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thoughts on this training concept?

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Summit Springs Farm View Post
    The key, for us, have been a well established walk, honestly, reinforced by spending the time walking correctly every single ride, not rushing off to establish the correctness at the trot, like so many riders do.
    They'll wander around the ring, then get to work at the trot.

    Everything goes better once the correct walk is established, head and shoulder swinging, slow feet and working back to front. Every ride.
    Back in the day, thats what trail riding did for our horses. Gets the correct muscle structure, long and low.

    Time frame is dependent on consistency first, frequency and quality of rides. I've seen many a horse get correct durring one ride by Ann.
    But to be stuck on his hocks, slow footed. working back to front is a every single ride kinda ride, every time, regardless.
    He will get stronger with every ride. Seek the earth and then come into the bridle.
    Its a dressage type of ride, and how long does that take to correctly get a horse on the bit?
    Agreed.

    We also do a tremendous amount of walk work at the start of the reschool.

    I read somewhere that Jimmy Wofford said something along the lines that the "walk creates strength, the trot creates power, and the canter creates speed". This was in reference to Eventing, but I believe there is some truth to it. A great walk is so important, but all too often under valued.
    www.englishivyfarms.com
    Hunters, Jumpers, & Welsh Ponies
    All I pay my psychiatrist is the cost of feed and hay, and he'll listen to me any day. ~Author Unknown

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    • #22
      I agree with all the positive comments. It is how we train and retrain every horse. The only sad thing is, it is becoming a lost art.

      The reason the horse appears to be under tempo is because the rider is not asking him to carry more than he can push. He can stay in balance at this tempo, so that is the correct tempo for him right now. More forward will come as he builds more strength and can carry as much as he pushes. IF she asked him to be more forward, he would not be able to carry it, and therefore run onto his forehand. Forward is a seriously misunderstood word. Balance would be a better one to focus initially, IMO.

      The back is key. Without developing relaxation and strength in the back the horse never can carry his own body or that of a rider comfortably. This is not really a "training concept" its just the basics.
      "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
      ---
      The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by RAyers View Post
        This is a classical dressage technique to get a horse to come over their back and open up the step, called "uberstreichen"
        Uberstreichen is a TEST of throughness and self carriage, not a training technique to encourage or discourage anything. Uberstreichen is the release of the inside rein, or both reins for 1-2 strides only.
        www.destinationconsensusequus.com
        chaque pas est fait ensemble

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        • #24
          My horse would get tight in his shoulders and try to walk over his front end if you asked him to walk too quickly. Long, low and slow at the walk really helped him to relax and start working off his haunches and using his back. He spent a lot of time last winter in this type of program trying to build up his topline. It has been a slow progression, but I would say it took him a good six months or so to develop the strength to consistently track up and keep his shoulders loose. Over the past few months, I have noticed that he is swinging a lot more freely from the shoulders and has more suspension in his step. His trot has always been a bit hard to sit, but it is pretty difficult now. I would also say that I have also noticed his canter becoming a lot more balanced and powerful over the past few months. This horse is probably on the slower side to develop. Each horse is an individual, so it is really hard give a timeline.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by Petstorejunkie View Post
            Uberstreichen is a TEST of throughness and self carriage, not a training technique to encourage or discourage anything. Uberstreichen is the release of the inside rein, or both reins for 1-2 strides only.
            "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
            ---
            The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

            Comment


            • #26
              [QUOTE=netg;6059250]Unfortunately, on the dressage board most posters would say you can't give up the contact, and just stick the horse in side reins to develop correct muscling.

              We don't use side reins to develop muscles, however we use side reins for bending exercises, we use one at a time on the inside rein, occasionally.

              Nor do we give up contact, to fully understand contact you have to understand feel.
              Contact is relative to the development of the training of the horse. The horse must move back to front, to allow you to maintain a feel. IE a semblance of contact.
              A horse that is underneath you, light in your hands and carrying himself is a wonderful thing.
              http://community.webshots.com/user/summitspringsfarm

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              • #27
                Originally posted by Summit Springs Farm View Post
                We don't use side reins to develop muscles, however we use side reins for bending exercises, we use one at a time on the inside rein, occasionally.

                Nor do we give up contact, to fully understand contact you have to understand feel.
                Contact is relative to the development of the training of the horse. The horse must move back to front, to allow you to maintain a feel. IE a semblance of contact.
                A horse that is underneath you, light in your hands and carrying himself is a wonderful thing.
                Oh, I believe they can be useful. And agree with you in regards to contact. I just know whenever someone discusses working with a horse who has any type of retraining needed the general responses are to get contact and only let them out as they'll reach for contact - rather than teaching them to use their bodies properly, and contact resulting from that and being appropriate to where they are.

                I believe from this thread I would very much love the way you train your horses!
                If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
                -meupatdoes

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                • #28
                  This is what I am doing with a horse that I am retraining. He was used as a lower level event horse but had absolutely no idea how to carry himself. We did a lot of hacking with his nose on the ground before I even asked him for anything. He simply didn't have a clue what to do without someone having a hold of his face.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by Petstorejunkie View Post
                    Uberstreichen is a TEST of throughness and self carriage, not a training technique to encourage or discourage anything. Uberstreichen is the release of the inside rein, or both reins for 1-2 strides only.
                    I believe it's the only way to train. Without this there is no self carriage, IMHO.
                    I would also think in the video there is no contact because that, too, has to be taught to the rider. Better no contact when starting than the wrong contact.....no seesaw, too tight rein. Correct stretching, with a rider in correct contact, is a hard concept when starting this....but once the rider/horse "get it" it's fantastic.

                    With Fudge, my new horse, he was such a good jumping horse that he was ridden basically to jump. We are working on building top line and long and low....he is loving it...except he is not strong enough to canter like that yet. It does take time and patience and we do not see enough of this in the H/J world anymore.
                    Adriane
                    Happily retired but used to be:
                    www.ParrotNutz.com

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                    • #30
                      I've used long and low to train and condition a great deal. I think the key is in maintaining a sufficient level of engagement and balance, and not letting the horse fall on it's forehand.

                      A strung out horse ridden with no energy and on it's forehand, is not long and low.

                      Correct long and low can be a difficult accomplishment because the horse requires the ability to balance himself, and a degree of self carriage.

                      Aside from ring work, I think long and low combined with hill work make up two of the most useful exercises in a conditioning program.

                      I think long and low is also a very similar in concept to the frame developed for western pleasure. Not peanut rolling, but poll not lower than the withers, ridden with balance and a level of true engagement.

                      In a way I think of proper western pleasure to be something like slow motion dressage.

                      Comment


                      • #31
                        I too believe this is becoming a lost art. We have known Anne for many years and our first experience was with my daughters young TB. We were lucky that our then trainer fully subscribed to her methods and introduced us to them and to her. We watched him bloom from a pair of legs with withers to a very broad backed balance boy. His jump went from one where he jumped over himself to one where he can rock back and use his shoulders.
                        https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

                        I was thrilled when we were ready to back Sammy that she was willing to come down and get him started....and she has been down a couple times a year and is "on call" ever since. (I'm not sure she realized what a lifetime commitment she was making when she said she'd come down the first time) We'd be lost without her.

                        It is important to realize that the video you are watching is just the beginning of the journey.....and what a rewarding and fun journey it has proven to be.
                        Member of the Redheads with Redheads clique.
                        I have a blog about Sammy: http://www.sammyssaga.blogspot.com/

                        Comment


                        • #32
                          i just wanted to hop aboard and say that the estimable AK and i both grew up together with the late mrs. Peggy Touchstone as our instructor. when GM came to the farm for quarterly clinics he never griped about our flat work. ever.

                          it seems that old is new again!!!! my regards to ann.

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                          • #33
                            You still need contact to do that type of work. Half halts are a must to rebalance otherwise the horse simply travels in the easiest posture... On the fronts
                            ~~Member of the TB's Rule Clique ~~
                            http://www.off-breed-dressage.blogspot.com/

                            Comment


                            • #34
                              Originally posted by alterhorse View Post
                              I've used long and low to train and condition a great deal. I think the key is in maintaining a sufficient level of engagement and balance, and not letting the horse fall on it's forehand.

                              A strung out horse ridden with no energy and on it's forehand, is not long and low.

                              Correct long and low can be a difficult accomplishment because the horse requires the ability to balance himself, and a degree of self carriage.

                              Aside from ring work, I think long and low combined with hill work make up two of the most useful exercises in a conditioning program.

                              I think long and low is also a very similar in concept to the frame developed for western pleasure. Not peanut rolling, but poll not lower than the withers, ridden with balance and a level of true engagement.

                              In a way I think of proper western pleasure to be something like slow motion dressage.
                              *puts on old fogie hat* Back in my day, I won regularly on a QH who had a true three-beat gait, just with the tempo desired of western pleasure horses. Because there was a true level of engagement he did very correct lead changes and I trained him up to two-tempis. But then again, if I wanted to fix his head position, I did shoulder-fore on a loose WP rein, and it got his back swinging, hind end re-engaged, and head went down.

                              Originally posted by NOMIOMI1 View Post
                              You still need contact to do that type of work. Half halts are a must to rebalance otherwise the horse simply travels in the easiest posture... On the fronts
                              Contact of a sort - but not like many people on the dressage board will insist you must have. And the seat helps a lot there, too....
                              If Kim Kardashian wants to set up a gofundme to purchase the Wu Tang album from Martin Shkreli, guess what people you DON'T HAVE TO DONATE.
                              -meupatdoes

                              Comment


                              • #35
                                Originally posted by rockfordbuckeye View Post
                                For those of you that mention you have done "re-training" in this method - how long do you generally feel it has taken to get a horse to accept going long and low when they have been being ridden inverted? How long do you feel it takes to re-muscle correctly?
                                I think Anne would tell you it takes as long as it takes I'm a relatively new disciple of Anne's, I just met her in person in November 2011. I worked with her for two consecutive days on a green youngster, well started, no major issues, and good work ethic. It took us about 2 weeks to "get it" at the trot, and we're still striving for consistency in all gaits. I think it would take longer to re-educate one with preconceived notions.

                                You have to understand the video is a single session, not an end product. The appearance of "laggy" gaits and "being on the forehand" is what Anne calls slow work, it is intentional. This slow work is necessary to build muscle and to foster a sense of relaxation, prerequisites to balance and self-carriage. The slow work also makes your horse really listen to you and wait for you to give direction, which leads ultimately to the coveted "push ride".

                                As for the lack of contact, it isn't no contact. Anne teaches "the illusion of contact", I just adore this concept and will not do it justice in this post. Light hands doesn't mean you are just throwing your horse away, you have your whole body and mind for contact.

                                Anne is a really wonderful, kind person, extremely knowledgeable, and most importantly: she loves horses.

                                Comment


                                • #36
                                  We started working with Anne in September w/our warmblood. All three of us -mother daughter and horse - were super frustrated. He had been tied down in draw reins, was strung out behind, tense, spooky, and jumped like a duck when he got too close to the base. In 4+ months with Anne's guidance and - doing exactly the types of things you see in the video - the change has been nothing short of amazing. Hard to believe that quiet, slow- footed, trotting could be so beneficial but we are believers now! Our horse is so much more relaxed, the spook is greatly diminished, he is using his head and neck and the head carraige is long and low and beautiful. His whole top line & muscling has dramatically improved. He can keep the bascule over the fence even when he gets close. When we started he couldn't hold the canter unless you held him up. Now he can canter in the field on a loose rein and he will him stretch down, use his head and neck, and rock back on his hocks when going down hill to self balance. Our horse's movement, attitude, and jumping form are all greatly improved. We have access to a large field with some some small hills and Anne strongly encouraged work outside the ring. We do a lot of slow work in the field - just like the slow work in the video - and this has really helped the development of balance and muscle development. Anne has taught my daughter how to get him on a rein, how to get her horse to stretch for her hand, how to better discipline her body to be centered and to visualize the results she wants. We still have work to do but the jouney with Anne is fun, productive and all three of us ( mother, daughter & horse) are much more relaxed. If you and your horse are at odds with each other, if your horse seems stiff & inverted then you need to get in touch with Anne for a clinic or send her a video for review.

                                  Comment


                                  • #37
                                    We started working with Anne in September w/our warmblood. All three of us -mother daughter and horse - were super frustrated. He had been tied down in draw reins, was strung out behind, tense, spooky, and jumped like a duck when he got too close to the base. In 4+ months with Anne's guidance and - doing exactly the types of things you see in the video - the change has been nothing short of amazing. Hard to believe that quiet, slow- footed, trotting could be so beneficial but we are believers now! Our horse is so much more relaxed, the spook is greatly diminished, he is using his head and neck and the head carraige is long and low and beautiful. His whole top line & muscling has dramatically improved. He can keep the bascule over the fence even when he gets close. When we started he couldn't hold the canter unless you held him up. Now he can canter in the field on a loose rein and he will him stretch down, use his head and neck, and rock back on his hocks when going down hill to self balance. Our horse's movement, attitude, and jumping form are all greatly improved. We have access to a large field with some some small hills and Anne strongly encouraged work outside the ring. We do a lot of slow work in the field - just like the slow work in the video - and this has really helped the development of balance and muscle development. Anne has taught my daughter how to get him on a rein, how to get her horse to stretch for her hand, how to better discipline her body to be centered and to visualize the results she wants. We still have work to do but the jouney with Anne is fun, productive and all three of us ( mother, daughter & horse) are much more relaxed. If you and your horse are at odds with each other, if your horse seems stiff & inverted then you need to get in touch with Anne for a clinic or send her a video for review.

                                    Comment


                                    • #38
                                      What is shown is NOT a traditional technique (that would be 'chewing the reins from the hand' in a forward/downward/outward direction. Correct fdo/long and low is a MOMENTARY test of whether the horse will actively seek the hand as the contact is lightened and it chews fdo. It is not something that is done for long periods of time, but rather a few times in a ride.

                                      Uberstreichen is a reward of/for self carriage once a horse has started light collection, and it is also a test (where the horse will remain up/open/collected/connected to the outside rein (and later giving both) and the rider reward this by giving the inside rein w/o changing the seat or their balance).

                                      This video merely shows a horse which is not connected to the hand at all after the beginning, but goes from being in a starting to accept the bit mildly, to working on a loose rein and being totally on the forehand. A horse will NOT show overstride when allowed to go on the forehand. And although a slightly slower tempo can allow the back to swing more, it will not do so with an excessively long outline with no connection.

                                      What is shown is NOT a proper training level outline (which should be rather up and very open), what is shown is no contact.
                                      I.D.E.A. yoda

                                      Comment


                                      • #39
                                        Originally posted by ideayoda View Post
                                        What is shown is NOT a traditional technique (that would be 'chewing the reins from the hand' in a forward/downward/outward direction. Correct fdo/long and low is a MOMENTARY test of whether the horse will actively seek the hand as the contact is lightened and it chews fdo. It is not something that is done for long periods of time, but rather a few times in a ride.

                                        Uberstreichen is a reward of/for self carriage once a horse has started light collection, and it is also a test (where the horse will remain up/open/collected/connected to the outside rein (and later giving both) and the rider reward this by giving the inside rein w/o changing the seat or their balance).

                                        This video merely shows a horse which is not connected to the hand at all after the beginning, but goes from being in a starting to accept the bit mildly, to working on a loose rein and being totally on the forehand. A horse will NOT show overstride when allowed to go on the forehand. And although a slightly slower tempo can allow the back to swing more, it will not do so with an excessively long outline with no connection.

                                        What is shown is NOT a proper training level outline (which should be rather up and very open), what is shown is no contact.
                                        I understand what you're saying, but it is possible to ride a horse with no contact from your center and seat, and still have "some" engagement and self carriage.

                                        If the horse ridden with no contact is trained to seek "connection" with the riders center, balance, and seat, the horse will carry itself in a "frame of anticipation" so that the horse may respond to the rider's center, balance, and seat aids, with little delay.

                                        That's the secret of long and low, the horse must carry itself in a frame in order to maintain it's own center in symmetry with the riders center. If the horse falls on his forehand the horse can't respond to the riders center. The horse must be willing to go long and low and want to listen to its rider. That's why long and low can sometimes be difficult to accomplish.

                                        I referenced a parallel to Western pleasure in my earlier post as another example of riding in a frame with "connection" but no contact.

                                        Comment


                                        • #40
                                          I dont really consider it long and low. IMO its a mobilization technique. It teaches the horse to relax, to balance, to use their back, the correct response to the leg and most importantly, to chase the bit. It sets up the basis for the horses relationship with the hand and the leg.

                                          You can do it with more or less contact *as long as the horse is making the contact* not the rider. I call it Pre-Ssage versus Dressage LOL
                                          "Kindness is free" ~ Eurofoal
                                          ---
                                          The CoTH CYA - please consult w/your veterinarian under any and all circumstances.

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