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Drugged lesson horses?

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  • #61
    I only aced my horse when returning from a severe injury. We were worried he would run and buck and ruin all our hard work..BUT as said before I was at a barn that constantly drugged horses. It really annoyed us that less experienced riders would try and tell much more experienced riders what to do because the untrained ones rode them drugged not straight up!
    I leased a horse from this barn, a lovely OTTB, that was afraid of his shadow but we worked it out and I know he wasn't drugged because they never knew when I was coming. It could be 10 am or 7 pm...He was nervous and needed one rider that was me and he turned out to be a very nice horse...
    Most of these barns do not want to pay for a good pony they would rather buy something cheap and unsound run it into the ground and be done with them...What a shame!
    JMHO
    Mai Tai aka Tyler RIP March 1994-December 2011
    Grief is the price we pay for love- Gretchen Jackson
    "And here she comes. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's ZENYATTA!"

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    • #62
      Everything I'm reading so far is that it boils down to short-cuts. Trainers want to bring in clients, so you say, "I've got horses that anyone can ride!" Then you drug the schoolies and tell the client they've got natural talent.

      You want those clients to stay, and bring in more money, so you tell them they need to be doing the jrs/ammy's after 6 weeks. They get excited because they've never jumped 3'6" before, and then you tell them they need a fancy import because you can't win on the school horses.

      You fly across the country and con them into buying the stuff that wins indoors. Of course, they can't even ride the school horses, so you have to dose the fancy import just to keep the client out of the dirt.

      Just in case the client smells a rat, and they leave the barn, they discover the "real" (unmedicated) horse, and they come running back to you because the horse suddenly went wild under the new trainer. So the client comes back, and then raves about the miracles sleazy trainer can work after just one ride. Hah.


      Two points I'd like to make:

      1. I wouldn't exactly put ace pills and ace injectables into the same category. Ace pills take the edge off, so to speak, and IV ace is more along the lines of sedating the horse for vet procedures. (Someone who knows more can correct me if I'm wrong.)

      2. The person I worked for who did this learned it from other, BIG BNT's. The same ones who told her how to win at A shows. Get a bottle of X, give X cc's, and if the drug testers come after you, make sure you waste an hour before they test. It's not just the little guys, and it's not just ace. Ace is the tip of the iceberg.

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      • #63
        there might be an explanation. Some medicines, including ACE are used for the purpose in which they were intended, not just to give a calming effect -

        Comment


        • #64
          There was a boarder at the barn I used to lesson at that INSISTED her horse be drugged before she rode it......grrrr......my trainer's version of "aceing" it was to have me ride it in the lesson beforehand. It definitely was not aced. I know this because I used to ride on the days I worked there and I'd be in charge of the barn for five hours beforehand, so there was little going on that I didn't know about. Plus, it was a gelding who always dropped when aced, and he never did with me. We used to joke around and ask if we could ace the owner, who refused to sell no matter how horrendous a match it was. She kept saying things like "we've had good times together." At her old barn, where he was probably aced for her (seeing as she'd always ASK us to do it like it was as regular as picking feet).

          I agree that there's a time and a place for ace, but not on a regular basis and certainly not at a show no matter how small. If it's a horse coming off and injury that can't do any more than walk and tends to explode, then hell yeah ace the thing. Much better than having it reinjure itself.
          I love my Econo-Nag!

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          • #65
            Originally posted by RockinHorse View Post
            Personally, I consider injury rehab an appropriate use of ACE for riding.
            we had a horse (not at the drugging barn, at a different barn that I worked at) that was coming off a back injury and the vet told us to ace him for his first turn out. We gave him quite a bit, but he literally went looney tunes when we turned him out in the indoor anyway.

            That was when I was told that ace can have the opposite effect on some horses...has anyone else ever heard of this? I guess it could be a possiblity like how Nyquil gives some people the gitters and keeps them up all night (though I understand Nyquil and ace are two totally different things!)
            I WAS a proud member of the *I'm In My 20's and Hope to Be a Good Rider Someday* clique..but now I am 30!!!!!!!!!!!
            My new blog about my Finger Lakes Finest:
            She Ain't No Small Potato!

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            • #66
              Originally posted by AllyandPete View Post
              That was when I was told that ace can have the opposite effect on some horses...has anyone else ever heard of this? I guess it could be a possiblity like how Nyquil gives some people the gitters and keeps them up all night (though I understand Nyquil and ace are two totally different things!)
              I guess it could be a possibility, but I think it's pretty unlikely. Some horses probably have a higher tolerance to it than others and that beast may have been one of them.
              I love my Econo-Nag!

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              • #67
                Yes, ace can definitely have the opposite effect than intended on some horses. For this reason many shippers prefer to carry something other than ace in case they need to tranq one. Nothing like making a badly misbehaving horse act worse than he was already acting..
                Jessi Pizzurro ~~ Pennyroyal Stables
                Racehorses, OTTBs ~~ 330 383 1281
                Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyway. -- John Wayne

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                • #68
                  Ace can have the opposite effect on some horses. I have a horse who is terrified of the clippers. I spent a long time desensitizing him, and then we thought we'd ace him for the first *real* clipping to make it even less traumatic. He got 2ccs and became BELIGERENT-- and we didn't even have the clippers out yet. No doping whatsoever-- he was just ANGRY. And it's not over a fear of needles because he gets Adequan regularly in his stall without even having his halter on. Something in the Ace didn't agree with him.
                  ~Veronica
                  "The Son Dee Times" "Sustained" "Somerset" "Franklin Square"
                  http://photobucket.com/albums/y192/vxf111/

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by gottagrey View Post
                    there might be an explanation. Some medicines, including ACE are used for the purpose in which they were intended, not just to give a calming effect -
                    That, so far as I know--the calming effect--is the purpose for which acepromazine is intended.
                    "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                    ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

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                    • #70
                      my thought exactly!

                      Originally posted by AllyandPete View Post
                      was when I was told that ace can have the opposite effect on some horses...has anyone else ever heard of this?
                      This is exactly what I was always told...........

                      When aceing a horse coming back from injury (hand walking, walking under saddle), or for vet/injury issues, I have always given the first shot in a quiet/safe area or stall to see how they will react in the long run (I have seen aced horses at shows loose it). Then proceed if it takes the edge off, if not we find a second plan.

                      My trainers always pointed out horses that were tranqed at shows to teach us how to spot it and would drill it into or heads how inappropriate that was.I think I would fear for my life if I was found misusing tranq and didn't just work through issues, from some of my former trainers/mentors.

                      It's not tranquilizers that are the issues, its the trainers, horse owners, riders and vets, who allow it to be used inappropriately that are.
                      Proud Mom of a 2005 Nevada Mustang **Mistress X**
                      Undersaddle Equestrian Services
                      www.undersaddle.com

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                      • #71
                        It's not tranquilizers that are the issues, its those who allow it to be used inappropriately that are.
                        IMO all immoral low life!

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                        • #72
                          While I agree that the practice of regularly drugging school horses is reprehensible (and I've seen in done in a show barn in L.A.), I would caution against naming names or nearly naming names in a public forum like this. The OP was very cautious not to identify the barn in question, but from subsequent posts, I easily figured it out. In my humble opinion, unless you've actually seen the needles going in day after day, it's best not to call somebody out publicly, especially when their reputation and livelihood are involved. Just my two cents.

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                          • #73
                            Whenever we're dealing with accusations of abuse, criminal or big-time unethical behavior, please leave the names/identifying descriptions out of the picture.

                            We've removed/edited a couple of posts for that reason.

                            Thanks,
                            Mod 1

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                            • #74
                              Originally Posted by Figment
                              MANY trainers are scientists and are great at knowing what to give each horse for each occasion. Often the riders know nothing about any of it. The cost of the drugs is built into trainers' fees. In so many cases the owners expect their horses to win and the trainers are under so much pressure to make that happen as often as possible.


                              Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
                              That's a poor excuse for such behavior.
                              I agree. This whole thing is really amazing to me. I had no idea this sort of thing happened. I've heard of it in sale situations, but as a routine part of lessons? No. I am glad that I learned to ride in lessons many years ago, where we had to deal with the horses, as they were. I would think it much more dangerous to ride and jump a drugged horse than a fresh one.

                              Again, it seems to be a very poor substitute for actual training.


                              Edited to add that I absolutely do not agree with drugging sale horses either...
                              Akal Ranch Blog - http://akalranch.com/
                              Simrat Khalsa Fine Art & Photography - http://www.simratkhalsa.com/

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                              • #75
                                And then there are the trainers who have no idea what the drugs do, but they give them because that's what other trainers do. No thought to long term effects or drug interactions.

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                                • #76
                                  when my four year old was coming back from colic surgury, he had had three months of stall rest so that his abdominal muscles could repair themselves. At 18.2, there was no way I was handwalking him for the first time without a little "help." We used ace pills for that. We'd put them in his morning mash, and I'd wait a little bit after he ate. Once I saw that crazy gleam go out of his eyes I'd take him out and walk him. He was still on his toes, and leaped into the air squealing quite a few times, but that was much milder than what he would have done without his cocktails.
                                  Oldenburgs do it better

                                  rip mystic puddin' 1984-2006
                                  rip banacek 1992-2007

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                                  • #77
                                    But

                                    Originally posted by danosaur View Post
                                    when my four year old was coming back from colic surgury, he had had three months of stall rest so that his abdominal muscles could repair themselves. At 18.2, there was no way I was handwalking him for the first time without a little "help." We used ace pills for that. We'd put them in his morning mash, and I'd wait a little bit after he ate. Once I saw that crazy gleam go out of his eyes I'd take him out and walk him. He was still on his toes, and leaped into the air squealing quite a few times, but that was much milder than what he would have done without his cocktails.
                                    But you weren't riding him over jumps. And as other posters have said, you weren't using Ace instead of training the horse. My experiences have been in seeing horses Aced for hunter/jmper shows. Jumping while under the influence. I think that is always wrong and would not allow one barn I was at to do it to my laid-back, but fast, WB.

                                    People who want to Ace for shows should have their own special classes, and not be in with the horses who are competing based upon their training.

                                    And drugs can have the opposite effect on horses, whether it is their resistance or not, some horses, including one belonging to a friend, get wild and angry when they are Aced, and once my friend's horse got Rompun when he colicked, and he was violent. Made it thru surgery thank God.

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by danosaur View Post
                                      when my four year old was coming back from colic surgury, he had had three months of stall rest so that his abdominal muscles could repair themselves. At 18.2, there was no way I was handwalking him for the first time without a little "help."
                                      There is a vast gulf between what you did with a post-surgical return to work and routine drugging of horses in regular work.

                                      It's the difference between drug use and drug abuse.
                                      "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

                                      ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

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