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How is the decision made of whether a horse is a "catch ride" vs. a "paid lease"?

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  • How is the decision made of whether a horse is a "catch ride" vs. a "paid lease"?

    This is something I've been curious about, based on several recent threads. Obviously it has to do with a combination of experience/training/previous results (of both horse and rider), but what would you say would put a horse/pony in one category vs. the other?

    At the extremes, it is easy to pick out: a green horse that has never been shown is a candidate for "pay all expenses plus a fee to the person riding" or, if you are lucky "pay all expenses"; and a pony who has previously won PF is an obvious example of "someone will pay big money to lease this pony for a season". But what about in between? Do the owner's ambitions for the horse come into play (ie, I want to sell this horse quickly for as much as possible, so I will pay a BNT to show it vs. This is a nice/made horse that I plan to keep but am not currently riding, so would like to lease it to someone)?

    Just wondering what peoples' opinions are (and note: they aren't in regards to any particular horse- mine all currently fall into the "beg someone to ride" category at this point in time ).

  • #2
    Well I think you're talking about three different scenarios, actually. To me paying a BNT to show is not a catch ride. A catch ride is a good junior or a good amateur who can and will hop on the horse and jump it around at the show for you. I would ask someone to catch ride a horse if I wanted it to go in a division I was not eligible for, for example if I had a nice 3'6" horse I wanted to sell that had only been doing pro divisions I would get a junior to do it in the jr hunters so that people would see it was capable of jumping around without a pro ride. If I had two horses in a division and I wanted both to hack I would find a catch rider to hack one of them. If I had a nice pony that was for sale I would find the best kid I could to campaign it in the division or children's ponies. Or if I had something for sale that was really safe and quiet at lower levels and I wanted to show people that, I would find a kid to do it in the S/S or pre-children's.

    A paid lease would obviously be ideal, but it's easier to find someone who will show your horse for free so if I had something I wanted to lease out or sell, the catch rider would be the person that would help me gain interest by campaigning it in one of the aforementioned divisions.

    I think a catch rider has to inherently be a better rider by the nature of the game: if I am paying all expenses for someone else to show my horse, I want to be confident that they're not going to majorly blow a distance or a swap. If I have a really nice children's packer that I want to lease out, I would certainly lease to the kid who needs to step up to the division and learn how to do the 3', but I wouldn't ask that same kid to catch ride for me.
    "to live is the rarest thing in the world, most people merely exist."

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    • #3
      Its a paid lease when you pay board on the horse outside a show or pay a lease fee. Its a catch ride when you pay ONLY expenses associated with that show (or no expenses at all.)

      For example, I leased a jumper this summer. It was a free lease while they sold the horse. I paid board on him while I had him and I paid for his shoes. Therefore, lease.

      Another horse I showed at a local show. I paid entries and that was it. Catch ride! Another horses I took to HITs for a week. I paid his stall fee, entries, braiding, etc. Catch ride also.

      So if you're paying board on the horse while he's at home and/or you pay a lease fee for the horse at a show...its a lease. It might be just a lease for the show, but its still a lease. You're paying for the right to show the horse, not being given the opportunity.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Rel6 View Post
        Another horse I showed at a local show. I paid entries and that was it. Catch ride! Another horses I took to HITs for a week. I paid his stall fee, entries, braiding, etc. Catch ride also.
        This is not a catch ride. This is also a lease, albeit a limited one for a show, and it happens all the time.

        A catch ride is when a rider rides a horse, typically at a show, for the benefit of the owner, either as a favor to the owner or for a fee paid by the owner to the rider.

        Rider pays owner = lease
        Owner pays rider = catch ride/pro ride
        "I always remember you as quite the desk chair contrarian." - APirateLooksAtForty

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Rel6 View Post
          Its a paid lease when you pay board on the horse outside a show or pay a lease fee. Its a catch ride when you pay ONLY expenses associated with that show (or no expenses at all.)

          For example, I leased a jumper this summer. It was a free lease while they sold the horse. I paid board on him while I had him and I paid for his shoes. Therefore, lease.

          Another horse I showed at a local show. I paid entries and that was it. Catch ride! Another horses I took to HITs for a week. I paid his stall fee, entries, braiding, etc. Catch ride also.

          So if you're paying board on the horse while he's at home and/or you pay a lease fee for the horse at a show...its a lease. It might be just a lease for the show, but its still a lease. You're paying for the right to show the horse, not being given the opportunity.
          I disagree with this.

          A catch rider, generally does not have to pay the show expenses.

          How you decide between a paid lease and a catch ride? Who benefits the most, the rider or the horse being shown. That generally determines who pays.
          Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
          Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

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          • Original Poster

            #6
            Originally posted by ponies123 View Post
            Well I think you're talking about three different scenarios, actually. To me paying a BNT to show is not a catch ride.
            I am sort of talking about several different scenarios, I guess.
            In one scenario, you pay both the showing fees AND a fee to the person riding.
            In the next scenario, you only pay showing fees.
            In the next scenario after that, maybe someone else pays the fees for the show (but doesn't pay a lease fee).
            And in the last scenario, someone is paying for the shows and a lease fee.

            Does this sound sort of like an accurate scale? I guess what I am asking is what type of horse (experience-level, etc), would you classify as being in each of these situations? At what point, for example, does a horse go from being one that you have to pay someone to show, to one that someone pays to show?
            Last edited by murieics; Feb. 2, 2012, 11:59 AM. Reason: Removed the last part, as that question was answered while posting

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            • #7
              I think that if you pay the fees to show the horse, it's just a free lease for the length of a show. In my opinion, it's only a catch ride if someone swings a leg over and doesn't pay a dime, nor is paid a dime.

              My trainer riding my horse at a show is not a catch ride. Another trainer hacking my horse at a show because my trainer has too many is a catch ride.

              Someone taking my horse to a show and paying to show it is not a catch ride. Someone riding my horse on Saturday in the AAs because I have to be out of town and can't get in until Sunday is a catch ride.

              I don't consider paid rides to be catch rides. If I'm paying you to ride, you're not catch riding. (A little gift doesn't count.)

              All in my opinion, of course!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by murieics View Post
                At what point, for example, does a horse go from being one that you have to pay someone to show, to one that someone pays to show?
                I don't think there is any one point. It really is situational. A been there, done that horse might be a lease for a junior wanting to move up or it might be a catch ride for an owner who just likes to watch her horse show.
                Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
                Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

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                • #9
                  Rider pays owner = lease

                  Rider doesn't pay owner, but pays horse's expenses = lease

                  Owner pays rider and all expenses = pro ride

                  Owner pays all expenses, but does not pay rider = catch ride

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by murieics View Post
                    In one scenario, you pay both the showing fees AND a fee to the person riding.

                    I would expect my green horse to be at this level, also any horse I have that is in training, even if it isn't green and is just going around, say, the Lows to prep him for the weekend. This is NOT a catch ride.

                    In the next scenario, you only pay showing fees.

                    This is a catch ride. I'd expect my broke horse to do this under certain circumstances, i.e. a junior needs an eq horse and I like the kid and want to let her ride him. I get sick and still want my horse to finish the show. I want my horse to go around a junior or ammy division that I can't/won't go in.

                    In the next scenario after that, maybe someone else pays the fees for the show (but doesn't pay a lease fee).

                    This would be like a free lease for the length of the show. I'd do this with a broke horse and I'd do this for someone who I wanted to do a favor. If someone was doing me a favor by riding the horse around for the horse or my benefit, I wouldn't expect them to pay. This also isn't a catch ride.

                    And in the last scenario, someone is paying for the shows and a lease fee.

                    This would be a nice broke horse that someone is willing to pay you to ride. Not a catch ride.

                    Does this sound sort of like an accurate scale? I guess what I am asking is what type of horse (experience-level, etc), would you classify as being in each of these situations? At what point, for example, does a horse go from being one that you have to pay someone to show, to one that someone pays to show?

                    I was thinking of a "catch ride" as you pay someone to ride the horse in a show for you. I wasn't thinking about the fact that you might have someone that pays only to show the horse (and for nothing else). So would they both be called/considered "catch rides" then?
                    I disagree with your statement in red. I don't consider it a catch ride if you're paying the person. I don't consider my trainer to be catch riding my horse when I pay her to show my horse.

                    Comment

                    • Original Poster

                      #11
                      Originally posted by RockinHorse View Post
                      I don't think there is any one point. It really is situational. A been there, done that horse might be a lease for a junior wanting to move up or it might be a catch ride for an owner who just likes to watch her horse show.
                      That's what I sort of figured. I was just hoping maybe there was some way to make a determination other than "it depends".

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Bent Hickory View Post
                        Rider pays owner = lease
                        Owner pays rider = catch ride/pro ride
                        Some clarification. For me a catch rider, even with a pro, is someone who ordinarily does not ride the horse on a day-to-day basis, except in a show situation. If I send out a horse to a pro for training, the pro riding the horse at a show is not a catch rider. If the pro taps a rider (even if its another pro) at or just prior to the show to ride the horse, with or without a fee to the rider, that is a catch ride.
                        "I always remember you as quite the desk chair contrarian." - APirateLooksAtForty

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by murieics View Post
                          I am sort of talking about several different scenarios, I guess.
                          In one scenario, you pay both the showing fees AND a fee to the person riding.
                          In the next scenario, you only pay showing fees.
                          In the next scenario after that, maybe someone else pays the fees for the show (but doesn't pay a lease fee).
                          And in the last scenario, someone is paying for the shows and a lease fee.

                          Does this sound sort of like an accurate scale? I guess what I am asking is what type of horse (experience-level, etc), would you classify as being in each of these situations? At what point, for example, does a horse go from being one that you have to pay someone to show, to one that someone pays to show?
                          Scenario one: pro ride
                          Scenario two: catch ride
                          Scenario three and four: show lease

                          I don't think you can make a blanket generalization for what type/level of a horse is appropriate for what "classification" of show ride. I used to catch ride very green ponies as a junior because I liked to sit on anything and everything, but those ponies could certainly have benefited from a pro ride as well. If someone has a horse who is a star at 3' but less experience over larger fences, they might pay a pro to do him in a bigger division, but the same horse could be potentially leased to someone who needs something to pack them around at 2'6". We have had a few stellar ponies in the barn who could fetch a high lease fee (and were being advertised as such), but when they didn't have a rider and we wanted them to go around we got a really good pony jock to do them in the division - obviously those superbly talented riders didn't have to pay us to show.
                          "to live is the rarest thing in the world, most people merely exist."

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            #14
                            Originally posted by AmmyByNature View Post
                            I disagree with your statement in red. I don't consider it a catch ride if you're paying the person. I don't consider my trainer to be catch riding my horse when I pay her to show my horse.
                            Ok, so then as follows:

                            Pay both showing fees and the person riding = "training ride at a show"

                            Pay showing fees only = "catch ride"

                            Comment

                            • Original Poster

                              #15
                              Originally posted by ponies123 View Post
                              I don't think you can make a blanket generalization for what type/level of a horse is appropriate for what "classification" of show ride. I used to catch ride very green ponies as a junior because I liked to sit on anything and everything, but those ponies could certainly have benefited from a pro ride as well. If someone has a horse who is a star at 3' but less experience over larger fences, they might pay a pro to do him in a bigger division, but the same horse could be potentially leased to someone who needs something to pack them around at 2'6". We have had a few stellar ponies in the barn who could fetch a high lease fee (and were being advertised as such), but when they didn't have a rider and we wanted them to go around we got a really good pony jock to do them in the division - obviously those superbly talented riders didn't have to pay us to show.
                              Makes sense. So again, back to "it depends".

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by murieics View Post
                                Ok, so then as follows:

                                Owner Pays both showing fees and the person riding = "training ride at a show"

                                Owner Pays showing fees only = "catch ride"
                                If what I put in red is what you meant to say, then I agree. If I am paying YOU, you aren't catch riding. If YOU are paying ME, you aren't catch riding.

                                Comment

                                • Original Poster

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by AmmyByNature View Post
                                  If what I put in red is what you meant to say, then I agree. If I am paying YOU, you aren't catch riding. If YOU are paying ME, you aren't catch riding.
                                  Yes, that is exactly what I meant to say- I should have specified who was paying whom.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Bent Hickory View Post
                                    This is not a catch ride. This is also a lease, albeit a limited one for a show, and it happens all the time.

                                    A catch ride is when a rider rides a horse, typically at a show, for the benefit of the owner, either as a favor to the owner or for a fee paid by the owner to the rider.

                                    Rider pays owner = lease
                                    Owner pays rider = catch ride/pro ride

                                    I would not consider it a lease. Maybe not exactly a catch ride, but I don't think its a lease either. I was riding horses for a sale barn, rode one of them well, and was offered the opportunity to take it to a show. I don't consider that a lease.

                                    To me, lease is beneficial for the rider. Catch-ride is beneficial for the horse.

                                    What I did was both, so maybe a catch-lease?

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by AmmyByNature View Post
                                      If what I put in red is what you meant to say, then I agree. If I am paying YOU, you aren't catch riding. If YOU are paying ME, you aren't catch riding.
                                      Catch riding is less about whether the rider gets paid and more situational involving the horse needing a rider at an event. The rider "catches" a ride by being in the right place at the right time or knowing the right people.

                                      If a Big Name Owner (BNO) with a made pony already entered into a Big Name Show (BNS) finds that the BNO's regular jockey unexpectedly can't make that show for whatever reason, the BNO needs a "catch" rider. In many situations, the BNO will pay the catch rider. Payment to the rider doesn't change the fact this is a catch ride. This is not a training ride, a schooling ride, or a tune up. This about the owner needing someone to ride the pony at the event.

                                      In horse racing, the same term is used. When a jockey gets hurt in an earlier race or "catches" a better horse to ride or a owner and horse shows up without jockey, the owner needs to find a jockey for the race. This is a catch ride for the jockey - and he gets paid.
                                      "I always remember you as quite the desk chair contrarian." - APirateLooksAtForty

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by joiedevie99 View Post
                                        Rider pays owner = lease

                                        Rider doesn't pay owner, but pays horse's expenses = lease

                                        Owner pays rider and all expenses = pro ride

                                        Owner pays all expenses, but does not pay rider = catch ride
                                        this.

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