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thoughts on this training concept?

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  • #61
    Thought I'd share this, as it covers a related topic and provides some excellent visuals of what is being talked about. The narative he provides is excellent, as well.

    "How To Engage Your Horse's Back"
    BAEN's 2-Minute How To Video - with Will Faerber (Master Horseman/Classical Dressage Trainer)

    http://www.bayequest.info/2minvideo/109.htm

    Comment


    • #62
      To answer some of the questions, honestly it does take 2 very important elements, a certain amount Finesse and Patience.

      Once your horse gets the idea, he'll improve greatly and rather quickly.

      You need to be consistent and not just try this and then go back to your old style of riding.

      That does not mean you let your horses head stay low, it means he picks his head up, but also keeps his back raised.

      You'll get it and lose it lots of times, but progress is what you are after, building muscle structure.
      http://community.webshots.com/user/summitspringsfarm

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by englishivy View Post
        Come play with us! I am looking for a late Jan/early Feb clinic at my farm!!

        She also goes to Four Seasons Farm with Kat DeMas Mulkey quite often, and she is in Madison too. Much less of a trek for you (but we are fun and well worth the drive )
        Have y'all set a date? This thread makes me really want to ride with her ASAP.

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Summit Springs Farm View Post

          That does not mean you let your horses head stay low, it means he picks his head up, but also keeps his back raised.

          You'll get it and lose it lots of times, but progress is what you are after, building muscle structure.
          This is also what the dressage trainer in the video said. You raise the poll and if the back hollows than you let him lower his head again. The horse can't raise his head and stay round through the back without the necessary musculature.

          Comment


          • #65
            Date is set!

            Originally posted by OveroHunter View Post
            Have y'all set a date? This thread makes me really want to ride with her ASAP.

            She is coming our way Sat Feb 18th, weather permitting (which I am starting to feel is more like "god willing"...what is the up with this weather! )

            Anyone who would like to audit is welcome to come out; we usually do some sort of pot-luck hang out, so if you want to eat you have to bring something to share . You can PM me for more info.
            www.englishivyfarms.com
            Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
            All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown

            Comment


            • #66
              I have to chime in. My initial reaction to this video (not knowing anything about Anne) was that I cannot comprehend anyone being a good/knowledgeable trainer who lets a horse poke around like this one. FORWARD is the most basic principle -- whether hunters or dressage. And, I really doubt whether her version of "long and low" is likely to result in ANY changes to the horse's musculature if his hind end isn't being asked to work AT ALL. Quite honestly I felt rather horrified, because I view this as such a tremendously basic point.

              Having now looked at some pictures (posted on this thread) of horses that have been in training with Anne, that appear to be going well, and have correct musculature -- I felt quite a bit more comforted.

              But -- I would not put that training video on my website. Perhaps I really don't understand what she's doing. True, if your choice is to have a lazy/pokey horse with his head up, or a lazy pokey horse with his head down -- I'd choose the latter. But that seems like minimal progress to me. I cannot understand why she wouldn't ask the rider to at least urge him on.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by fatappy View Post
                Someone more educated than me, please, enlighten.

                Everyone keeps saying slow: Slow the walk to the pace that they can carry. If I slow my ottb then I end up like the horse was in the beginning of the video. Inverted, head up, tounge out, etc. I am not saying my horse can't be slowed down, I guess what I am trying to say is if i hold her at slow, she gets tight. So my question is, are we looking for slow, or what the horse is comfortable with? And also, if you only go at the pace your horse can carry, how do they build up? Do you continue to ask them to keep stepping forward? If so when do you know if your horse is competent at this pace, time to ask for more?

                Sorry for all the questions. I am intrigued by this. I have trained with eventers that push into the bridle and that didn't fit well with my OTTB. So we have geared down and are working on slowing down her body to slow down her mind and this would be great for her to work on!
                The key is to slow the horse down from your seat, not your hand.

                Of course, horses aren't born knowing how to respond to a seat aid, so you have to teach them. And to teach them, you help him understand with your hand.

                So.
                Firstly, I think for whatever psychological reason the trot walk transition is easier for the horse than the walk halt. So pick up a trot, sit and "hold" him slower, and expect a walk.
                You won't get one, because he doesn't know yet, so after a stride or two of seat-request, use your hand along with the seat to slow him to a walk, then a halt, then gently back two steps.
                Repeat until you can get the walk transition without using your hand (if you get a walk without any hand, there is no need to halt and back. This is part of the reward for getting it right.)
                Do this over and over -so, 10 or 15 steps of trot only at a time before you ask again for a walk. Then three or four steps of walk and then 10 or 15 steps of trot to start the teaching process again.


                Now that he understands the basic mechanics of a "seat-whoa", ride him and monitor very closely whether he is "under your seat" or barging out ahead of your seat into your hand. If you feel him "get past your seat" even a step, do a seat-whoa and if you don't get an answer immediately back it up with hand. Eventually you will feel when he starts to rush out from underneath you within the gait, and you can ask him to "hold up, stay here with me" with a seat-whoa for a stride.

                It is very important to let him make the mistake, rather than trying to prevent them. Trying to prevent a horse from going too fast just means you constantly ride with the hand brake on. Like you said, if you "hold her at slow"...
                Don't hold her at slow: LET HER get quick for a step and then CORRECT it, she will learn to maintain the proper pace on her own.

                Once you have this level of control of the pace FROM YOUR SEAT, you can let go with your hands and send him forward into freedom (or into a positive, flowing contact) instead of a pace-monitoring hand.
                The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by rileyt View Post
                  FORWARD is the most basic principle -- whether hunters or dressage.
                  It is also the most misunderstood basic principle.
                  At a lot of stages of training, a too-forward ride is just rushing.

                  When I came out of hunter world into dressage with my hair all on fire about "FORWARD!" the clinicians were constantly telling me to slow the eff down and let the horse learn to engage and carry.

                  You CAN NOT engage a horse if the front end is running away from the hind.

                  I heard it over and over again from every. single. trainer. and they were right.
                  The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                  Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                  Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                  The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by rileyt View Post
                    I have to chime in. My initial reaction to this video (not knowing anything about Anne) was that I cannot comprehend anyone being a good/knowledgeable trainer who lets a horse poke around like this one. FORWARD is the most basic principle -- whether hunters or dressage. And, I really doubt whether her version of "long and low" is likely to result in ANY changes to the horse's musculature if his hind end isn't being asked to work AT ALL. Quite honestly I felt rather horrified, because I view this as such a tremendously basic point.

                    Having now looked at some pictures (posted on this thread) of horses that have been in training with Anne, that appear to be going well, and have correct musculature -- I felt quite a bit more comforted.

                    But -- I would not put that training video on my website. Perhaps I really don't understand what she's doing. True, if your choice is to have a lazy/pokey horse with his head up, or a lazy pokey horse with his head down -- I'd choose the latter. But that seems like minimal progress to me. I cannot understand why she wouldn't ask the rider to at least urge him on.

                    She does not advocate pokey. She advocates slow feet which allow the horse to learn how/where to put feet and then pick up the pace as the horse strengthens and is more educated. You have to stablilize the horse first, then ask it to carry itself.

                    Most of the horses we deal with are rushing on the forehand (cause the riders with pokey forehand horses don't always know there is a problem....slow=safe and correct, right ). At the beginning stages of the reschool, if you ask for more pace, the horse will revert to old habits and get rushy on the forehand. Which leads to rider holding with their hands. Which leads to horse very on forehand. And we are back at square one.

                    If you aren't clear on why she goes slow at first, I highly suggest you send her an email to better discuss what she teaches. I can PM her email to you. Or you can watch the video about building topline in the other thread. The only true difference is the pace (she prefers slow at first, and they have more pace) but the concept is the same.

                    It is a very old method that, as others have said, has become a lost art.

                    And to throw some names out there, she trained and worked with both Holly (Hayes) Orlando and Laura Kent Kraut throughout their junior careers. She has told me first hand that these techniques were used to reschool a pony Laura had as a child. So it can't all be crazy
                    www.englishivyfarms.com
                    Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
                    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                      It is also the most misunderstood basic principle.
                      At a lot of stages of training, a too-forward ride is just rushing.

                      When I came out of hunter world into dressage with my hair all on fire about "FORWARD!" the clinicians were constantly telling me to slow the eff down and let the horse learn to engage and carry.

                      You CAN NOT engage a horse if the front end is running away from the hind.

                      I heard it over and over again from every. single. trainer. and they were right.
                      This is for sure! Forward should mean more energy and perhaps larger length of stride. But with control of your tempo. My horse is balanced and strong enough that our forward now is far different from what our forward was when I got him two years ago - and while he was learning to have some movement in his back too much forward would have just been running him onto his nose. He built the strength where he picked himself up as I pushed him to the edge of what forward he could do and he learned to use his haunches/bend his hocks more.
                      If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
                      -meupatdoes

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                        The key is to slow the horse down from your seat, not your hand.

                        Of course, horses aren't born knowing how to respond to a seat aid, so you have to teach them. And to teach them, you help him understand with your hand.

                        So.
                        Firstly, I think for whatever psychological reason the trot walk transition is easier for the horse than the walk halt. So pick up a trot, sit and "hold" him slower, and expect a walk.
                        You won't get one, because he doesn't know yet, so after a stride or two of seat-request, use your hand along with the seat to slow him to a walk, then a halt, then gently back two steps.
                        Repeat until you can get the walk transition without using your hand (if you get a walk without any hand, there is no need to halt and back. This is part of the reward for getting it right.)
                        Do this over and over -so, 10 or 15 steps of trot only at a time before you ask again for a walk. Then three or four steps of walk and then 10 or 15 steps of trot to start the teaching process again.


                        Now that he understands the basic mechanics of a "seat-whoa", ride him and monitor very closely whether he is "under your seat" or barging out ahead of your seat into your hand. If you feel him "get past your seat" even a step, do a seat-whoa and if you don't get an answer immediately back it up with hand. Eventually you will feel when he starts to rush out from underneath you within the gait, and you can ask him to "hold up, stay here with me" with a seat-whoa for a stride.

                        It is very important to let him make the mistake, rather than trying to prevent them. Trying to prevent a horse from going too fast just means you constantly ride with the hand brake on. Like you said, if you "hold her at slow"...
                        Don't hold her at slow: LET HER get quick for a step and then CORRECT it, she will learn to maintain the proper pace on her own.

                        Once you have this level of control of the pace FROM YOUR SEAT, you can let go with your hands and send him forward into freedom (or into a positive, flowing contact) instead of a pace-monitoring hand.
                        I use a trememdous amout of groundwork to establish that a walk transistion (or halt for that matter) comes from my voice, which I feel is the most accurate aid you can have. Riders can use the wrong amout of leg, or too much hand, or lean forward when they mean to stretch up....but nobody says "haul ass" when they mean "whoa".

                        I teach re-schools or youngstock that when I say "whoa" and take a huge breath, we relax into a downward. It starts with hand walking, moves into on the lunge line and ground driving, and then into the saddle. So I don't even need the hand that much from the start, and the horse learns to regulate pace/transistions from my body language. And then I start to back off and allow them to hold pace on their own. (the beginnings of stabilization!)
                        www.englishivyfarms.com
                        Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
                        All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          I've come late to this, and need to go carve the mud off my terra cotta covered Dutchman to make a lesson...

                          I'm surprised at the folks that don't understand self carriage and stabilization.

                          As englishivy says, it is a very old method. Littauer explains it well in his book, Schooling Your Horse.

                          The Old Dead Cavalry Guys still have it right after all these years.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Hmmmm... While I recognize that many confuse rushing with "forward", that doesn't seem to be this particular horse's problem. Again -- based on pictures I've seen of OTHER horses, I'm not going to question Ms. Kenan's methods TOO much. And I get the idea of stabilization.

                            But, for me, if the horse isn't pushing off his hind end, it's all for naught. I don't believe all the slow work in the world will develop the horse's strength (and topline) if there isn't enough forward thrust to get the back up.

                            It sounds like there is much more to this trainer's credentials and knowledge than what I see in this video. So perhaps it would be a more successful ad if she showed the same horse in her system 3 months later. What I see in this one video does not impress me.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              rileyt,
                              I don't know where you got the idea, that Ann did not want the horse to use his hind end, that's exactly what she does want, the horse tracking up from behind going, round moving through himself for self carriage, not using the reins to carry him.
                              The slow part, the way I think of it, is the same idea as when a person lifts weights, you are supposed to go slow for max effect.
                              http://community.webshots.com/user/summitspringsfarm

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                To me this is just another tool for the training tool box which should be large enough to include many techniques.

                                I find it easiest for the horse to start on the ground by first making sure the horse can: lift his back and withers, arch his neck and tuck his pelvis. If the horse cannot do these things without a rider it silly, to me, to try to get them under saddle.

                                I include TTEAM ground driving which teaches the horse to correctly shift his balance to his hindquarters from a signal on the chest. Then I use leading and lunging exercises with a low head (I do not own side reins.) This encourages the horse to lengthen his top line.

                                Since I am often reschooling OTTBs I usually have much work to do on re-educating their mouths so I use a balance rein around the base of the neck which serves to rebalance them and slow them while lengthening the top line. I'll use a hackamore or side pull frequently in the beginning which eliminates incorrect responses to the bit until I have the rest of the body where I want it then I will go back to the bit. I do different things with different horses and don't rely on one technique.

                                Teaching the horse to stretch into contact, to me, is most effective in lengthening the top line. Lateral work then increases strength and carrying ability.

                                I have used the technique shown in the video (I call it half trot and half walk) with some horses but this often comes well after the other work. I use these to help relax and soften some horses and to get them what I call, "drapy." I may alternate this with more forward and forward and down. By "down" I mean into contact with a connection all the way "through."

                                Like I said, it is just one technique and a good trainer should have many.

                                Comment


                                • #76
                                  It is honestly getting a little depressing to read all of this extensive debate and analysis as if the ability to ride a horse in a controlled and relaxed manner in the very most preliminary state of carriage is some sort of revolutionary never-before-seen skill.

                                  But I guess on a forum where dressage is regularly dismissed as being detrimental to hunters, not surprising.
                                  The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                                  Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                                  Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                                  The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                                  Comment


                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by meupatdoes View Post
                                    It is honestly getting a little depressing to read all of this extensive debate and analysis as if the ability to ride a horse in a controlled and relaxed manner in the very most preliminary state of carriage is some sort of revolutionary never-before-seen skill.

                                    But I guess on a forum where dressage is regularly dismissed as being detrimental to hunters, not surprising.
                                    Well, I agree that it is depressing.....but it is not from this discussion. It is depressing seeing horses inverted and incorrect, not just at a local level, but at all levels of showing. Some of them even have high price tags. Usually, the owners don't have a clue; sometimes the trainers don't have a clue!

                                    I don't find this discussion depressing at all. I find it great that many people are asking about, and trying to understand, a training concept that produces correct horses of quality. It makes for better riders and better horses.

                                    We constantly complain that the next generation of riders lack the skills, and we as a nation lack the horse flesh, to be serious international competitiors. But if we don't take the time to discuss how to do it, how are they to ever learn?
                                    www.englishivyfarms.com
                                    Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
                                    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown

                                    Comment


                                    • #78
                                      Originally posted by englishivy View Post
                                      Well, I agree that it is depressing.....but it is not from this discussion. It is depressing seeing horses inverted and incorrect, not just at a local level, but at all levels of showing. Some of them even have high price tags. Usually, the owners don't have a clue; sometimes the trainers don't have a clue!

                                      I don't find this discussion depressing at all. I find it great that many people are asking about, and trying to understand, a training concept that produces correct horses of quality. It makes for better riders and better horses.

                                      We constantly complain that the next generation of riders lack the skills, and we as a nation lack the horse flesh, to be serious international competitiors. But if we don't take the time to discuss how to do it, how are they to ever learn?
                                      Well, a commitment to regular dressage lessons would go quite a long way to clearing up the big mystery. It is not a lost art or revolutionary exhalted skill that only lives on in rare trainers and is barely ever taught anymore, it is right across the road in the dressage barn nearest you. Riders who want to learn it will go find a dressage trainer to teach it to them if for whatever reason their hunter trainer (who should probably be re-evaluated if this is the case) can't or won't teach them.

                                      I agree with you that what is out there sometimes -especially the ignorance of paid professionals- can be infuriating.
                                      Last edited by meupatdoes; Jan. 14, 2012, 12:50 AM.
                                      The Noodlehttp://tiny.cc/NGKmT&http://tiny.cc/gioSA
                                      Jinxyhttp://tiny.cc/PIC798&http://tiny.cc/jinx364
                                      Boy Wonderhttp://tiny.cc/G9290
                                      The Hana is nuts! NUTS!!http://tinyurl.com/SOCRAZY

                                      Comment


                                      • #79
                                        It does not help the horses any that all anyone wants to do is jump, jump, jump. It's the culture at my barn. I wish it were possible to explain the beauty of riding a horse that is connected back to front, or the thrill of feeling that the horse is giving you his back, but that is really boring stuff to most people, and it's a shame.
                                        2012 goal: learn to ride like a Barn Rat

                                        A helmet saved my life.

                                        Comment


                                        • #80
                                          Oh I disagree that dressage lessons are right across the street from you! Their are what they think is dressage but from what I've seen around here not so much.
                                          Case in point a was asked to get on a dressage horse by a lady I really didn't know well and her horse had no idea what leg was and he was 8 years old.
                                          I think the problem is people don't realize that it's a process, they think they can get on a horse,kick him up into the bit,and viola your have a horse who accepts the bit carried himself and is back to front. That is a forced frame,IMHO.
                                          If you do the slow work, build up the muscles you can move into a horse who is capable of carrying you,round and is on contact, but it takes time, not forced every ride until he works up the muscles that way and goes around disengaged because the muscles you developed were done so through a short muscle frame work, not long and slow.imho
                                          http://community.webshots.com/user/summitspringsfarm

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