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thoughts on this training concept?

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  • EqTrainer
    replied
    I agree with all the positive comments. It is how we train and retrain every horse. The only sad thing is, it is becoming a lost art.

    The reason the horse appears to be under tempo is because the rider is not asking him to carry more than he can push. He can stay in balance at this tempo, so that is the correct tempo for him right now. More forward will come as he builds more strength and can carry as much as he pushes. IF she asked him to be more forward, he would not be able to carry it, and therefore run onto his forehand. Forward is a seriously misunderstood word. Balance would be a better one to focus initially, IMO.

    The back is key. Without developing relaxation and strength in the back the horse never can carry his own body or that of a rider comfortably. This is not really a "training concept" its just the basics.

    Leave a comment:


  • englishivy
    replied
    Originally posted by Summit Springs Farm View Post
    The key, for us, have been a well established walk, honestly, reinforced by spending the time walking correctly every single ride, not rushing off to establish the correctness at the trot, like so many riders do.
    They'll wander around the ring, then get to work at the trot.

    Everything goes better once the correct walk is established, head and shoulder swinging, slow feet and working back to front. Every ride.
    Back in the day, thats what trail riding did for our horses. Gets the correct muscle structure, long and low.

    Time frame is dependent on consistency first, frequency and quality of rides. I've seen many a horse get correct durring one ride by Ann.
    But to be stuck on his hocks, slow footed. working back to front is a every single ride kinda ride, every time, regardless.
    He will get stronger with every ride. Seek the earth and then come into the bridle.
    Its a dressage type of ride, and how long does that take to correctly get a horse on the bit?
    Agreed.

    We also do a tremendous amount of walk work at the start of the reschool.

    I read somewhere that Jimmy Wofford said something along the lines that the "walk creates strength, the trot creates power, and the canter creates speed". This was in reference to Eventing, but I believe there is some truth to it. A great walk is so important, but all too often under valued.

    Leave a comment:


  • netg
    replied
    Originally posted by Summit Springs Farm View Post
    But to be stuck on his hocks, slow footed. working back to front is a every single ride kinda ride, every time, regardless.
    He will get stronger with every ride. Seek the earth and then come into the bridle.
    Its a dressage type of ride, and how long does that take to correctly get a horse on the bit?
    Unfortunately, on the dressage board most posters would say you can't give up the contact, and just stick the horse in side reins to develop correct muscling.

    My mom's horse was very inverted (she's a Friesian cross - if you've seen the Friesians who go w/ and inverted neck and head in the air, you've seen how she wanted to travel.) The start of her road to recovery WAS long trail rides at a walk to help re-shape muscle. I've been riding her consistently since early September and she's just getting the proper muscling now, and I'm just starting to longe her now. She has a very weak canter, and we're working on transitions with no rider so she can figure out her balance and stop trying to rely on me to hold her up as she apparently had become accustomed in a past life.

    My horse wasn't inverted when I got him, but had many of the same issues as far as lack of back movement and not engaging his hind end well. I bought him with the mistaken belief that his trot was easy to sit and would be good for my conversion from hunter to dressage seat... he took about three months of the method shown in the video for his trot to get big enough I had no hope of sitting it! He was a curler, and had a lovely packaged look, and just looked like he was a 6 mover. He's probably more of an 8 mover (dressage-wise, too much knee for hunters) now that his back moves when he moves. I took about 3 months without much contact at all to get the relaxation, from there it was another 3 months before he started showing a big change in his jump - rounding and stretching over fences instead of hollowing. He will never have a hunter-style bascule, but he now can take any spot asked for and is more consistent about it. He used to always try for long spots if there was an option as he couldn't get his hind end under him for shorter ones. Now he's been working for less than two years (about a year and a half if you take into account the two months we were both out of commission) with the back end working properly and he's coming up in front like you can see in my profile pic, and instead of a sewing machine trot is really able to reach forward - and getting the idea of a collected trot which is leaning toward the upper level dressage collection we'll want. He actually can have a more huntery trot if I ask, as well. His working trot he tends to have an overstep, and in lengthenings/extensions his overstep is about 1'. Point being, getting the back end working right is the basis of adjustability and asking the horse to do what you want, regardless of what it is you want.

    Leave a comment:


  • Summit Springs Farm
    replied
    The key, for us, have been a well established walk, honestly, reinforced by spending the time walking correctly every single ride, not rushing off to establish the correctness at the trot, like so many riders do.
    They'll wander around the ring, then get to work at the trot.

    Everything goes better once the correct walk is established, head and shoulder swinging, slow feet and working back to front. Every ride.
    Back in the day, thats what trail riding did for our horses. Gets the correct muscle structure, long and low.

    Time frame is dependent on consistency first, frequency and quality of rides. I've seen many a horse get correct durring one ride by Ann.
    But to be stuck on his hocks, slow footed. working back to front is a every single ride kinda ride, every time, regardless.
    He will get stronger with every ride. Seek the earth and then come into the bridle.
    Its a dressage type of ride, and how long does that take to correctly get a horse on the bit?

    Leave a comment:


  • War Admiral
    replied
    Conformation comes into it as well... My Saddlebred is, of course, naturally upheaded, with a very straight shoulder. He has been a lonnnnnnnnnng retrain and we're not even remotely there yet! Once he gets excited, that head comes up and stays up. So I do a LOT of groundwork with long lines (no devices!) and gentle coaxing.

    I'm kinda hesitant to even post this, but it's sort of an OK example of where you go *next* after the video the OP posted. Here is my kid who really after 2.5 years is only just *starting* to get the memo. We are working on "slow feet" (love that expression, never heard it before, but it's very illustrative!) on the longlines. You can see just enough steps of genuine throughness here and there to see how he could on occasion (if he's in the mood) get a piece of a hack. He's actually slightly better than this, but I was driving with one hand and shooting vid with the other - which I *should* be able to do but can't really! If nothing else, this video will show you the benefits of the method in improving a horse whose natural conformation really is not ideally suited to the job.

    Leave a comment:


  • englishivy
    replied
    Originally posted by GingerJumper View Post
    I got lost at the part where it says there are pictures to the right of horses jumping in good form... didn't see any pictures there
    This video is embedded in her website and the pictures are there. www.annekenan.com

    Leave a comment:


  • englishivy
    replied
    Originally posted by rockfordbuckeye View Post
    For those of you that mention you have done "re-training" in this method - how long do you generally feel it has taken to get a horse to accept going long and low when they have been being ridden inverted? How long do you feel it takes to re-muscle correctly?
    That is a pretty loaded question since so many factors come into play: how long the horse has gone incorrect (which really relates to how defined is the incorrect muscle memory), conformation, and temperment. There is also the rider, can they a) keep a non-interferring position and then b) influnce correctly? If you have to change rider while changing horse, it takes a lot longer.

    I had one reschool that blossomed quickly with the process, despite his kid being reschooled at the same time. But he was generally quiet undersaddle, was built uphill, and was submissive and willing by nature. Due to chronic hoof abcesses, he has spent quite a while walking in hand and undersaddle prior to coming to me, so I think that helped-he didn't have good muscle but he didn't have bad muscle either. Within two months (riding 2x a week with me, 2 lessons a week with kid) he went from inverted, short stridded, and VERY crooked (compulsive stall walker) to straight, balanced and stabilized at the walk and trot. (**and the stall walking was greatly minimized). Give it a few more months he was all that at the w/t/c. By month 6-7, we were working on the o/f; I should note that the quality wasn't there yet-we were just looking to be straight and with a rhythm to, over, and after the jumps...ya know, learning that "jumping is just flatwork with something in the way" kind of thing.


    A different horse in my barn is taking a.lot. longer. Same program set up as horse above, but kid was in a much worse place as well. Although the horse is built a little uphill, he had a very weak back/loins and a loose, over flexable body type. He had very little body awareness, and quite frankly, wasn't mentally with us most of the time (he disassociated when undersaddle). He was bought with 30 days backing as a 4 yr old and spent the next 2 years ridden backwards and held. Well, more like muscled into submission. Although he is a "people person" kind of horse, he came spoiled rotten and very pushy; limits were not somthing he understood.
    We dealt with many behaivoral issues first (no, you cannot try to buck me off when I get on you), as well as some major soreness and strength issues, but one year later we have a solid w/t and could do some small jumps up to 2' with quality. The canter has been very difficult for horse and rider in terms of forgetting old habits (didn't used to have brakes-stopped by slamming him into the indoor walls ), but we can now get him slow and trying to relax, constantly wanting to break to the trot vs running like the devil. *winning* The quality will come in time as he gets stronger. We are hoping to do some shows undersaddle this spring, if kid can keep her cool .

    So I think it really depends on a lot of factors. If your horse is inverted and riding more behind your leg, I would be prepared to put the time and miles into doing it slowly. If your horse is quiet and willing, and you are able to ride with correct influence, it could be a short period, maybe 8 weeks or so? With most horses, rushing is what got them incorrect in the first place (both litterally and figuratively), so it is best to take your time.

    Another point I would like to add is that most of the horses I deal with are reschools, usually with behaivoral and physical issues. With this process, I not only find the horses more willing and happy to work, but most of the physical problems disappear as well. Some of the physical complications that I've addressed are weak stifles, sore hocks, back soreness, chronic soft tissues soreness in front fetlocks, and SI/croup soreness. By going proper, these issues pretty much resolve themselves (but I also give credit to my great support system of vets, farrier, chiro, dentist, etc).

    Leave a comment:


  • rockfordbuckeye
    replied
    For those of you that mention you have done "re-training" in this method - how long do you generally feel it has taken to get a horse to accept going long and low when they have been being ridden inverted? How long do you feel it takes to re-muscle correctly?

    Leave a comment:


  • Summit Springs Farm
    replied
    Ms. Kenan is our trainer at home, we work with her to achieve the "correctness" she teaches to all of our horses.

    She begins with the young ones,as well as our performance hunters,she currently is working with our yearling colt, who will be doing the hunter breeding classes in 2012.

    Ms. Kenan has been an integral park of our training program for 2 plus years, assisting us on how to get the best jump out of our performance hunters and conditioning them to be better movers.

    Ms. Kenan is also a "R" judge and knows what to strive for, so we are constantly in appreciation in what she has to offer us.

    As to the video, it is a work in progress, not the end game you are seeing.

    Ok, now you know our secret!

    Leave a comment:


  • englishivy
    replied
    I usually keep my comments rather PC around here-I am not one much to start heated discussions. But I feel very connected to this thread and will comment accordingly.

    I have known and ridden with the trainer in question, Anne Kenan, for the past 10 years. Her methods are very "classical" and, unfortunately, not so common now days. The style and methodology she teaches absouletly creates a correct and proper horse that uses itself as a whole from back to front, not in pieces or borken into parts. Most of the horses I see today, irregardless of price, are not correctly put together as a result of backwards riding (hand to leg instead of the other way around).

    Proof of the pudding is in my profile pic on here-it is my homebred mare that I broke and trained with her assistance.

    Yes, the horse in the video is very pokey; we call that creating a slow footed horse. But they have to go slow at first to learn muscle/body awareness as they learn how to use their bodies differently. As they get better/stronger/more coordinated, then you ask for more pace.

    Feel free to go to my website www.englishivyfarms.com to see some of the results of her style (which stems from Lattiuer, although I am sure I am spelling that wrong). There is a before/after in the breaking & training tab (under services) and a video of another one of my homebred ponies in the "for sale" area. You can also contact me directly for more specifics.

    After being "reschooled" myself at age 20, and doing countless number of horse reschools with the same techniques, I wouldn't train a horse any other way.


    ETA: all the horses on my site were ridden without the use of gadgets such as draw reins, chambones, neck strecheres, etc. Just wanted to make that clear
    Last edited by englishivy; Jan. 2, 2012, 08:33 PM. Reason: clarification

    Leave a comment:


  • War Admiral
    replied
    Originally posted by wcporter View Post
    That makes sense, thanks for teaching me something.

    Now to go delete my initial, ignorant smarty ass comment!
    Au contraire, thank YOU for being curious and willing to learn!!!!

    Leave a comment:


  • wcporter
    replied
    Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
    As the trainer points out in her commentary, the horse is very weak behind (well, all through the topline actually) and needs strengthening. He can't up the pace until he builds the muscles up to do it correctly. He's having to learn to completely use different muscles than he has had to use before, so he'll look a little laggy for a while. The point is to teach him NOT to rush and run above the bridle as he was in the beginning of the vid. You're asking for a slow, relaxed pace which you will gradually raise as time passes.
    That makes sense, thanks for teaching me something.

    Now to go delete my initial, ignorant smarty ass comment!

    Leave a comment:


  • MorganLuvr848
    replied
    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
    This is a classical dressage technique to get a horse to come over their back and open up the step, called "uberstreichen" (over stroke). The idea is that the horse has to lift through their back and neck (even though it is low) in order to engage the hind quarters and to relax the body to carry a bigger step at a slower pace. What you look for is the hind hooves OVERSTEPPING the imprints of the front hooves. It is not easy nor simple to do correctly.

    I agree that the horse was very constricted and not through its back (inverted). The rider is using too much hand with no leg initially.

    I use the "over stroke" on all of my horses and find it does help their jumping and their ability to carry a longer open step that is more energy conserving over longer distances.

    If you think about it, a proper Training Level dressage frame is equivalent to the frame and movement you want in the hunters. A long and low but moving from the hind end type of horse.

    Reed
    I completely agree! This is the way my horse was trained when he was 3. It helped build strength so that he could trot around without trying to keep his balance by having his back inverted. I wish this was used more to create a better all around horse.

    Leave a comment:


  • War Admiral
    replied
    Originally posted by wcporter View Post
    That makes sense. But is whats being shown the desired pace?
    It seemed a bit laggy to me...
    As the trainer points out in her commentary, the horse is very weak behind (well, all through the topline actually) and needs strengthening. He can't up the pace until he builds the muscles up to do it correctly. He's having to learn to completely use different muscles than he has had to use before, so he'll look a little laggy for a while. The point is to teach him NOT to rush and run above the bridle as he was in the beginning of the vid. You're asking for a slow, relaxed pace which you will gradually raise as time passes.

    Leave a comment:


  • wcporter
    replied
    Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
    THANK YOU!!!!!!! Figures it takes an eventer to come over and school the Yoof.

    There's no "speshul" about this technique - it is absolutely bog-standard Classical Dressage 101, which once upon a time was familiar terrain to all H/J trainers as well - and still should be. If GM were starting a young horse or re-starting an OTTB he'd do it exactly the same way.

    At this stage of the game, you're not worrying whether the horse appears "on the forehand" or not - it's too soon to ask a horse for a frame. You're just trying to relax the horse all through the topline, and open the horse's body up. If the horse drops his head, you GIVE with the hands to encourage him to stretch his neck and back muscles. In order to eventually get collection, you first must have relaxation, and that's what this exercise is intended to offer.

    Long and low before you do ANYTHING else. Always.

    That makes sense. But is whats being shown the desired pace?
    It seemed a bit laggy to me...

    Leave a comment:


  • alliekat
    replied
    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
    I agree that the horse was very constricted and not through its back (inverted). The rider is using too much hand with no leg initially.
    This

    Leave a comment:


  • CBoylen
    replied
    Common sense. You have to drop them down and lengthen them out before you can even think about picking them up.

    Leave a comment:


  • War Admiral
    replied
    Originally posted by RAyers View Post
    This is a classical dressage technique to get a horse to come over their back and open up the step, called "uberstreichen." The idea is that the horse has to lift through their back and neck (even though it is low) in order to engage the hind quarters and to relax the body to carry a bigger step at a slower pace.

    What you look for is the hind hooves OVERSTEPPING the imprints of the front hooves. I agree that the horse was very constricted and not through its back (inverted).

    I use this on all of my horses and find it does help their jumping and their ability to carry a longer open step that is more energy conserving over longer distances.

    Reed
    THANK YOU!!!!!!! Figures it takes an eventer to come over and school the Yoof.

    There's no "speshul" about this technique - it is absolutely bog-standard Classical Dressage 101, which once upon a time was familiar terrain to all H/J trainers as well - and still should be. If GM were starting a young horse or re-starting an OTTB he'd do it exactly the same way.

    At this stage of the game, you're not worrying whether the horse appears "on the forehand" or not - it's too soon to ask a horse for a frame. You're just trying to relax the horse all through the topline, and open the horse's body up. If the horse drops his head, you GIVE with the hands to encourage him to stretch his neck and back muscles. In order to eventually get collection, you first must have relaxation, and that's what this exercise is intended to offer.

    Long and low before you do ANYTHING else. Always.

    Leave a comment:


  • RAyers
    replied
    This is a classical dressage technique to get a horse to come over their back and open up the step, called "uberstreichen" (over stroke). The idea is that the horse has to lift through their back and neck (even though it is low) in order to engage the hind quarters and to relax the body to carry a bigger step at a slower pace. What you look for is the hind hooves OVERSTEPPING the imprints of the front hooves. It is not easy nor simple to do correctly.

    I agree that the horse was very constricted and not through its back (inverted). The rider is using too much hand with no leg initially.

    I use the "over stroke" on all of my horses and find it does help their jumping and their ability to carry a longer open step that is more energy conserving over longer distances.

    If you think about it, a proper Training Level dressage frame is equivalent to the frame and movement you want in the hunters. A long and low but moving from the hind end type of horse.

    Reed

    Leave a comment:


  • wcporter
    replied
    .

    [comment removed after being very politely put in my place. ]
    Last edited by wcporter; Jan. 2, 2012, 07:08 PM. Reason: foot in mouth lol

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