Sport Horse Spotlight

Feinrich-Nr_1-12-18-10-074 Beelitz

Real Estate Spotlight

Driveway

Sale Spotlight

COTH_without Subscribe
  • Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You�re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the Forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it�details of personal disputes may be better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts, though are not legally obligated to do so, regardless of content.

Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting. Moderators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts unless they have been alerted and have determined that a post, thread or user has violated the Forums� policies. Moderators do not regularly independently monitor the Forums for such violations.

Profanity, outright vulgarity, blatant personal insults or otherwise inappropriate statements will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

Users may provide their positive or negative experiences with or opinions of companies, products, individuals, etc.; however, accounts involving allegations of criminal behavior against named individuals or companies MUST be first-hand accounts and may NOT be made anonymously.

If a situation has been reported upon by a reputable news source or addressed by law enforcement or the legal system it is open for discussion, but if an individual wants to make their own claims of criminal behavior against a named party in the course of that discussion, they too must identify themselves by first and last name and the account must be first-person.

Criminal allegations that do not satisfy these requirements, when brought to our attention, may be removed pending satisfaction of these criteria, and we reserve the right to err on the side of caution when making these determinations.

Credible threats of suicide will be reported to the police along with identifying user information at our disposal, in addition to referring the user to suicide helpline resources such as 1-800-SUICIDE or 1-800-273-TALK.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it�s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users� profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses � Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it�s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who�s selling it, it doesn�t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions � Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services � Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products � While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements � Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be �bumped� excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues � Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators� discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the �alert� button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your �Ignore� list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you�d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user�s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 5/9/18)
See more
See less

thoughts on this training concept?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #21
    Originally posted by Summit Springs Farm View Post
    The key, for us, have been a well established walk, honestly, reinforced by spending the time walking correctly every single ride, not rushing off to establish the correctness at the trot, like so many riders do.
    They'll wander around the ring, then get to work at the trot.

    Everything goes better once the correct walk is established, head and shoulder swinging, slow feet and working back to front. Every ride.
    Back in the day, thats what trail riding did for our horses. Gets the correct muscle structure, long and low.

    Time frame is dependent on consistency first, frequency and quality of rides. I've seen many a horse get correct durring one ride by Ann.
    But to be stuck on his hocks, slow footed. working back to front is a every single ride kinda ride, every time, regardless.
    He will get stronger with every ride. Seek the earth and then come into the bridle.
    Its a dressage type of ride, and how long does that take to correctly get a horse on the bit?
    Agreed.

    We also do a tremendous amount of walk work at the start of the reschool.

    I read somewhere that Jimmy Wofford said something along the lines that the "walk creates strength, the trot creates power, and the canter creates speed". This was in reference to Eventing, but I believe there is some truth to it. A great walk is so important, but all too often under valued.
    www.englishivyfarms.com
    Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown

    Comment


    • #22
      I agree with all the positive comments. It is how we train and retrain every horse. The only sad thing is, it is becoming a lost art.

      The reason the horse appears to be under tempo is because the rider is not asking him to carry more than he can push. He can stay in balance at this tempo, so that is the correct tempo for him right now. More forward will come as he builds more strength and can carry as much as he pushes. IF she asked him to be more forward, he would not be able to carry it, and therefore run onto his forehand. Forward is a seriously misunderstood word. Balance would be a better one to focus initially, IMO.

      The back is key. Without developing relaxation and strength in the back the horse never can carry his own body or that of a rider comfortably. This is not really a "training concept" its just the basics.
      "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
      ---
      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by RAyers View Post
        This is a classical dressage technique to get a horse to come over their back and open up the step, called "uberstreichen"
        Uberstreichen is a TEST of throughness and self carriage, not a training technique to encourage or discourage anything. Uberstreichen is the release of the inside rein, or both reins for 1-2 strides only.
        www.destinationconsensusequus.com
        chaque pas est fait ensemble

        Comment


        • #24
          My horse would get tight in his shoulders and try to walk over his front end if you asked him to walk too quickly. Long, low and slow at the walk really helped him to relax and start working off his haunches and using his back. He spent a lot of time last winter in this type of program trying to build up his topline. It has been a slow progression, but I would say it took him a good six months or so to develop the strength to consistently track up and keep his shoulders loose. Over the past few months, I have noticed that he is swinging a lot more freely from the shoulders and has more suspension in his step. His trot has always been a bit hard to sit, but it is pretty difficult now. I would also say that I have also noticed his canter becoming a lot more balanced and powerful over the past few months. This horse is probably on the slower side to develop. Each horse is an individual, so it is really hard give a timeline.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by Petstorejunkie View Post
            Uberstreichen is a TEST of throughness and self carriage, not a training technique to encourage or discourage anything. Uberstreichen is the release of the inside rein, or both reins for 1-2 strides only.
            "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
            ---
            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

            Comment


            • #26
              [QUOTE=netg;6059250]Unfortunately, on the dressage board most posters would say you can't give up the contact, and just stick the horse in side reins to develop correct muscling.

              We don't use side reins to develop muscles, however we use side reins for bending exercises, we use one at a time on the inside rein, occasionally.

              Nor do we give up contact, to fully understand contact you have to understand feel.
              Contact is relative to the development of the training of the horse. The horse must move back to front, to allow you to maintain a feel. IE a semblance of contact.
              A horse that is underneath you, light in your hands and carrying himself is a wonderful thing.
              http://community.webshots.com/user/summitspringsfarm

              Comment


              • #27
                Originally posted by Summit Springs Farm View Post
                We don't use side reins to develop muscles, however we use side reins for bending exercises, we use one at a time on the inside rein, occasionally.

                Nor do we give up contact, to fully understand contact you have to understand feel.
                Contact is relative to the development of the training of the horse. The horse must move back to front, to allow you to maintain a feel. IE a semblance of contact.
                A horse that is underneath you, light in your hands and carrying himself is a wonderful thing.
                Oh, I believe they can be useful. And agree with you in regards to contact. I just know whenever someone discusses working with a horse who has any type of retraining needed the general responses are to get contact and only let them out as they'll reach for contact - rather than teaching them to use their bodies properly, and contact resulting from that and being appropriate to where they are.

                I believe from this thread I would very much love the way you train your horses!
                If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
                -meupatdoes

                Comment


                • #28
                  This is what I am doing with a horse that I am retraining. He was used as a lower level event horse but had absolutely no idea how to carry himself. We did a lot of hacking with his nose on the ground before I even asked him for anything. He simply didn't have a clue what to do without someone having a hold of his face.

                  Comment


                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Petstorejunkie View Post
                    Uberstreichen is a TEST of throughness and self carriage, not a training technique to encourage or discourage anything. Uberstreichen is the release of the inside rein, or both reins for 1-2 strides only.
                    I believe it's the only way to train. Without this there is no self carriage, IMHO.
                    I would also think in the video there is no contact because that, too, has to be taught to the rider. Better no contact when starting than the wrong contact.....no seesaw, too tight rein. Correct stretching, with a rider in correct contact, is a hard concept when starting this....but once the rider/horse "get it" it's fantastic.

                    With Fudge, my new horse, he was such a good jumping horse that he was ridden basically to jump. We are working on building top line and long and low....he is loving it...except he is not strong enough to canter like that yet. It does take time and patience and we do not see enough of this in the H/J world anymore.
                    Adriane
                    Happily retired but used to be:
                    www.ParrotNutz.com

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      I've used long and low to train and condition a great deal. I think the key is in maintaining a sufficient level of engagement and balance, and not letting the horse fall on it's forehand.

                      A strung out horse ridden with no energy and on it's forehand, is not long and low.

                      Correct long and low can be a difficult accomplishment because the horse requires the ability to balance himself, and a degree of self carriage.

                      Aside from ring work, I think long and low combined with hill work make up two of the most useful exercises in a conditioning program.

                      I think long and low is also a very similar in concept to the frame developed for western pleasure. Not peanut rolling, but poll not lower than the withers, ridden with balance and a level of true engagement.

                      In a way I think of proper western pleasure to be something like slow motion dressage.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I too believe this is becoming a lost art. We have known Anne for many years and our first experience was with my daughters young TB. We were lucky that our then trainer fully subscribed to her methods and introduced us to them and to her. We watched him bloom from a pair of legs with withers to a very broad backed balance boy. His jump went from one where he jumped over himself to one where he can rock back and use his shoulders.
                        https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

                        I was thrilled when we were ready to back Sammy that she was willing to come down and get him started....and she has been down a couple times a year and is "on call" ever since. (I'm not sure she realized what a lifetime commitment she was making when she said she'd come down the first time) We'd be lost without her.

                        It is important to realize that the video you are watching is just the beginning of the journey.....and what a rewarding and fun journey it has proven to be.
                        Member of the Redheads with Redheads clique.
                        I have a blog about Sammy: http://www.sammyssaga.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          i just wanted to hop aboard and say that the estimable AK and i both grew up together with the late mrs. Peggy Touchstone as our instructor. when GM came to the farm for quarterly clinics he never griped about our flat work. ever.

                          it seems that old is new again!!!! my regards to ann.

                          Comment


                          • #33
                            You still need contact to do that type of work. Half halts are a must to rebalance otherwise the horse simply travels in the easiest posture... On the fronts
                            ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                            http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by alterhorse View Post
                              I've used long and low to train and condition a great deal. I think the key is in maintaining a sufficient level of engagement and balance, and not letting the horse fall on it's forehand.

                              A strung out horse ridden with no energy and on it's forehand, is not long and low.

                              Correct long and low can be a difficult accomplishment because the horse requires the ability to balance himself, and a degree of self carriage.

                              Aside from ring work, I think long and low combined with hill work make up two of the most useful exercises in a conditioning program.

                              I think long and low is also a very similar in concept to the frame developed for western pleasure. Not peanut rolling, but poll not lower than the withers, ridden with balance and a level of true engagement.

                              In a way I think of proper western pleasure to be something like slow motion dressage.
                              *puts on old fogie hat* Back in my day, I won regularly on a QH who had a true three-beat gait, just with the tempo desired of western pleasure horses. Because there was a true level of engagement he did very correct lead changes and I trained him up to two-tempis. But then again, if I wanted to fix his head position, I did shoulder-fore on a loose WP rein, and it got his back swinging, hind end re-engaged, and head went down.

                              Originally posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
                              You still need contact to do that type of work. Half halts are a must to rebalance otherwise the horse simply travels in the easiest posture... On the fronts
                              Contact of a sort - but not like many people on the dressage board will insist you must have. And the seat helps a lot there, too....
                              If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
                              -meupatdoes

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by rockfordbuckeye View Post
                                For those of you that mention you have done "re-training" in this method - how long do you generally feel it has taken to get a horse to accept going long and low when they have been being ridden inverted? How long do you feel it takes to re-muscle correctly?
                                I think Anne would tell you it takes as long as it takes I'm a relatively new disciple of Anne's, I just met her in person in November 2011. I worked with her for two consecutive days on a green youngster, well started, no major issues, and good work ethic. It took us about 2 weeks to "get it" at the trot, and we're still striving for consistency in all gaits. I think it would take longer to re-educate one with preconceived notions.

                                You have to understand the video is a single session, not an end product. The appearance of "laggy" gaits and "being on the forehand" is what Anne calls slow work, it is intentional. This slow work is necessary to build muscle and to foster a sense of relaxation, prerequisites to balance and self-carriage. The slow work also makes your horse really listen to you and wait for you to give direction, which leads ultimately to the coveted "push ride".

                                As for the lack of contact, it isn't no contact. Anne teaches "the illusion of contact", I just adore this concept and will not do it justice in this post. Light hands doesn't mean you are just throwing your horse away, you have your whole body and mind for contact.

                                Anne is a really wonderful, kind person, extremely knowledgeable, and most importantly: she loves horses.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  We started working with Anne in September w/our warmblood. All three of us -mother daughter and horse - were super frustrated. He had been tied down in draw reins, was strung out behind, tense, spooky, and jumped like a duck when he got too close to the base. In 4+ months with Anne's guidance and - doing exactly the types of things you see in the video - the change has been nothing short of amazing. Hard to believe that quiet, slow- footed, trotting could be so beneficial but we are believers now! Our horse is so much more relaxed, the spook is greatly diminished, he is using his head and neck and the head carraige is long and low and beautiful. His whole top line & muscling has dramatically improved. He can keep the bascule over the fence even when he gets close. When we started he couldn't hold the canter unless you held him up. Now he can canter in the field on a loose rein and he will him stretch down, use his head and neck, and rock back on his hocks when going down hill to self balance. Our horse's movement, attitude, and jumping form are all greatly improved. We have access to a large field with some some small hills and Anne strongly encouraged work outside the ring. We do a lot of slow work in the field - just like the slow work in the video - and this has really helped the development of balance and muscle development. Anne has taught my daughter how to get him on a rein, how to get her horse to stretch for her hand, how to better discipline her body to be centered and to visualize the results she wants. We still have work to do but the jouney with Anne is fun, productive and all three of us ( mother, daughter & horse) are much more relaxed. If you and your horse are at odds with each other, if your horse seems stiff & inverted then you need to get in touch with Anne for a clinic or send her a video for review.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    We started working with Anne in September w/our warmblood. All three of us -mother daughter and horse - were super frustrated. He had been tied down in draw reins, was strung out behind, tense, spooky, and jumped like a duck when he got too close to the base. In 4+ months with Anne's guidance and - doing exactly the types of things you see in the video - the change has been nothing short of amazing. Hard to believe that quiet, slow- footed, trotting could be so beneficial but we are believers now! Our horse is so much more relaxed, the spook is greatly diminished, he is using his head and neck and the head carraige is long and low and beautiful. His whole top line & muscling has dramatically improved. He can keep the bascule over the fence even when he gets close. When we started he couldn't hold the canter unless you held him up. Now he can canter in the field on a loose rein and he will him stretch down, use his head and neck, and rock back on his hocks when going down hill to self balance. Our horse's movement, attitude, and jumping form are all greatly improved. We have access to a large field with some some small hills and Anne strongly encouraged work outside the ring. We do a lot of slow work in the field - just like the slow work in the video - and this has really helped the development of balance and muscle development. Anne has taught my daughter how to get him on a rein, how to get her horse to stretch for her hand, how to better discipline her body to be centered and to visualize the results she wants. We still have work to do but the jouney with Anne is fun, productive and all three of us ( mother, daughter & horse) are much more relaxed. If you and your horse are at odds with each other, if your horse seems stiff & inverted then you need to get in touch with Anne for a clinic or send her a video for review.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      What is shown is NOT a traditional technique (that would be 'chewing the reins from the hand' in a forward/downward/outward direction. Correct fdo/long and low is a MOMENTARY test of whether the horse will actively seek the hand as the contact is lightened and it chews fdo. It is not something that is done for long periods of time, but rather a few times in a ride.

                                      Uberstreichen is a reward of/for self carriage once a horse has started light collection, and it is also a test (where the horse will remain up/open/collected/connected to the outside rein (and later giving both) and the rider reward this by giving the inside rein w/o changing the seat or their balance).

                                      This video merely shows a horse which is not connected to the hand at all after the beginning, but goes from being in a starting to accept the bit mildly, to working on a loose rein and being totally on the forehand. A horse will NOT show overstride when allowed to go on the forehand. And although a slightly slower tempo can allow the back to swing more, it will not do so with an excessively long outline with no connection.

                                      What is shown is NOT a proper training level outline (which should be rather up and very open), what is shown is no contact.
                                      I.D.E.A. yoda

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
                                        What is shown is NOT a traditional technique (that would be 'chewing the reins from the hand' in a forward/downward/outward direction. Correct fdo/long and low is a MOMENTARY test of whether the horse will actively seek the hand as the contact is lightened and it chews fdo. It is not something that is done for long periods of time, but rather a few times in a ride.

                                        Uberstreichen is a reward of/for self carriage once a horse has started light collection, and it is also a test (where the horse will remain up/open/collected/connected to the outside rein (and later giving both) and the rider reward this by giving the inside rein w/o changing the seat or their balance).

                                        This video merely shows a horse which is not connected to the hand at all after the beginning, but goes from being in a starting to accept the bit mildly, to working on a loose rein and being totally on the forehand. A horse will NOT show overstride when allowed to go on the forehand. And although a slightly slower tempo can allow the back to swing more, it will not do so with an excessively long outline with no connection.

                                        What is shown is NOT a proper training level outline (which should be rather up and very open), what is shown is no contact.
                                        I understand what you're saying, but it is possible to ride a horse with no contact from your center and seat, and still have "some" engagement and self carriage.

                                        If the horse ridden with no contact is trained to seek "connection" with the riders center, balance, and seat, the horse will carry itself in a "frame of anticipation" so that the horse may respond to the rider's center, balance, and seat aids, with little delay.

                                        That's the secret of long and low, the horse must carry itself in a frame in order to maintain it's own center in symmetry with the riders center. If the horse falls on his forehand the horse can't respond to the riders center. The horse must be willing to go long and low and want to listen to its rider. That's why long and low can sometimes be difficult to accomplish.

                                        I referenced a parallel to Western pleasure in my earlier post as another example of riding in a frame with "connection" but no contact.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          I dont really consider it long and low. IMO its a mobilization technique. It teaches the horse to relax, to balance, to use their back, the correct response to the leg and most importantly, to chase the bit. It sets up the basis for the horses relationship with the hand and the leg.

                                          You can do it with more or less contact *as long as the horse is making the contact* not the rider. I call it Pre-Ssage versus Dressage LOL
                                          "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                          ---
                                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

                                          Comment

                                          Working...
                                          X