Pro-Cat

  • #2
    Not to ignite your fire, but if head trainer and another client get caught drugging one horse...but little ammy me has nothing to do with it and my horse is clean...why should me and my horse be shut out from showing too? How does that help the situation?

    Comment


    • #3
      Agree w/ Skip. Why punish any other client of said trainer? Are they supposed to go out and order new tack drapes for 30 days? Sounds like you just want trainer beheaded and never to work again.
      www.midatlanticeq.com
      Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
      November 11-13, 2016

      Comment


      • #4
        If my trainer was ever banned, I couldn't see myself continuing to train with them. Ever.

        Comment


        • #5
          PB, what do you mean banned. Do you mean for life? That has only happened to a handfull of people in the history of the sport.
          www.midatlanticeq.com
          Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
          November 11-13, 2016

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by SkipChange View Post
            Not to ignite your fire, but if head trainer and another client get caught drugging one horse...but little ammy me has nothing to do with it and my horse is clean...why should me and my horse be shut out from showing too? How does that help the situation?
            Originally posted by chunky munky View Post
            Agree w/ Skip. Why punish any other client of said trainer? Are they supposed to go out and order new tack drapes for 30 days? Sounds like you just want trainer beheaded and never to work again.
            I'm not on fiyah yet. But to answer your questions.

            No, I don't want the sumbich beheaded. I do want the punishment to fit the crime. Or I'd settle for the USEF taking a stronger stand.... before someone else does.

            Yes, I think you clients who are paying these guys are enabling them. You can only plead "But I didn't know" so many times. If it's not your horse, I suppose you have a point. You might be the one "straight edge" (and PITA) client in the barn. But if it's your horse caught with the wrong results on the piss test? Someone, somewhere should be watching you hard. (IMO, better you than an outside authority).

            Here's my point about the Duct Tape. How do I explain this to my non-horsey friends I take to a very pretty horse show? "Oh, see, those guys with the fancy set-up and all the blues have their head guy banned this week. The duct tape is satisfying USEF rules."

            That's a problem. It's also a problem that you need to do some really, really bad stuff to earned the "Duct Tape" punishment. You *know* my non-horsey friends will ask next, "Well, what did he do?"

            I really, really don't want to have to explain that no one is required to put up duct tape until a horse dies.
            The armchair saddler
            Politically Pro-Cat

            Comment


            • #7
              Well, actually some people get set down just for having the assistant trainer give the wrong med to the wrong horse, or forgetting to file a drug report, or contamination from a coffee grinder used to grind up pills and not cleaned out well enough. You know most of these folks are not mother rapers and baby stabbers. Some times it can happen from a clerical error. And sometimes it can happen when I clients horse ships in for a show and mommy gave it ace 3 days before to clip its ears, and guess who signed the entry? I am not making this stuff up. These have all happened.
              www.midatlanticeq.com
              Mid-Atlantic Equitation Festival,Scholarships and College Fair
              November 11-13, 2016

              Comment


              • #8
                Not that it'll matter much in this discussion but...not all BNTs are the villians that they're made out to be sometimes on this forum.

                I ride with a BNT and have had multiple horses tested over the years, as have others in the barn, and none of ours have come back with anything positive. Just saying.
                http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
                Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

                Comment

                • Original Poster

                  #9
                  Originally posted by supershorty628 View Post
                  Not that it'll matter much in this discussion but...not all BNTs are the villians that they're made out to be sometimes on this forum.

                  I ride with a BNT and have had multiple horses tested over the years, as have others in the barn, and none of ours have come back with anything positive. Just saying.
                  So what's yer point? The second part of your post does nothing to support the first part.

                  Those who are caught with drugged horses are guilty of that--- no more, no less.
                  The armchair saddler
                  Politically Pro-Cat

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by mvp View Post
                    So what's yer point? The second part of your post does nothing to support the first part.

                    Those who are caught with drugged horses are guilty of that--- no more, no less.
                    I think what Supershorty is trying to say is that there is a huge amount of generalization on COTH as far as BNTs go. When a few get caught, threads start to pop up that generalize and make it sound like all BNTs do the same. I think Supershorty's point was that a few bad apples shouldn't corrupt the rest of the bunch...(and yes, I'm well aware that at this point it seems like there are more than just a few.)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Maybe the trainers who are in the habit of doing something bad enough to get banned should just invest in a different set of curtains without the farm name to use when they're banned.
                      Cowboy up.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by mvp View Post
                        Here's my point about the Duct Tape. How do I explain this to my non-horsey friends I take to a very pretty horse show? "Oh, see, those guys with the fancy set-up and all the blues have their head guy banned this week. The duct tape is satisfying USEF rules."

                        That's a problem. It's also a problem that you need to do some really, really bad stuff to earned the "Duct Tape" punishment. You *know* my non-horsey friends will ask next, "Well, what did he do?"

                        I really, really don't want to have to explain that no one is required to put up duct tape until a horse dies.
                        You can get your non-horsey friends to come to shows?

                        Seriously though, you don't have to "kill horses" to be suspended. A groom can give a medication at a wrong time or a horse can eat from a bucket tainted with residue from another horse's Banamine or whatever. Obviously that innocent scenario doesn't explain all cases, but it does some.

                        What if suspended trainers just couldn't put drapes up? Would that satisfy you? This thread just seems like a petty way to try and make a point.

                        Comment

                        • Original Poster

                          #13
                          Originally posted by allicolls Aefvue Farms Deep South View Post
                          Maybe the trainers who are in the habit of doing something bad enough to get banned should just invest in a different set of curtains without the farm name to use when they're banned.
                          Why not make your dead gramma the nominal head trainer and then let her get banned from time to time?

                          Originally posted by Tha Ridge View Post
                          You can get your non-horsey friends to come to shows?

                          Seriously though, you don't have to "kill horses" to be suspended. A groom can give a medication at a wrong time or a horse can eat from a bucket tainted with residue from another horse's Banamine or whatever. Obviously that innocent scenario doesn't explain all cases, but it does some.

                          What if suspended trainers just couldn't put drapes up? Would that satisfy you? This thread just seems like a petty way to try and make a point.
                          Now I am on fiyah.

                          Putting duct tape over a farm's name as a way to get around the purpose of the banning is also Making A Point. It is a big silver finger to those who do not cheat. And the USEF let's 'em do it.

                          I think banned should mean not being there, not competing, not making that period's worth of money at a horse show. Asking that the USEF to close up this loophole isn't asking for much, right? It's asking their punishment to have some teeth that they intended.

                          Truly, this thread is inspired in part by the "Ruh roh" going on the the Big Lick world right now. It's a PSA: IF we don't police ourselves. If flouting out governing organization's rules becomes SOP here, then someone else is going to come in and stop that shiza for us.
                          The armchair saddler
                          Politically Pro-Cat

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by allicolls Aefvue Farms Deep South View Post
                            Maybe the trainers who are in the habit of doing something bad enough to get banned should just invest in a different set of curtains without the farm name to use when they're banned.
                            *SNORT*
                            Stoneybrook Farm Afton TN

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              one time ban or suspension is an OhShi...

                              It's the barns and trainers that OhShi, happens over and over again, that needs better suspensions. Like a point system according to what happened. points stay on system for 2 years and the more points the longer the suspension.

                              For example a drug mistake = 2 points and a month suspension, but the second time 2 more points, so now they have 4 points and gets minimum 6 weeks or 2 months. When each points infractions are 2 years old the points from that infraction drops off and doesn't count anymore.
                              If someone gets 12 points within the 2 years or whatever is deemed crazy, the ban becomes perminent...
                              " iCOTH " window/bumper stickers. Wood Routed Stall and Farm Signs
                              http://www.bluemooncustomsigns.com

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by SkipChange View Post
                                Not to ignite your fire, but if head trainer and another client get caught drugging one horse...but little ammy me has nothing to do with it and my horse is clean...why should me and my horse be shut out from showing too? How does that help the situation?
                                Because it is a business. You have to go after one's ability to make a profit in order to have effective regulations. The risk of loss of clients based on being banned must be held as the punitive consequences for illegal behavior and/or attempting to "game" horse showing. It must be a level playing field for all.

                                In my own area trainers have had reprimands but "banning" requires a consistent level of disregard for the rules. One or two issues might get you a warning, but to be banned is another issue. Two different behaviors.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                  I'm not on fiyah yet. But to answer your questions.

                                  No, I don't want the sumbich beheaded. I do want the punishment to fit the crime. Or I'd settle for the USEF taking a stronger stand.... before someone else does.

                                  Yes, I think you clients who are paying these guys are enabling them. You can only plead "But I didn't know" so many times. If it's not your horse, I suppose you have a point. You might be the one "straight edge" (and PITA) client in the barn. But if it's your horse caught with the wrong results on the piss test? Someone, somewhere should be watching you hard. (IMO, better you than an outside authority).
                                  If my trainers were engaging in illicit activities (which they aren't) I doubt they would broadcast it to all the clients. "Oh hey, we used illegal drugs on so-and-so's horse just so you know!" So yeah, I'd firmly stick to "I knew nothing about it."

                                  Want them to watch hard? Ok maybe make it mandatory that one of their horses be randomly selected to be drug tested at the next show they attend after their suspension is up. I would increase their fine to make them pay for a a drug test for every horse in their barn at every show they attend for the next 12 months before I banned every horse in the entire barn from competing.

                                  Here's my point about the Duct Tape. How do I explain this to my non-horsey friends I take to a very pretty horse show? "Oh, see, those guys with the fancy set-up and all the blues have their head guy banned this week. The duct tape is satisfying USEF rules."

                                  That's a problem. It's also a problem that you need to do some really, really bad stuff to earned the "Duct Tape" punishment. You *know* my non-horsey friends will ask next, "Well, what did he do?"

                                  I really, really don't want to have to explain that no one is required to put up duct tape until a horse dies.
                                  Are you trying to change these rules to better the sport or to appease your non-horsey friends?

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    So how many of the very BNT's have actually been banned or had a long-term suspension?

                                    I haven't seen that many really big names on the list at all in recent years. For instance I've never seen Beacon Hill, North Run or Heritage Farm trainers on the list and they are certianly big players! Does that mean they are pretty clean, or very careful?

                                    Scott Stewart was the last name I really recognized on the list and he got 1 month for stackin NSAIDS. I'm just curious because I agree that the BNT's get a bad rep when all these topics come up, yet I can't pinpoint an actual episode to back it up. Mind you, all my inside info comes from here anyways

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by Janeway View Post
                                      So how many of the very BNT's have actually been banned or had a long-term suspension?

                                      I haven't seen that many really big names on the list at all in recent years. For instance I've never seen Beacon Hill, North Run or Heritage Farm trainers on the list and they are certianly big players! Does that mean they are pretty clean, or very careful?

                                      Scott Stewart was the last name I really recognized on the list and he got 1 month for stackin NSAIDS. I'm just curious because I agree that the BNT's get a bad rep when all these topics come up, yet I can't pinpoint an actual episode to back it up. Mind you, all my inside info comes from here anyways
                                      Backing it up is difficult with stuff like Carolina Gold and Mag around....since they don't test at present. There are many things that don't test it seems.
                                      I am so glad my surgery is over and I can get back to the barn Wed. cause these drugging threads are depressing me
                                      Last edited by Parrotnutz; Mar. 5, 2012, 07:12 PM. Reason: spelling
                                      Adriane
                                      Happily retired but used to be:
                                      www.ParrotNutz.com

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        First: Atleast in Calif we all pay a drug fee, no one has to pay for their horse to be drug tested-we all pay for that if we show.

                                        Second: Even in our little area we know who the trainers are that like to try and use components other than training, skill, and luck at horse shows because they use those same things at home. These trainers typically controll all feed for their horses in training as well. I'm pretty sure it works the same for BNTs.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X