• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Hand placement - elbow/hand/bit thing of the past says Robert Gage

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Hand placement - elbow/hand/bit thing of the past says Robert Gage

    Now I am not trying to argue with Robert Gage, but I am having a hard time picturing what he us describing here:


    A straight line is something of the past. Good riding is good riding, but equitation changes from year to year. Right now, it is acceptable for a rider to have the line from their elbows through their wrists aimed a little above the bit….almost towards the horse’s eye balls. The rider should have their wrists slightly above their forearms and fingers by having a little bend at their wrists, so their hands point a little downwards…..almost in line with their horse’s shoulders. Forearms point towards the horse’s head, and hands point down the shoulders. Elbows IN FRONT of the rider’s tummy.


    Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or any pictures that clearly illustrates his description?
    The Equine Wellness and Nutrition FB Group - Come join us!!
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/equinewellness/

  • #2
    No, but I'd love to hear his reasoning on this. I can't understand how this broken line would increase communication through the reins. Of course, I also take exception to the statement, "... but equitation changes from year to year." Really? I don't think so. Good riders may change their styles from horse to horse to get the job done, but IMHO equitation doesn't change. How it (the basic form) is used may change to achieve the desired result (form follows function) but what Mr. Gage describes comes close to 'piano hands' which were never very effective.
    ~Kryswyn~ Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo
    Check out my Kryswyn JRTs on Facebook

    "Life is merrier with a terrier!"

    Comment


    • #3
      I think, perhaps, this is what he's describing: http://www.chronofhorse.com/sites/de...s/DSC_3623.JPG

      Comment


      • #4
        I'm trying to figure out how to get my elbows in front of my tummy.
        A proud friend of bar.ka.

        Comment

        • Original Poster

          #5
          Thia - that looks almost opposite from what Mr. Gage is saying, but maybe not?...
          The Equine Wellness and Nutrition FB Group - Come join us!!
          https://www.facebook.com/groups/equinewellness/

          Comment


          • #6
            I have heard this before- at a previous barn the trainer (a former big name in the NE eq circuit) had us carry our elbows with what felt like 90 degree angle (probably closer to 50) with thumbs pointing forward and down. She never did say why but she did say it was 'in fashion'...
            -JustWorld International-

            Comment


            • #7
              I don't agree. Put your opposite hand lightly over your wrist. Hold your wrist in the "neutral" position- with a straight plane from hand to forearm. Now bend the wrist forward (as Mr. Gage seems to suggest). And bend the wrist back to have a "broken wrist". In both of the last two positions, you can FEEL the stiffness. Not a good thing.
              http://patchworkfarmga.com

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Tha Ridge View Post
                I think, perhaps, this is what he's describing: http://www.chronofhorse.com/sites/de...s/DSC_3623.JPG
                Do. NOT. Like. 'Nuff said.
                "Horses lend us the wings we lack." ~ Pam Brown

                Comment


                • #9
                  But equitation styles do change over time. If you look at, say, Jane Dillon's books from the 60's, you will see a lower leg with the foot against the inner branch of the stirrup and the toes out more than would be considered ideal today. Also her books advocate strongly for the automatic release as the pinnacle of achievement for jumping and equitation.

                  Obviously that is no longer the case and GM's book of equitation had many modifications from that previous style.
                  "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu, The Art of War
                  Rainy
                  Stash

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    It may be a thing of the past in the Jumper arena but it shouldn't be in the equitation classes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I dunno, styles do change and just because there is a straight line there does not mean the rider is effective, giving the horse the freedom to use it's neck or reacting to the motion of the horse's body. Fact I think many put too much emphasis on geometry for the sake of a straight line and not enough on what is actually effective riding. And effective riding is different depending on situation, terrain (or lack thereof) and that horse on that day on that course over that fence.

                      He does say it's OK to have the elbows more forward then I care for and I disagree on the wrist-weaker and certainly not what the top clinicians currently teach.

                      But I don't see any mention of the shoulders also being forward and also suspect we may have a contextual problem here. I would like to see his entire remarks, not just the excerpt.

                      May have been getting at defining effective riding by just looking for that straight line at the expense of actual effective riding which consists of many tools and is situationally specific, not cookie cutter.
                      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Freebird! View Post
                        Now I am not trying to argue with Robert Gage, but I am having a hard time picturing what he us describing here:


                        A straight line is something of the past. Good riding is good riding, but equitation changes from year to year. Right now, it is acceptable for a rider to have the line from their elbows through their wrists aimed a little above the bit….almost towards the horse’s eye balls. The rider should have their wrists slightly above their forearms and fingers by having a little bend at their wrists, so their hands point a little downwards…..almost in line with their horse’s shoulders. Forearms point towards the horse’s head, and hands point down the shoulders. Elbows IN FRONT of the rider’s tummy.


                        Does anyone have any thoughts on this, or any pictures that clearly illustrates his description?
                        I do agree equitation changes and I think a lot of the changes have been due to the fact the horses are not nearly the same as they were years ago as well as the challenging courses you see in the Eq ring today.

                        I understand the picture he is explaining. If you raise your wrist above your forearm it is more of a Dressage position. However, Dressage riders point the thumbs in a upward position. If you allow your wrist to soften out as he explains it doesn't create a stiffness at all. Your elbows in front of your tummy (think) long arm. Hands more forward using your long arm and you reins must be shorter. It creates an independent hand and arm.... I saw this a lot in the GM clinic I watched. I will see if I can find a video or picture of it.
                        Live in the sunshine.
                        Swim in the sea.
                        Drink the wild air.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          If the pic is indicative of the style, I use it though not as nicely as that rider. Why? Because I have short arms and keeping my elbows next to my sides means that my hands are in my lap. So I have to ride with my arms more in front of my body, I keep my elbows bent and my hands are raised a bit to keep the line between the arm and month soft and connected. When I ride in the classic position, I have a stiff, rigid connection. Luckily I ride hunters so it doesn't matter how it looks, only how it works.
                          kenyagirl

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Freebird! View Post
                            Thia - that looks almost opposite from what Mr. Gage is saying, but maybe not?...
                            Yeah, upon re-reading, you're right.

                            This, perhaps, http://chronofhorse.com/sites/defaul...HughesFlat.jpg, seems a bit closer.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Here is GM elbows are a bit out and his hand would need to be raised -

                              http://www.turningpointfarms.com/_Media/mg_9243-4.jpeg

                              Nice example of long arms: (elbow in front of the belly)

                              http://farm1.static.flickr.com/28/63...13d292f11c.jpg

                              To have this arm/hand as RG explains your horse must be in balance like a dressage horse.

                              And a dressage rider note hand up - but elbow is at the hip...

                              http://farm1.static.flickr.com/28/63...5fa00fcf37.jpg

                              I think why this is happening in the Eq is more and more the Eq horses are going like Dressage horses. It's a pretty picture.
                              Live in the sunshine.
                              Swim in the sea.
                              Drink the wild air.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by doublesstable View Post

                                Nice example of long arms: (elbow in front of the belly)

                                http://farm1.static.flickr.com/28/63...13d292f11c.jpg
                                This pic seems to be a great example of what Gage is describing: forearms pointed toward the horse's head, hands toward the horse's shoulders, elbows in front of the rider's belly.
                                "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu, The Art of War
                                Rainy
                                Stash

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Does GM typically ride like that picture posted, with hands sort of flat for lack of a more descriptive term? I ask because my husband rides like that and it tends to turn his elbows out a bit. He's a very effective rider, but I often nag him about this. I will quit nagging if GM rides that way.
                                  “Be yourself; everyone else is already taken.”
                                  ¯ Oscar Wilde

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by 2bayboys View Post
                                    But equitation styles do change over time. If you look at, say, Jane Dillon's books from the 60's, you will see a lower leg with the foot against the inner branch of the stirrup and the toes out more than would be considered ideal today. Also her books advocate strongly for the automatic release as the pinnacle of achievement for jumping and equitation.

                                    Obviously that is no longer the case and GM's book of equitation had many modifications from that previous style.
                                    Interesting statement, especially since Jane Dillion trained Joe Fargis who won the Gold Medal at the Olympics http://arcadiasbest.com/wp-content/u...uchCrop600.jpg
                                    and GM trained Conrad Homfeld who won the silver medal http://www.equestrianlife.com/mw/ima...ad_Homfeld.png

                                    BOTH riders had fabulous form, with the automatic release, straight line from the bit to the elbow, AND I personally heard GM lament that you don't see the auto release, and it is a SHAME.

                                    Gordon Wright who trained GM, called the auto release the Advanced form of jumping release and the crest release as the intermediate form.

                                    Captain VS Littaur, taught the advanced form, of following hands, or auto release. Bernie Traurig http://www.bernietraurig.com/images/aboutheader.jpgwas one of his students.

                                    Frank Chapot http://www.showjumpinghalloffame.net.../f_chapot2.jpg
                                    Former chef d'equipe of the USET, was responsible for the Olympic Gold Medal team in 1984; World Championships in 1986 and the Team Silver Medal in '88, and who trained Greg Best http://media.photobucket.com/image/g...g?t=1269685743 Both Frank Chapot and Greg Best show the advanced form: Following arms, auto release.

                                    Excellence in equitation has NOT changed. What has changed is those who teach equitation and do not or perhaps can not teach the auto-release.
                                    http://www.herselffarm.com
                                    Proud of my Hunter Breeding Princesses
                                    "Grief is the price we all pay for love," Gretchen Jackson (1/29/07) In Memory of Barbaro

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by findeight View Post

                                      He does say it's OK to have the elbows more forward then I care for and I disagree on the wrist-weaker and certainly not what the top clinicians currently teach.

                                      But I don't see any mention of the shoulders also being forward and also suspect we may have a contextual problem here. I would like to see his entire remarks, not just the excerpt.
                                      Actually, it IS in it's entirety - Someone posted a question, asking what correct hand position should look like, on Judge My Ride, and that was his complete answer. I'm really not trying to pick on Mr Gage, but his answer was not what I've always taught, so I wanted to ask my fellow COTHers what y'all thought.
                                      The Equine Wellness and Nutrition FB Group - Come join us!!
                                      https://www.facebook.com/groups/equinewellness/

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Going out on a limb to say you cannot teach the auto release, better called a following hand. It happens as a result of many other things.

                                        Chief among those things is a proper base of support on a fit and properly conditioned rider who can hold that base of support who has jumped often enough to react to what the horse needs in that particular situation.

                                        A properly taught rider who has stepped along from grabbing mane through the various CORRECT crest releases will develop it all by themselves. They will use it as appropriate-and it's not always the best choice, particularly showing how easy a Hunter goes with a big loop in the reins.

                                        That pic used as an example a few posts up? She may have her wrists flexed a little but she is in no way weak in her position-pretty dam solid looking to me. Fact that horse goes a little high in front and she may well just be reacting to what the horse is doing while maintaining a strong position.

                                        Think we get too nit picky sometimes and forget to look at what the ride is creating instead of cookie cutter hand position.
                                        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                        Comment

                                        Working...
                                        X