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Why can't eq finals winners defend their titles??

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  • Why can't eq finals winners defend their titles??

    Why can't people that won eq finals that remain jr's the year after they won come back and defend their titles?? It just makes no sense to me!!!!! Lillie Keenen is a prime example!!!!
    Author of COTH article "The Other Side of Aaron Vale"

  • #2
    Because it takes a lot of things coming together at the same time to win a National Championship--your horse has to physically feel good and be prepared properly, the course has to suit your horse and how it goes, you have to have a little luck as to when in the class you show (altho not always), your competition has to have some "off" rounds, your eye has to be working well, etc etc. And just because you may never win at Nationals, that is no reflection on how good of a rider you are. If you want to determine if a particular person is a talented rider, look at their WHOLE career, not just their results in the Eq at Nationals. There are many terrific riders that never won a National Championship.

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    • #3
      Why should they be allowed back? They already won. It is someone else's turn to shine the following year. That is part of what makes the Big Eq finals prestigious.

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      • #4
        You can't compete in the class once you won it. Like Hayley Barnhill cannot compete in the Maclay or Medal for the rest of her junior career because she already won them. Lillie and Sam cannot ride in the WIHS because they already won that. It's someone else's turn to win it. If they could come back and would win it again it wouldn't be nearly as special as the first time they won it which is what makes the Big Eq finals really special.

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        • #5
          Because once is enough!

          What would be the point?
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          • #6
            I think what the OP is getting at is WHY? We know it's special but there are some titles out there that you can defend. Our association "Princess" title was one of those. You could win x number of years. BUT you had to go through the same process of doing the essay, preforming your ride ( which you choreographed) and interview with the judges. (think beauty pageant!)

            The POINT was that you were upping the competition. The other girls knew that you had won, knew that you had an idea what to expect, and were already experienced at it. It made the competition HARDER.

            I am not saying I think it should be that way just hoping for clarification since most people are simply stating "You can't defend your title because you already won it." Almost like don't question the way it is, it is that way because that is how it has ALWAYS been.....

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            • Original Poster

              #7
              Originally posted by nlk View Post
              I think what the OP is getting at is WHY? We know it's special but there are some titles out there that you can defend. Our association "Princess" title was one of those. You could win x number of years. BUT you had to go through the same process of doing the essay, preforming your ride ( which you choreographed) and interview with the judges. (think beauty pageant!)

              The POINT was that you were upping the competition. The other girls knew that you had won, knew that you had an idea what to expect, and were already experienced at it. It made the competition HARDER.

              I am not saying I think it should be that way just hoping for clarification since most people are simply stating "You can't defend your title because you already won it." Almost like don't question the way it is, it is that way because that is how it has ALWAYS been.....
              EXACTLY what i was getting at
              Author of COTH article "The Other Side of Aaron Vale"

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              • #8
                Most sports titles that you can defend don't have an age limit. If only juniors can compete for these titles, if you had one particularly dominant rider over several years, they'd basically shut out a lot of other people until they age out. Why lock up a spot (or spots, if you two or three prior winners who haven't aged out) when you could have a completely 'fresh' (ie no prior winners) field? The point is to develop MORE juniors, not fewer. They don't have their whole lives to try for Big Eq titles.
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                • #9
                  I agree with danceronice -- the equitation is meant to be a fielding ground for hunter and jumper riders, to develop as many as possible, so you don't want to limit that talent.

                  Also, if you had already won it, why would you want to do it again? As stated above, the equitation is not meant to be an end in and of itself, it is meant to be a stepping stone. If you have won a big eq final, you have proved your capability and dominance in that respect and should move into the big hunters and jumpers. In addition, it would be a bummer to win a final in your penultimate junior year and then compete in it again in your last junior year and not win...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by danceronice View Post
                    Most sports titles that you can defend don't have an age limit. If only juniors can compete for these titles, if you had one particularly dominant rider over several years, they'd basically shut out a lot of other people until they age out. Why lock up a spot (or spots, if you two or three prior winners who haven't aged out) when you could have a completely 'fresh' (ie no prior winners) field? The point is to develop MORE juniors, not fewer. They don't have their whole lives to try for Big Eq titles.
                    I think this is a really good answer. OP knows that you can't, and I think there are a lot of riders out there who would want to try to defend their title. As someone said it takes a lot coming together to win it, which would be a reason TO allow someone (was it just the right magical moment? Or something that can be consistently reproduced?)

                    Interesting question OP, and I think you have a great answer from danceronice.

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                    • #11
                      It's only special once, everything the time you win it falls in to place and everything goes your way. If you are permitted to compete again judges will know that you previously won it and the rider will automatically get a "jump" on the other riders because they proved their dominance. It isn't fair to the other junior riders who dream to win a Big Eq final to be competing against a rider who previously won it. danceronice pretty much hit the nail on the head with their post.

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                      • #12
                        Can't you compete in Talent Search classes even after winning the final, as long as you don't have a gold medal yet?
                        Talking to some people is like folding a fitted sheet.

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                        • #13
                          The qualifying classes yes, but not the finals.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by dp1092 View Post
                            It's only special once, everything the time you win it falls in to place and everything goes your way. If you are permitted to compete again judges will know that you previously won it and the rider will automatically get a "jump" on the other riders because they proved their dominance.
                            Disagree. First of all, I'd like to think that judges are not automatically going to give a rider a "jump" just because they've won an eq final previously.

                            However, judges are human and I'm sure this happens already. There are BNJ (big name juniors? is that a term?) whose names are already recognizable. Brianne Goutal won what, 4? eq finals...I guarantee the judges of the second, third, and fourth knew exactly who she was when she stepped into the ring.

                            And no way are the judges this year not recogizing Lillie Keenan, Victoria Colvin, Sam Schaefer, etc. It already happens that a name can affect a placing. I say can because I have no idea how frequent (or infrequent) it happens. Not trying to start an argument about it. Just saying that its an issue that would not be worsened by allowing past winners to defend their title.

                            I think the reason is that, as previously stated, its a division where you have limited years of eligibility and to have one rider who monopolizes those few years would be unfair.

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                            • #15
                              I don't believe that it makes it any less special for somebody to win it again. Personally, I think it would be even more special to do it twice. That would prove that you are the best of the best and can consistently repeat the same results. It isn't any less special to win two Olympic medals or win the grand prix at Spruce Meadows. As to allowing more people a chance to win, if you can't win against a defending champion then you probably don't deserve to win it. If you can't beat the best, then what does that win mean? I think that they should be able to compete again if they so desire. Are many of them going to move on to larger events and classes? Yes probably. But for those that want to try it again and want to put the work into being good enough to win again, then they should be allowed to do so.

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                              • Original Poster

                                #16
                                Originally posted by kmwines01 View Post
                                I don't believe that it makes it any less special for somebody to win it again. Personally, I think it would be even more special to do it twice. That would prove that you are the best of the best and can consistently repeat the same results. It isn't any less special to win two Olympic medals or win the grand prix at Spruce Meadows. As to allowing more people a chance to win, if you can't win against a defending champion then you probably don't deserve to win it. If you can't beat the best, then what does that win mean? I think that they should be able to compete again if they so desire. Are many of them going to move on to larger events and classes? Yes probably. But for those that want to try it again and want to put the work into being good enough to win again, then they should be allowed to do so.
                                AMEN!!!!!!!!!!! My thoughts exactly!!!!!!
                                Author of COTH article "The Other Side of Aaron Vale"

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                                • #17
                                  To me it's like Miss America. You win ..then move on with your life and others get a chance for the special year.

                                  If you are more than pretty.. winning the final is a stepping stone and you move on to your career
                                  I can explain it TO you,but I can't understand it FOR you

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                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by jumpytoo View Post
                                    To me it's like Miss America. You win ..then move on with your life and others get a chance for the special year.

                                    If you are more than pretty.. winning the final is a stepping stone and you move on to your career
                                    Oooo, good one!

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Because only some could come back while others have aged out. So would we change the rules to allow them back after they aged out? If we didn't but allowed somebody who had not aged out to defend would we be fair? Would a repeat win be worth anything if not every winner had the chance to repeat?

                                      And, you know, these winning kids want to MOVE UP and get out of the 3'6" kid and Green horse classes. Not stay at 3'6" on the off chance they can stay low and win yet again (maybe). Really great athletes don't think that way. Neither do great riders. They move on to the next challenge. Most great trainers teach that way as well.
                                      When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                      The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

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                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by kmwines01 View Post
                                        I don't believe that it makes it any less special for somebody to win it again. Personally, I think it would be even more special to do it twice. That would prove that you are the best of the best and can consistently repeat the same results. It isn't any less special to win two Olympic medals or win the grand prix at Spruce Meadows. As to allowing more people a chance to win, if you can't win against a defending champion then you probably don't deserve to win it. If you can't beat the best, then what does that win mean? I think that they should be able to compete again if they so desire. Are many of them going to move on to larger events and classes? Yes probably. But for those that want to try it again and want to put the work into being good enough to win again, then they should be allowed to do so.
                                        For the Olympics, in every sport with which I'm familiar, you can keep trying until you drop dead of old age. If you can make the cuts, you can defend your title. (Usually that does not work out so well, but people do it.)

                                        These are juniors. You have a very limited time to try for these titles. It's supposed to be developmental as well, not the be-all and end-all of their riding careers. You win, it's a sign you're supposed to think of moving on to the big dogs in the open divisions. It doesn't do the federation any good if their new talent just keeps hanging around in the little pond, relatively speaking. (Over in skating, another Olympic discipline, that would be why the ISU places an age limit on international Junior competition-that's a test level in skating, not just an age--even though you can test and skate at Junior on a national level 'til you're forty if you want. The ISU does not want the best and brightest hanging out in the junior grand prix picking off the kids as they come up, they want them to move on to Seniors, the Olympic division, which is harder because you hit the seasoned older competitors. Equestrian's no different--you want the best juniors to move UP and out into the adult world and work towards that, not racking up as many top junior titles as they can.)

                                        And as findeight points out, what about those who won the last year they were eligible?
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