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Show Jumpings wake up call..my thoughts exactly!!

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  • Show Jumpings wake up call..my thoughts exactly!!

    Murray Kessler of the North American Riders Group echoed Morris’ words in the Nov. 7 open forum. “We are at a significant disadvantage in the area of breeding. Almost all of our horses come from European descent. These large and well established breeding programs are tightly controlled by governing bodies. Simply said, we get second choice for the best horses in the world.”

    “Somehow, we have to get back to the horses we have in this country says George Morris. There are tens of thousands of horses out there. There are Gem Twists out there. The American Thoroughbred is the best sport horse in the world. I had two very early European mentors, Otto Heuckeroth at Ox Ridge, who was a great horseman, and Bertalan de Némethy. Both of those Europeans told me repeatedly, ‘George, the best horses in the world are these American Thoroughbred horses.’ I would like somehow in the next 25 years to see some people with deep pockets get back in that direction and utilize this internal resource.”

    So, I ask you what are we going to do???
    To be liberal is nirvana but for those of us who deal in reality, the world is getting really scary.

  • #2
    Might also consider...

    It's not that we don't have horses capable of Int. Level. But most of the horses end up in the hands of people who have no asperation to that level, and they get LUNGED TO DEATH at shows so ammy's can ride them.

    So they are capable, but never achieve top level stardom
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    • #3
      Originally posted by grandprixjump View Post
      It's not that we don't have horses capable of Int. Level. But most of the horses end up in the hands of people who have no asperation to that level, and they get LUNGED TO DEATH at shows so ammy's can ride them.

      So they are capable, but never achieve top level stardom
      I highly doubt that international Grand Prix potential horses are in hunter programs.
      http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
      Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

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      • #4
        Originally posted by supershorty628 View Post
        I highly doubt that international Grand Prix potential horses are in hunter programs.
        Oh come on now, you know there are just tons of horses with international 1.60m scope & brains carting their little ammies around the 3' hunter ring...

        Comment


        • #5
          Well, actually, I know of a couple right now that have GP scope and talent that are in fact toting people around the hunter ring. Why? Because for some reason people are willing to spend a boatload of money on a hunter prospect, but a jumper prospect has to be jumping 1.30 before it's worth over $50k. So where are the trainers that are selling those horses going to try to market them? To the hunter ring of course!

          And I know a lot of breeders in this country that are breeding international level and quality, but they are overlooked because they aren't in Europe.

          FWIW, I too believe the TB to be the most athletic horse out there. Too bad many of our young riders aren't being taught how to ride that type of horse, or how to even bring a young horse along...
          Not all who wander are lost.

          Comment

          • Original Poster

            #6
            Exactly Kinsella. A lot of our riders today are barely capable of riding the local K-Mart pony. They are not being taught good basics and the number of "trainers" out there professing to be professionals are themselves Kmart jocks! It is frightening and sad.
            To be liberal is nirvana but for those of us who deal in reality, the world is getting really scary.

            Comment


            • #7
              the kids, including mine, are being taught only how to ride warmbloods and then being told that warmbloods are better. I can't tell you the number of times I was told that I was wasting my time with TB's, no matter how athletic they were. I also can't tell you how many trainers have no idea how to deal with TB's. since we now have a crop of trainers that have only dealt with WB's, they push the type of horses with which they are comfortable. I have watched this for the last 20 years.

              And we wonder why then, Europe which is predominately WB and easier to shop quickly, gets all the business?

              I do agree that too many horses that are capable are stuck doing some low level something. I groomed for some Olympic riders and have ridden a number of horses that did the Olympics. Yes, they are out there. Yes, we are missing them.

              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                http://www.retiredracehorseblog.com/...-wake-up-call/

                Above is the original article...I would say Kisella and I are in agreement with some pretty influential people in this sport.
                To be liberal is nirvana but for those of us who deal in reality, the world is getting really scary.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The idea that there are GP horses out there is valid, and I think grandprixjump is making an equally valid point as well.

                  In this country one of the cheapest, most accessible horse flesh resources, is the OTTB. The OTTB is purchased for almost every equine discipline or endeavor one can think of. It only makes sense in many ways, the TB industry has one of the most developed breeding programs in the world, and one would be blindly uninformed if they did not understand that, and consider it when purchase horses under $2.5K.

                  Not everyone who purchases a OTTB is thinking here is my next big hunter/jumper prospect. I would hazard to guess that it is a minority of ottb buyers who actually have any intention to develop to anywhere near the point the horse would even register on any scale that we on COTH would even consider recognizable as a prospect. Even many of those that make into a decent hunter/jumper program are invisible simply because of the goals of the owner/rider.

                  My father started working with a younger rider recently. Riding for 7 years, owned a TB, and they had never exceeded 2'6". They went from 2'6" to 4'6" between spring and fall. My father who has been training for close to 60 years, and has worked with some of this country's top horses, has every belief that this horse can do the GP route, it is just a matter of getting the rider there.

                  So why, if it is so implausible that a horse could be doing the low level hunters, was this horse not identified as a GP prospect by the riders previous trainers?

                  I have a client right now that is fortunate enough to have the resources that there is no limit to level of horse they could purchase. Has bred some of the top WB's in this country, has a facility the top riders in this country would be envious of, but has no desire to go beyond 3', and has no desire to campaign endlessly. Her horses will never be on the market, they are her family.

                  We all want like that warm fuzzy we get from the idea of WB's being bred for the international competition and the guarantee that supposedly gives us, but clearly that cannot be realistic. If today's hunters are western Europe's jumper prospects that have no cut it, and there are a zillion European riders looking for the same thing we are over here, and some of the most successful countries breeding and development programs do not facilitate easy sale of their top horses, and if just some of those individuals who do luck into a great prospect are smart enough not to sell to the competition; what kind of pool does that leave us?

                  We are one country and we are having a problem putting together a small team of horses that can compete with even the also ran's in International competition, this should be evidence enough that we are not getting horses in the numbers we need from the elsewhere and that we need to do what we have to take care of our own interests, and stop relying on the occasional folly of some other country or the gifts of a few well resourced benefactors, who can overcome barriers by throwing so much money at our competition that they allow us to buy one of their better horses.

                  We had the chance in the past when we pretty much dominated international competition on the backs of TB's, and even then outside of few sincere efforts we did not develop any type of sustained breeding program, we can count on one hand the number of bloodlines that were carried for any period of time. Even today knowing what we know, we still insist on getting on the same old path of ignorance, accepting the concepts of precocity and early speed breeding as our excuse to ignore the resource we have available.

                  I personally think the last thing we should be doing is scoffing at an idea, that has long been understood, and has been expressed by many who know all too well what they are speaking of.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I am not on the east coast, but in the Midwest, and I have not seen a TB that I would care to own for a long time.

                    Super poor feet seems to be the standard here. Thin walls, small, etc. I also cannot think of any breeder in my area who is breeding TB's for jumping.

                    Used to be a fantastic breed. Now after years of speed at all cost with no concern for feet......

                    Perhaps it is different in the east, but it seems to be all about warmbloods here. Nothing better than a good TB IMO. And I would be so concerned personally to buy an OTTB. I see my neighbors starting their babies to race when they are a year and a half old and I want to cry.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Somehow we should figure out how to sticky this discussion, since it comes up so frequently.

                      For the record, I think there are some very nice horses bred in the US, both TB and non-TB. But American breeders face a lot of challenges in marketing them in competition with our European friends. As noted in another thread (and as frequently identified in many other discussions such as the one on the jumper discipline recently) the cost of raising and starting a horse here is simply much, much higher than it is in Europe. And even if you've put a good start on a young horse here, our geography makes it somewhat difficult to attract buyers who are weighing the trip to go see your one or two or maybe a handful of prospects against the opportunity to spend a weekend in Europe seeing as many as they have the time and energy to look at. Our TBs are good athletes, but the great majority aren't bred to jump; they're bred to run. And most recently, they have been bred for early speed and the distances that are the most economically attractive. It doesn't mean that they can't jump - many of them can, and do it very well. But it's not what they are bred for, either physically or in terms of temperament.

                      It has also been my personal experience - ie, perhaps not universal - that the European young horses are simply also better prepared and more realistically priced for the US market. I don't necessarily agree that they are rejects, either. (Over in Europe, those get eaten.) The Europeans have figured out what their market likes to buy and they are breeding for it.

                      This is of course a controversial subject that also comes up on this BB fairly frequently; you have people (like me) who want to be able to hop on a young 3 year old and do a little assessment. I don't expect them to be a finished horse at that age, obviously. The European horses I've tried can all WTC under saddle and no one is going to have heart failure if you want to pop it over a little jump just to see how it deals with that. US breeders, on the other hand, often (note: NOT always) do not have their youngsters to the point where you can do that. You get the lecture that oh, precious hasn't been backed yet because we don't like to start anything til they are 5! That way they last forever!!

                      Hey, whatever floats your boat but that hasn't been my experience, and for the kind of money I spend, I want to be able to do a decent evaluation. My oldest is now in his mid 20s and still going strong, the middle child is 12 and doing the same, and the youngest, who I sold out of the first year ring about a year ago, won pretty much everything this year for his new owner (he is Mr. May in the 2012 Beval calendar for those who'd like to see how he turned out ;> ) They are all sound and happy in their work.

                      I really don't agree that there are tons of $2500 horses that people are overlooking in favor of the European WBs just on the basis of the snob factor. Not every trainer can deal with a TB (and plenty cannot handle WBs either, LOL.) But there are plenty of competent professionals who would be making a fortune (or more of a fortune ) if they could pick up inexpensive prospects and make them up into GP stars. Or even just nice junior and amateur horses. They'd be doing it all day long if that were the case.
                      **********
                      We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                      -PaulaEdwina

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I agree w/howardh that the feet are worse than they were "back in the day", but not always. Anyway, lots of these horses seem to get around just fine XC in lower-level eventing, where the footing isn't nearly as manicured as in the show ring - so perhaps it's not *so much* a question of the feet as trainers not knowing how to manage them correctly.

                        The reality is, TBs are High. Maintenance. Horses. They just are. We've bred the hardiness right out of them. If you love them, as I do, then you learn to manage them correctly. But I can all too easily see the "Kidz Theze Daze" type of trainers not wanting to bother.

                        I've had TBs my whole life long, 50+ years of 'em, and I got so used to doing "TB Maintenance" as a matter of routine that I had truly honestly forgotten that there are in fact horses who don't need all that stuff.

                        My current little ASB has feet like freaking IRON (low level hunter, goes barefoot, gallops and cavorts on a pasture with very rough footing) and looks his best on half a scoop of Nutrena Safe Choice every day with a ration balancer. If that's what somebody is accustomed to, they are going to find the TB a *serious* hassle, beyond anything they ever even contemplated could be the case. We actually see a lot of this culture clash right here on COTH in the horse care forum.

                        If you know how to care for them and are willing to do everything they need, TBs are still the VERY best horses out there. But if you don't want to put in the time, money, and sheer hard work it takes to get/keep them going, realistically you're better off with something else.
                        "The standard you walk by is the standard you accept."--Lt. Gen. David Morrison, Austalian Army Chief

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lucassb View Post
                          My oldest is now in his mid 20s and still going strong, the middle child is 12 and doing the same, and the youngest, who I sold out of the first year ring about a year ago, won pretty much everything this year for his new owner (he is Mr. May in the 2012 Beval calendar for those who'd like to see how he turned out ;> ) They are all sound and happy in their work.
                          You didn't tell me Kiss was on the Beval calendar!!! Now I have to try and find one.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by War Admiral View Post
                            I agree w/howardh that the feet are worse than they were "back in the day", but not always. Anyway, lots of these horses seem to get around just fine XC in lower-level eventing, where the footing isn't nearly as manicured as in the show ring - so perhaps it's not *so much* a question of the feet as trainers not knowing how to manage them correctly.

                            The reality is, TBs are High. Maintenance. Horses. They just are. We've bred the hardiness right out of them. If you love them, as I do, then you learn to manage them correctly. But I can all too easily see the "Kidz Theze Daze" type of trainers not wanting to bother.

                            I've had TBs my whole life long, 50+ years of 'em, and I got so used to doing "TB Maintenance" as a matter of routine that I had truly honestly forgotten that there are in fact horses who don't need all that stuff.

                            My current little ASB has feet like freaking IRON (low level hunter, goes barefoot, gallops and cavorts on a pasture with very rough footing) and looks his best on half a scoop of Nutrena Safe Choice every day with a ration balancer. If that's what somebody is accustomed to, they are going to find the TB a *serious* hassle, beyond anything they ever even contemplated could be the case. We actually see a lot of this culture clash right here on COTH in the horse care forum.

                            If you know how to care for them and are willing to do everything they need, TBs are still the VERY best horses out there. But if you don't want to put in the time, money, and sheer hard work it takes to get/keep them going, realistically you're better off with something else.
                            That's an interesting point.

                            My oldest TB - who showed in all three rings successfully, and was complimented by the late, great Ronnie Mutch as having the "best hind end he'd ever seen," actually failed his PPE because his feet were, at the time, typical racehorse crummy. That was almost a quarter century ago, though, and he's built like an old turf horse, in other words like a brick sh*thouse and was always sound as sound could be. I'd take another ten of him any day but I did have to work pretty hard to get those feet right for a while, and he had to be in a *very* specific program or he was just a complete PITA to ride. He was a brilliant athlete, and still going strong today in his semi-retirement, but I haven't seen a TB like him in a long, long time.
                            **********
                            We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                            -PaulaEdwina

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              That was almost a quarter century ago, though, and he's built like an old turf horse, in other words like a brick sh*thouse and was always sound as sound could be.
                              Lucassb, I'm sure you've posted this previously, but what were his bloodlines?

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by Flashy Gray VA View Post
                                Lucassb, I'm sure you've posted this previously, but what were his bloodlines?
                                Pretty classic TB - He was by a stallion called Tim the Tiger (Nashua/Rose Court) out of a Miles Standish mare (Olympia/How by Princequillo) named Spanish Coffee. So, lots of neat horses like Nasrullah, Bull Dog, BlenheimII, Hyperion etc.
                                **********
                                We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                                -PaulaEdwina

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by howardh View Post
                                  I am not on the east coast, but in the Midwest, and I have not seen a TB that I would care to own for a long time.

                                  Super poor feet seems to be the standard here. Thin walls, small, etc. I also cannot think of any breeder in my area who is breeding TB's for jumping.

                                  Used to be a fantastic breed. Now after years of speed at all cost with no concern for feet......
                                  This is one of those widespread generalizations that really doesn't bear closer inspection. Really? What good is speed to a racehorse if he has no feet? Like horses that jump, they need to be able to do their job, not just look fast standing still.

                                  Perhaps it is different in the east, but it seems to be all about warmbloods here. Nothing better than a good TB IMO. And I would be so concerned personally to buy an OTTB. I see my neighbors starting their babies to race when they are a year and a half old and I want to cry.
                                  I'm not sure of the rules at fairgrounds and bush tracks but at most U.S. race tracks, horses cannot start until they reach their second birthday (actual b'day, not Jan. 1).
                                  www.laurienberenson.com

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Kenjackson View Post
                                    Simply said, we get second choice for the best horses in the world.”
                                    No offence Kenjackson, but that is just an absurd statement.

                                    The fact of the matter is, whoever is willing to pay the highest price will be the one that buys the horse.
                                    www.OneJumpAhead.ca

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Unless it isn't offered for sale to someone outside the country. Then it becomes which ever NATIVE has the most money.
                                      Not all who wander are lost.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Just to look at this from a different perspective ...... I have bred TBs for the track and for jumping and there is no shorter road to going out of business then that. OTTBs are being given away or sold for under 500.00 and no one is going to spend 3 or 4 years raising a horse to be able to sell him for under 1,000.00 . Not only will they not look at your TBs but they will tell you over the phone how much cheaper they can buy them at the next track auction and if that one goes unsound they can buy another one for less then you are asking. Therefore I went to warmbloods and for several years bred our stallions to our left over TB mares and started producing good broodmares that I subsequently bred to a warmblood stallion which produced even better sport horses.

                                        Let me know which charitable farm decides to breed pure TBs for show jumping because I'd like to take a look at their books.

                                        Putting my flame suit on.

                                        Now on facebook under Bannockburn Farm LLC
                                        Allyn McCracken
                                        Sport Horse Breeder
                                        www.bannockburnfarmllc.com

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