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thoughts on this training concept?

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  • #41
    Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
    I dont really consider it long and low. IMO its a mobilization technique. It teaches the horse to relax, to balance, to use their back, the correct response to the leg and most importantly, to chase the bit. It sets up the basis for the horses relationship with the hand and the leg.

    You can do it with more or less contact *as long as the horse is making the contact* not the rider. I call it Pre-Ssage versus Dressage LOL

    Having done this exact technique (as taught to me by Anne) on many, many horses, both youngstock starting out and re-schools of incorrect upsided down ones, I can say with certainty that EqTrainer's description is the winner!

    The term is also called "stabilization".

    Stabilization is the precurser to a horse riding in to the bridle/on the bit/into your hand/etc. Until a horse is stabilized, moves off your leg, and seeks the bit, adding a rein aid will only interfere with the horse's ability to use himself correctly. Horses that are ridden the other way around (rein aid to slow, leg is dropped to brace against the broken up motion of the held body, horse relies on you for balance) are ridden "backwards", ridden hand to leg instead of leg to hand. I've just recently heard the phrase "bringing the bit to the horse instead of the horse to the bit" which is a nice visual.

    This program is also endorsed by the American National Riding System (ANRC) that was founded by many of our well respected national riders, including Joe Fargis. Their DVD set with workbooks has some wonderful exercises. If someone lives in an area that doesn't have access to a trainer that teaches stabilization, you can use the DVD system to get started; I don't know how far along it can take you.

    To the OP: There have been many people on this thread (at least 6, I think) who can give you first hand success of this program. There are many more who agree this is an old technique that produces results. I say give it a try and see what happens; what have you got to lose?
    www.englishivyfarms.com
    Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by EqTrainer View Post
      I dont really consider it long and low. IMO its a mobilization technique. It teaches the horse to relax, to balance, to use their back, the correct response to the leg and most importantly, to chase the bit. It sets up the basis for the horses relationship with the hand and the leg.

      You can do it with more or less contact *as long as the horse is making the contact* not the rider. I call it Pre-Ssage versus Dressage LOL
      I love that. Pre-Ssage. I think it's an appropriate term and expression for getting some basics about body carriage in for a horse prior to working on increased engagement/collection/contact/etc. to move up levels.
      If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
      -meupatdoes

      Comment


      • #43
        I was corrected in an email by Ann, so I wanted to share witth you all. This is from Ann K:

        Mornin' I love that this has sparked so much conversation and for the most part showing we indeed have horsemen (women) out there. I want to share a difference of view point with you in regards to side reins.For me they are to show the way to straightness and proper yielding to the bit.The bend you refer to actually is created by moving the horse's energy from the inside hindleg to the outside rein, at this point if he is truly between your leg and seat you can let go of the insde rein and ride your horse off your legs and outside rein.This is the exercise that I spoke to you about before you left town. At Kat's clinic everyone practiced this on a circle and ultimately were able to do it;some walk,trot and canter,a few I didn't push the envelope and only did walk and trot. I do not believe the side reins are for bending.
        The sun is illusively shining;it's damn cold.Talk later have a great day!

        SO I stand corrected about the use of side reins. Thanks Ann!
        http://community.webshots.com/user/summitspringsfarm

        Comment


        • #44
          Very timely...

          This is exactly what I needed to read about! I just recently moved my horse out of a training barn to a private boarding facility. I have been wanting to find a way to get him to relax, stretch, and lift through his back... This seems to be an interesting avenue to take. Can anyone give suggestions on reading or exercises to start working towards this?

          I tried it last night and don't really understand the "slow" part of this. He will stretch for the bit at the walk and generally over-tracks; I can feel his back lifting. At the trot I had maybe 2-3 steps of the same thing then head back up, etc. I just kept working on thinking about slow... Slow post, slow leg, just don't know if I am doing it right

          Could one of you who has worked with Anne give me a list of some pointers? How slow is slow?

          I do think I need to send a video in, but need to find someone who can video me

          Thanks in advance! I really appreciate all the conversation on this topic.

          Comment


          • #45
            I want to try to broaden the scope of thought on this topic so that those with an interest might include some of the similar methods and practices into their evaluation of this overall concept in riding.

            Below are simply some material that I put together that may hopefully cause some to think differently about some things in a helpful way.

            Note that I'm not intending to make any specific point about any one variety of technique in comparison to any other, just offering a range of material that I feel may have some relevance to this topic in general.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poFr5Xz5uU0

            (Point of interest begins at the 30 seconds into the video, look for the flying change) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtJ04...eature=related

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JB69lXpaM4

            http://www.artofriding.com/articles/longandlow.html

            http://www.horse-sense.org/archives/longlow.php

            http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/Dingo...ongAndLow.html

            http://www.horsekeeping.com/horse_ri...evelopment.htm

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmgMqCBFQJE

            http://www.unce.unr.edu/publications...her/fs9608.pdf

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by kbrethauer View Post
              This is exactly what I needed to read about! I just recently moved my horse out of a training barn to a private boarding facility. I have been wanting to find a way to get him to relax, stretch, and lift through his back... This seems to be an interesting avenue to take. Can anyone give suggestions on reading or exercises to start working towards this?

              I tried it last night and don't really understand the "slow" part of this. He will stretch for the bit at the walk and generally over-tracks; I can feel his back lifting. At the trot I had maybe 2-3 steps of the same thing then head back up, etc. I just kept working on thinking about slow... Slow post, slow leg, just don't know if I am doing it right

              Could one of you who has worked with Anne give me a list of some pointers? How slow is slow?

              I do think I need to send a video in, but need to find someone who can video me

              Thanks in advance! I really appreciate all the conversation on this topic.
              Definitely send Anne a video, she will walk you through the concept of slow work, literally. She will give you homework and reading suggestions.

              What you are seeing in the training video is just a small piece of one session, not a finished product. Slow isn't just poking around like a trail horse (no offense intended to trail horses) it is an exercise that strengthens muscle, improves balance, and promotes relaxation. Thumbs up to you for going out and trying it, as you see it is a bit more challenging than it looks. It's as much mental as it is physical, for both you and your horse.
              Give her a call, she is really fun to work with.

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by kelsey97 View Post
                Definitely send Anne a video, she will walk you through the concept of slow work, literally. She will give you homework and reading suggestions.

                What you are seeing in the training video is just a small piece of one session, not a finished product. Slow isn't just poking around like a trail horse (no offense intended to trail horses) it is an exercise that strengthens muscle, improves balance, and promotes relaxation. Thumbs up to you for going out and trying it, as you see it is a bit more challenging than it looks. It's as much mental as it is physical, for both you and your horse.
                Give her a call, she is really fun to work with.
                Thanks for the info and encouragement. I am pretty excited to be working with my boy on my own. I will definitely give her a ring and start the process...

                Comment


                • #48
                  Anne does clinics occasionally in Alpharetta in case this thread has sparked anyone's interest I am definitely going to make it down there some day

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by OveroHunter View Post
                    Anne does clinics occasionally in Alpharetta in case this thread has sparked anyone's interest I am definitely going to make it down there some day
                    Come play with us! I am looking for a late Jan/early Feb clinic at my farm!!

                    She also goes to Four Seasons Farm with Kat DeMas Mulkey quite often, and she is in Madison too. Much less of a trek for you (but we are fun and well worth the drive )
                    www.englishivyfarms.com
                    Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
                    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by kbrethauer View Post
                      Thanks for the info and encouragement. I am pretty excited to be working with my boy on my own. I will definitely give her a ring and start the process...
                      Good for you! It can be very rewarding to go solo, but very nice to have someone you can count on for help and encouragement when you get stuck.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        #51
                        Thank you for all the information and discussion! It has given me a lot to think about and a lot of interesting things to try! Between this and the GM Horsemastership clinic we are all getting a good basics schooling this week on COTH!

                        Comment


                        • #52
                          Originally posted by englishivy View Post
                          Come play with us! I am looking for a late Jan/early Feb clinic at my farm!!

                          She also goes to Four Seasons Farm with Kat DeMas Mulkey quite often, and she is in Madison too. Much less of a trek for you (but we are fun and well worth the drive )
                          I want to soon! Alex at Hunter Valley Farms and I grew up riding together and she raves about Anne

                          Comment


                          • #53
                            Originally posted by OveroHunter View Post
                            I want to soon! Alex at Hunter Valley Farms and I grew up riding together and she raves about Anne
                            I love Alex! Super sweet young lady (um, girl...don't know what to call her as she isn't that much younger than me )

                            Did you go to her wedding last May? I was there; I actually carpooled with Anne.

                            Either at my place or Alex's, we should meet at the next clinic....it's neat to meet a COTHer in person!
                            www.englishivyfarms.com
                            Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
                            All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown

                            Comment


                            • #54
                              Anne was at our farm today, and said she was very glad to hear about the discussions we've had!!
                              http://community.webshots.com/user/summitspringsfarm

                              Comment


                              • #55
                                Just a couple comments from all angles. And I apologize in advance if I'm repeating, a skimmed a couple comments.

                                First, I think this looks great for a horse that starts behind the leg. I'd like to see how this technique is modified for a horse that runs away from the leg. For example, I've known many a hot horse (including my own) that will run away at the walk. Could someone explain how riding with no contact would help?

                                Second I saw a few comments about saddle horse breeds (freisians/saddlebreds). A correctly trained saddleseat horse will actually lower their hind end as the engage their backs and elevate into a trot. So yes they are high headed, but if correctly trained (which is rare!!) they are expected to come through the back and to the bit.

                                Also, there seems to be a bit of discussion on the ability for a horse to truly be through and correct with no contact. Take a look at a top reining horse. They are balanced and able to use there body and hind end to correctly move and execute things such as changes. While different from dressage, I would definitely say they must be engaged in the hind end and through their back, all with no contact.

                                Anyway, just my thoughts and experiences.

                                Comment


                                • #56
                                  I thought I would post a recent picture of Sammy. He is 4, coming 5 and we backed him with Anne's help at 3. He has muscled up through his topline and learned how to carry himself by her riding the hind end, not the front end. They are developing a true connection.

                                  http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/Desilu/trot.jpg
                                  Member of the Redheads with Redheads clique.
                                  I have a blog about Sammy: http://www.sammyssaga.blogspot.com/

                                  Comment


                                  • #57
                                    Originally posted by desilu View Post
                                    I thought I would post a recent picture of Sammy. He is 4, coming 5 and we backed him with Anne's help at 3. He has muscled up through his topline and learned how to carry himself by her riding the hind end, not the front end. They are developing a true connection.

                                    http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y101/Desilu/trot.jpg
                                    Oooooo.... If he's goes missing you may want to check my backyard

                                    englishivy - I was supposed to be at her wedding but I missed it because of a last minute emergency. If you ever have a little too much time on your hands check out her facebook video entitled "The date we worked harder than the horses." Man, I miss college! I'm the one on the grey that isn't Captain.

                                    Comment


                                    • #58
                                      Originally posted by JustMyStyle View Post
                                      First, I think this looks great for a horse that starts behind the leg. I'd like to see how this technique is modified for a horse that runs away from the leg. For example, I've known many a hot horse (including my own) that will run away at the walk. Could someone explain how riding with no contact would help?
                                      I think they key here is the disobedience to the leg. Behind, running away - they are not accepting it. This is a great way to work with an OTTB. If you can get them to slow their steps, then keep the contact properly as a rider, then add leg - the back will usually come up, and they can move on from pre-dresssage The key being you are not really focusing on the contact, it's just there for them to find.

                                      On the USEF GM clinic Beezie bridged her reins so she didn't interfere with her hands. This is obviously a great way to go about it. I've also put both reins in the outside hand and gave reassuring pats with the inside for a particularly fussy horse (mine!), a technique taught by another Olympian.

                                      Actually, though a big different than the long & low - her 'clinic' was a great example on how to work with a fussy horse running from the leg.

                                      Comment


                                      • #59
                                        Someone more educated than me, please, enlighten.

                                        Everyone keeps saying slow: Slow the walk to the pace that they can carry. If I slow my ottb then I end up like the horse was in the beginning of the video. Inverted, head up, tounge out, etc. I am not saying my horse can't be slowed down, I guess what I am trying to say is if i hold her at slow, she gets tight. So my question is, are we looking for slow, or what the horse is comfortable with? And also, if you only go at the pace your horse can carry, how do they build up? Do you continue to ask them to keep stepping forward? If so when do you know if your horse is competent at this pace, time to ask for more?

                                        Sorry for all the questions. I am intrigued by this. I have trained with eventers that push into the bridle and that didn't fit well with my OTTB. So we have geared down and are working on slowing down her body to slow down her mind and this would be great for her to work on!

                                        Comment


                                        • #60
                                          trying to slow it down

                                          I love this video, and the one that was posted yesterday about the dressage trainer in San Diego (forget his name) demonstrating the long and low concept and lifting of the horses back.

                                          My horse loves to stretch down at the walk, sometimes so much that he'll pull the reins from me at a walk to stretch down. Obv it feels good to him. Lately we have been doing a lot of work at the trot to get him to lower his head and work more from his hindquarters. He's doing well, now that i've figured out what makes him tick. I little massaging of the reins, growing lighter as he accepts the bit more and pushing him forward from the leg. He's not green and knows how to do it, just really needs to be 'asked' properly. After 6 months i finally 'get it'.

                                          But, last night i tried to see what he would do on a very loose rein at the trot to see if he would stretch downward. No dice, he just went faster and faster with his head raised. He is very sensitive and takes very little leg and maybe was confused after working so much with a lot more contact.

                                          What are your guys' thoughts on this? Is walking in the stretchy long and low position enough, or is it desirable to get them to trot this way too? He just seems impatient.
                                          I wish he could manage to slow it down like the horse featured in his video!

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