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At A Loss - To Sell or Not to Sell

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  • At A Loss - To Sell or Not to Sell

    Hello fellow COTHer's,

    I am battling myself with what to do with my 4y/o dutch mare.

    I recently started her over fences and her form is lacking
    I am a pretty serious competitor and I purchased her in hopes that she would be my show horse for hunters.
    Her free jump, then and now are much the same as when I am on.
    She has nice hunter-y knees when she tries but she puts no effort in her hind end nor does she use her head and neck. It is very ... gazelle-like.
    (I will post photos after I have someone take some tonight).


    I have used several gymnastic excercises and varying heights upto 2'3", widths, 'scary' fillers to encourage the 'look down' but with vary little improvement, but lots of honesty from her.

    It has only been two months since she started over fences and I only jump for 10 minutes twice a week. But I should add her flatwork is solid as I have been riding with a dressage coach for the past year and her breeding is .... dressage.


    Should I sell before I get involved in show season this year or should I keep hope that she will figure it out....?


    (Breeding Pacific Star STV- DWB).

    Here are a few photos though I should say they are a bit older.
    http://s1101.photobucket.com/albums/...acific_paloma/


    Thank you all.... this is a very hard decision. I appreciate your thoughts.
    http://dotstreamming.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    Cute mare... but where are the pics of her O/F?

    Comment


    • #3
      What about sending her to a good hunter trainer for a professional opinion/evaluation?

      Comment


      • #4
        Does she have a show record from last season?
        If not, consider how much showing her this year will improve her pricing & saleability vs how much the show season will cost you, especially as you seem to have divergent paths.

        How much hill work does she do? does she really have the muscling & strength for it to be easy for her?
        Have you worked her with a jump trainer or done jump clinics with her or put her into training with a pro for a month or so?

        her flatwork is solid
        I watched the u/s 8 months video, is this failry current or a few months back in her training?

        Comment


        • #5
          Isn't four awfully young for a WB? Also, yeah, pictures are nice but they don't show her jumping...
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          • #6
            Originally posted by BAC View Post
            What about sending her to a good hunter trainer for a professional opinion/evaluation?
            ^
            this

            And perhaps 2'3" isn't enough of a challenge for her? My guy just walks over those - he really doesn't "use" himself until the jumps get more challenging.
            http://fromdressagehorsetocowpony.blogspot.com/

            "I am still under the impression that there is nothing alive quite so beautiful as a thoroughbred horse." -- John Galsworthy

            Comment


            • #7
              Condeming "form" over anything less the 3' where all 4 feet are off the ground at the same time is not fair. Those 2'3" "jumps" are lope overs and they don't have to have any "form" at all.

              But I suspect there are other reasons you really may not like this one as much as you'd hoped so it's fine to sell her with no remorse or second thoughts. She is just not what you wanted overall.

              She cute. Unless she is an idiot, price her appropriately and she should sell pretty well going into the peak show season. somebody will want her if the price is right.

              If you just don't click with one, don't hesitate to move them along. I cheerfully admit to having done that and even almost hating one for no specific reason and hating another for a very good reason. It's OK to just not like one, not adopting a child there or a marriage.
              When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

              The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

              Comment


              • #8
                You just described my mare! Except mine is an OTTB.

                I have the blues about her too. At home she jumps very hollow and gazelle-like. I took her out to another farm with actual 'show' jumps and she jumped like a dream! Have you tried coupling the scary filler at a new facility? Also, 2'3" for a fit horse may just not be enough to illicit a response. She may be one of those horses that isn't phased until the heights go up.

                I plan on keeping mine for a year. Doing the baby greens and then evaluating after the end of the season on whether she is competitive enough to move up to the AAs or if she needs to go be some a pre-children's packer. I hope it's not the later. I heart her.

                Comment


                • #9
                  It's very hard to say without seeing pictures or video. It may be, as others said, that she doesn't need to try very hard over a small jump to care about her shape or it could be that she has no natural style. I will say that if it is the latter, it's probably best to get her moved along before you sink too much sweat and coin into her.

                  I would have her evaluated by a professional who has experience identifying ability in youngsters and take it from there....

                  Good luck - these things are never easy

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by findeight View Post
                    Condeming "form" over anything less the 3' where all 4 feet are off the ground at the same time is not fair. Those 2'3" "jumps" are lope overs and they don't have to have any "form" at all.
                    Maybe not - but there are many horses that have fantastic form over even their first 18" cross rail.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      I have yet to take any decent over fences photos. I hope to get some tonight. (New camera, everything ends up blurry).

                      I thought about sending her to a local coach who used to ride with Ian Miller.
                      This coach turns out lots of A hunters... might be worth a shot but one month's training is $2000. *gulp*. Seems excessive.

                      I have just started taking hunter lessons again... maybe it will help.


                      I did fee-lunge her over a 4'3" fence, cleared it fine but form was the same. I swear she thinks she is a pogo stick.

                      Maybe a change in environment would help.... good suggestion.


                      Her mind is amazing, though lazy. She is very willing.


                      The video there was from June 2011.


                      I hope I got all the questions... thank you all. I appreciate bouncing ideas. It helps to know I have support.
                      http://dotstreamming.blogspot.com/

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Maybe she wants to be a jumper ?

                        She looks like she should be athletic, she might just need some time to learn to use her self.
                        Proud Member of the "Tidy Rabbit Tinfoil Hat Wearers" clique and the "I'm in my 30's and Hope to be a Good Rider Someday" clique

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                        • #13
                          Is the mare just turned 4 or coming 5 this year? 4 is still awfully young but most of them show pretty much what they are by the time they are fully age 5. The ones that start perfect even as babies are out of most folks budget and most don't need a superstar anyway, just a competent Hunter.

                          You could be spinning your wheels trying to make a Hunter or she just needs somebody with more Hunter mileage to work with her. But she is not going to be using her hinny much at 2'3" and even a cow can jump 5'. From a standstill. She has a shot at improving form with quailfied Hunter Pro in the saddle. I'd give her the chance.

                          Unless you just don't like her, which, as I said, is OK. I think it's worth sending her out for a 30 day evaluation period-and I am pretty sure you can get that done for less then 2k, even up there. Worst case the trainer says she is not going to be a Hunter but gets to know you and her and that will help you sell her.

                          But, if she shows no aptitude at all after 30 days? Pull the plug on it.
                          When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                          The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think she's too young to be trying to find her form and max over fences but that is just my opinion. I don't see reasoning for taking her to another trainer for eval. her flat work is solid thanks to you and your current trainer ... I think the fences will come and come with form in time. I feel you are jumping the gun abit - again, just my opinion. Lovely mare - I would hang onto her, give her time.

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by findeight View Post
                              Is the mare just turned 4 or coming 5 this year? 4 is still awfully young but most of them show pretty much what they are by the time they are fully age 5. The ones that start perfect even as babies are out of most folks budget and most don't need a superstar anyway, just a competent Hunter.

                              You could be spinning your wheels trying to make a Hunter or she just needs somebody with more Hunter mileage to work with her. But she is not going to be using her hinny much at 2'3" and even a cow can jump 5'. From a standstill. She has a shot at improving form with quailfied Hunter Pro in the saddle. I'd give her the chance.

                              Unless you just don't like her, which, as I said, is OK. I think it's worth sending her out for a 30 day evaluation period-and I am pretty sure you can get that done for less then 2k, even up there. Worst case the trainer says she is not going to be a Hunter but gets to know you and her and that will help you sell her.

                              But, if she shows no aptitude at all after 30 days? Pull the plug on it.
                              Good idea. I think I am going to do some searching for a coach to take her for a month. I have been riding hunter for over 15 years but have only started two others before her... both Tb's that were easy peasy.
                              Atleast, with someone else's opinion, I can say that it was an educated decision whatever the outcome.
                              http://dotstreamming.blogspot.com/

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                She looks really cute and like a nice mover. In the flat video, she looks like she wants to drop her head and get behind the bit, rather than really going onto it. That could be effecting her jump. 2'3" isn't a lot of fence for a lazy, but talented one. Mine (who is the same) did start out jumping great over her first cross rail, but she never wanted to get close to hitting one. She likes to do a similar thing on the flat, where she is pretending to go on the bit, by lowering her head and bringing her nose in, but not really engaging. She has figured it out, since then and doesn't put out a whole lot of effort at home, anymore, except on occassion. When she goes out to a big show, though, she jumps great. She never saw her first fence until 5. At 4, for a WB, I wouldn't be in a big hurry to move the heights up much. Going to a local show, where things are new and exciting, might show you more and maybe you could get some opinions from other trainers there. If she has plenty of scope and just not a pretty jump, maybe she'd make a good jumper, instead.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by luckeys71 View Post
                                  She looks really cute and like a nice mover. In the flat video, she looks like she wants to drop her head and get behind the bit, rather than really going onto it. That could be effecting her jump. 2'3" isn't a lot of fence for a lazy, but talented one. Mine (who is the same) did start out jumping great over her first cross rail, but she never wanted to get close to hitting one. She likes to do a similar thing on the flat, where she is pretending to go on the bit, by lowering her head and bringing her nose in, but not really engaging. She has figured it out, since then and doesn't put out a whole lot of effort at home, anymore, except on occassion. When she goes out to a big show, though, she jumps great. She never saw her first fence until 5. At 4, for a WB, I wouldn't be in a big hurry to move the heights up much. Going to a local show, where things are new and exciting, might show you more and maybe you could get some opinions from other trainers there. If she has plenty of scope and just not a pretty jump, maybe she'd make a good jumper, instead.
                                  i am glad to hear I am not alone. My dressage coach has been helping me with this. Tha lazy-ness is hard to overcome. Expecially when she is unphased when I use the whip. My old horses used to launch when I reinforced with a tap, yet she could care less....
                                  http://dotstreamming.blogspot.com/

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    That is why the average WB ride is kick along and the TB ride is steadying (in general). You say your others were TBs?

                                    Maybe you just need to adjust your ride to generate some impulsion and get her to use herself better? You may prefer the steadying ride and that is why you may be getting discouraged a bit? That's OK too, may just not click with you.
                                    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by pryme_thyme View Post
                                      i am glad to hear I am not alone. My dressage coach has been helping me with this. Tha lazy-ness is hard to overcome. Expecially when she is unphased when I use the whip. My old horses used to launch when I reinforced with a tap, yet she could care less....
                                      This is a training issue that you need/want to address - sooner rather than later.

                                      Consider how much it will cost to do a couple of good clinics vs 30 days with a good trainer; balance this against how much you like this mare (I think she's born April 08 so just hitting 4 this year).
                                      I suspect she has pretty much shown you who she is, though you can refine that alot with consistent riding & training.


                                      I thought about sending her to a local coach who used to ride with Ian Miller.
                                      This coach turns out lots of A hunters... might be worth a shot but one month's training is $2000.
                                      Can you do a couple lessons with this person or have a couple pro-rides done?
                                      How does this compare to your show season budget? depending on your local market, that 2K may be the best money you spend on her ...

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        I'm sort of in a similar situation with my horse, except that I have no interest in the Hunters...and I'll never outride his potential over fences...for a 16.3hh horse, the 1.15m is really not THAT much of a challenge. I'll be lucky if I ever get my riding to the level it needs to be to hit that. So. Is he the "wrong" horse for me? I hardly need a GP level talent. It might be easier to get more talent around the .9m ring...but there's no reason my horse CAN'T do that height with me.

                                        So, I have a kind of lazy horse and my coach is starting to wonder if he can actually jump. That's different than what she saw when she first saw him...but he's been ridden by amateurs all winter over simple courses maxing at about 3'. I only see him once every two weeks due to how far away I work. He has a huge stride...and he's built naturally uphill, so he can really put on a good show of "engagement"...until you realize he's four-beating at the canter. Not everyone wants to package my horse to his potential, it can be hard work, but I like him. He's fun for me, right now. I think he still has a lot to teach me. I'm certainly not the best rider to bring out HIS best, but I am willing to try. My falling apart at the last show notwithstanding, I do actually get satisfactory results out of this horse. Beginning in one month, I am moving to the same city as my coach, so I can ride him and get everyone else off him (they have made good progress with him in many areas...just the laziness now needs some focused attention.)

                                        For me, money does enter the equation. I can't sell this horse, even with a year's competition experience and all the beginner-safeness in the world to buy anything finished that is MORE talented. So, when I look at what I can buy for his selling price...blech, better the "devil" I know, IMO. Push ride and all. I tried some 40-odd horses when I was looking last time...and he's one of THREE that I actually enjoyed getting on and riding. And I still like him! All horses have imperfections, I think. It completely depends what issues you prefer to deal with, most of the time. Yes, sometimes I wish I was riding my Thoroughbred, all engine...usually when I'm tired and sore and my inside leg is very sick of being used. Then again, I appreciate my guy's slow, easy canter which is kind of reassuring when I get nervous at shows. My Thoroughbred winds me up, the warmblood is kind of a complement to my personality.

                                        I think for YOU you may need to consider what you're willing to change, in order to make any kind of decision, and I do agree that the horse is young/untried enough to probably warrant at least a season.

                                        -Are you willing to change coaches? Not all coaches are suited to the entire career progression of horse and rider. Willing to explore whether someone else can get the results you hope for? If you like the coach more than the horse, or there are just no good alternatives to try, then this is a vote for selling!

                                        -Are you willing to change disciplines or lower your ambition? My horse is probably better suited to the low Hunters, but I hate braiding and judged events with a passion. I'd rather place last in a Jumper division than braid. Seriously. This is not true of everyone! Some coaches are not really happy with this arrangement. Would you be happy winning a different division, or are your goals non-negotiable? It's not a bad thing to be goal-driven...but that's another vote to sell.

                                        -Are you willing to lease a horse to achieve your competitive goals, and lease your horse out to someone who prefers her? Like a Dressage rider maybe? A younger coach or trainer might like a purpose-bred youngster to bring to the young horse classes and show off their training talent. That might be a good way to test out the selling situation, without having to "say goodbye" to the horse you have so much time invested in!

                                        Just some stuff to mull over. Horse looks very pretty in photos and you look to suit her. At 4 she isn't even done growing, and not close to mature mentally...not sure it is totally fair to judge her as a jumper yet...but then, I haven't seen her and you know her very well.
                                        Lifestyle coordinator for Zora, Spooky, Wolfgang and Warrior

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