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College Equestrian

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  • College Equestrian

    Since my daughter is interested in attending a particular college and being part of the riding team, my husband and I decided to attend a "meet" between TCU and the University if South Carolina last Friday at South Carolina. As it turned out, we of course sat with primarily USC parents and friends while watching the flat competition. Everyone around us were very friendly and pleasant. We noted the judge at this event was well known and had also coached an IHSA team.
    One if the first TCU riders was judged with what we considered to be an unusually low score, but we attributed that to something we must have missed being unfamiliar with the flat "patterns". The Next TCU rider had an inexplicably low score, and the next and the next, etc. All of the USC riders (who did ride very well) had unusually high scores we thought by comparison. The chasm between the scores of the teams was hard to ignore and in fact the USC parents were gasping in astonishment as the low scores were announced. The TCU spectators said nothing and we of course kept quiet. After a while, the rumor began that the judge had applied for the recent head Coach position at TCU and was miffed that the position was awarded to another, younger candidate (who was coaching for TCU that day). After being a part of the show circuit for so many years and having to endure some of the slanted political agendas of a few trainers, judges, etc., we are completely disheartened by our recent (and only) experience. We thought the playing field would be leveled by the girls having to each ride a team horse assigned by a draw, but apparently this is sometimes not the case. We are reconsidering our daughters college plans.

  • #2
    ...Reconsidering college plans over one judge? Ok.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by fourhorsepoor View Post
      Since my daughter is interested in attending a particular college and being part of the riding team, my husband and I decided to attend a "meet" between TCU and the University if South Carolina last Friday at South Carolina. As it turned out, we of course sat with primarily USC parents and friends while watching the flat competition. Everyone around us were very friendly and pleasant. We noted the judge at this event was well known and had also coached an IHSA team.
      One if the first TCU riders was judged with what we considered to be an unusually low score, but we attributed that to something we must have missed being unfamiliar with the flat "patterns". The Next TCU rider had an inexplicably low score, and the next and the next, etc. All of the USC riders (who did ride very well) had unusually high scores we thought by comparison. The chasm between the scores of the teams was hard to ignore and in fact the USC parents were gasping in astonishment as the low scores were announced. The TCU spectators said nothing and we of course kept quiet. After a while, the rumor began that the judge had applied for the recent head Coach position at TCU and was miffed that the position was awarded to another, younger candidate (who was coaching for TCU that day). After being a part of the show circuit for so many years and having to endure some of the slanted political agendas of a few trainers, judges, etc., we are completely disheartened by our recent (and only) experience. We thought the playing field would be leveled by the girls having to each ride a team horse assigned by a draw, but apparently this is sometimes not the case. We are reconsidering our daughters college plans.
      What do you mean by "reconsidering?" You don't want your kid to go to college anymore or you don't want her to show IHSA?

      Seems a bit shortsighted to determine ANYTHING after one IHSA show. Would you have made your daughter to quit riding just because she had to show under one biased judge? If she's ever show before she understands that not all judges are created equal.

      And IHSA is like the least amount of commitment you can manage. You're committed to going to lessons and shows when you are a member of the team, but if you don't want to be a member any more, just quit. If she tries IHSA and hates it, she can just quit. It's not like buying a horse or shipping her horse to school and boarding it there. She can show IHSA one day and quit the next. No biggie.

      Just out of curiosity, what were you watching exactly? You mention flat "patterns." English IHSA shows are run like regular equitation classes. People jump individually and then everyone in a division flats together. There may be a ride off for high point rider if two students are tied, but as far as I'm aware, there is not flat pattern portion of an English show...

      Comment


      • #4
        What does a poor judge at one show have to do with a change in your daughter's college selection?

        You should be focusing on finding the correct program that fits her needs.

        Judging will always be a crapshot no matter where you go. It is what it is. I long ago reached the decision that what mattered most was the effort that my horse and I put in and that was the real reward. Anything else was just topping on the cake.
        The rider casts his heart over the fence,
        the horse jumps in pursuit of it.

        –Hans-Heinrich Isenbart

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by AmmyByNature View Post
          What do you mean by "reconsidering?" You don't want your kid to go to college anymore or you don't want her to show IHSA?

          Seems a bit shortsighted to determine ANYTHING after one IHSA show. Would you have made your daughter to quit riding just because she had to show under one biased judge? If she's ever show before she understands that not all judges are created equal.

          And IHSA is like the least amount of commitment you can manage. You're committed to going to lessons and shows when you are a member of the team, but if you don't want to be a member any more, just quit. If she tries IHSA and hates it, she can just quit. It's not like buying a horse or shipping her horse to school and boarding it there. She can show IHSA one day and quit the next. No biggie.

          Just out of curiosity, what were you watching exactly? You mention flat "patterns." English IHSA shows are run like regular equitation classes. People jump individually and then everyone in a division flats together. There may be a ride off for high point rider if two students are tied, but as far as I'm aware, there is not flat pattern portion of an English show...
          She's talking about NCAA showing, not IHSA showing. It's a head to head format with only two teams.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by hj0519 View Post
            She's talking about NCAA showing, not IHSA showing. It's a head to head format with only two teams.
            And they do flat patterns?

            Comment

            • Original Poster

              #7
              The competition we were watching between the two colleges was a Division I meet, not IHSA. The flat portion was ridden individually by each rider and was in a specific pattern, somewhat like a dressage test.

              Very good points about basing a decision on just one experience. Nonetheless, the experience was hugely disappointing especially with such a well known judge and well known equestrian team. Also, the college my daughter is considering would be a Div I school with scholarship money involved so quitting the team would be a problem.

              I guess we were pathetically naive in assuming that this new world would be closer to sunshine and butterflies.


              Originally posted by AmmyByNature View Post
              What do you mean by "reconsidering?" You don't want your kid to go to college anymore or you don't want her to show IHSA?

              Seems a bit shortsighted to determine ANYTHING after one IHSA show. Would you have made your daughter to quit riding just because she had to show under one biased judge? If she's ever show before she understands that not all judges are created equal.

              And IHSA is like the least amount of commitment you can manage. You're committed to going to lessons and shows when you are a member of the team, but if you don't want to be a member any more, just quit. If she tries IHSA and hates it, she can just quit. It's not like buying a horse or shipping her horse to school and boarding it there. She can show IHSA one day and quit the next. No biggie.

              Just out of curiosity, what were you watching exactly? You mention flat "patterns." English IHSA shows are run like regular equitation classes. People jump individually and then everyone in a division flats together. There may be a ride off for high point rider if two students are tied, but as far as I'm aware, there is not flat pattern portion of an English show...

              Comment


              • #8
                I think you might want to observe another horse show before you reconsider- the host facility may not have known that the judge would be so biased (I'm taking you at your word that the judging was obviously so.)

                If they hire that judge again, then yes, I might reconsider the morals of the college program, but the judge probably didn't call USC the night before and say "Your program is winning tomorrow, just so you know."

                To me, the barometer would be the reactions of the USC contingent to the scores. If they acknowledged apparent unfairness, that says more about their ethics as a program.
                "I'm not always sarcastic. Sometimes I'm asleep." - Harry Dresden

                Amy's Stuff - Rustic chic and country linens and decor
                Support my mom! She's gotta finance her retirement horse somehow.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by fourhorsepoor View Post
                  The competition we were watching between the two colleges was a Division I meet, not IHSA. The flat portion was ridden individually by each rider and was in a specific pattern, somewhat like a dressage test.

                  Very good points about basing a decision on just one experience. Nonetheless, the experience was hugely disappointing especially with such a well known judge and well known equestrian team. Also, the college my daughter is considering would be a Div I school with scholarship money involved so quitting the team would be a problem.

                  I guess we were pathetically naive in assuming that this new world would be closer to sunshine and butterflies.
                  Yup. Varsity does change things.

                  But I stand by my statement that basing a huge decision on one judge on one day is shortsighted and a bad idea.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by fourhorsepoor View Post
                    The competition we were watching between the two colleges was a Division I meet, not IHSA. The flat portion was ridden individually by each rider and was in a specific pattern, somewhat like a dressage test.

                    Very good points about basing a decision on just one experience. Nonetheless, the experience was hugely disappointing especially with such a well known judge and well known equestrian team. Also, the college my daughter is considering would be a Div I school with scholarship money involved so quitting the team would be a problem.

                    I guess we were pathetically naive in assuming that this new world would be closer to sunshine and butterflies.
                    It's the horse world, it will never be sunshine and butterflies.

                    I went to an IHSA school and I have many friends who attend/attended NCAA schools. While the programs are very different, there are still some similarities, mainly in that riding can be extremely subjective, and "politics" of the horse world will always come into play. College riding is very competitive, teams want to win, and will do as much as they can to do so. If you/your daughter can't handle that, perhaps she should reconsider college athletics.
                    -----
                    This is not a true story
                    -----

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      And IHSA is like the least amount of commitment you can manage. You're committed to going to lessons and shows when you are a member of the team, but if you don't want to be a member any more, just quit. If she tries IHSA and hates it, she can just quit. It's not like buying a horse or shipping her horse to school and boarding it there. She can show IHSA one day and quit the next. No biggie.
                      This is really not a good way to think about IHSA, I find these comments to be very offensive. It is both a riding and social commitment. Our team spends a lot of time with tryouts and picking new members not only on riding ability but also on compatibility. While we obviously don't want anyone to stay if they really hate it but people should be really making an effort to commit to IHSA, not flippantly join with the plan to quit if everything isn't perfect.

                      We love our team and we are a family, we eat meals together and have social events. While we are financially less of a commitment IHSA teams are just not something to just be walked on and then walk if it's not perfect.

                      To the OP: Your daughter needs to pick her school based on the school, not the riding team. Should riding be taken into consideration? Absolutely but it should not make or break your decision. While being on a DI team is a nice thing many IHSA teams are available at really great schools that may not offer riding scholarships but if your daughter is a good student there are academic scholarships.

                      Please let me know if you have any questions about IHSA, I'd be more than happy to discuss it (both the good and the bad).
                      “It's about the horse and that's it.” - GM

                      !! is the new .

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by *JumpIt* View Post
                        This is really not a good way to think about IHSA, I find these comments to be very offensive. It is both a riding and social commitment. Our team spends a lot of time with tryouts and picking new members not only on riding ability but also on compatibility. While we obviously don't want anyone to stay if they really hate it but people should be really making an effort to commit to IHSA, not flippantly join with the plan to quit if everything isn't perfect.

                        We love our team and we are a family, we eat meals together and have social events. While we are financially less of a commitment IHSA teams are just not something to just be walked on and then walk if it's not perfect.

                        To the OP: Your daughter needs to pick her school based on the school, not the riding team. Should riding be taken into consideration? Absolutely but it should not make or break your decision. While being on a DI team is a nice thing many IHSA teams are available at really great schools that may not offer riding scholarships but if your daughter is a good student there are academic scholarships.

                        Please let me know if you have any questions about IHSA, I'd be more than happy to discuss it (both the good and the bad).
                        I'm not saying that it's a "good" way to think about IHSA, but you can't deny that it's a fact. I rode IHSA. I was president of my team for two years. But not everyone on the team was equally as dedicated. We had plenty of girls who paid their dues and came to lessons and shows for the first month and then dropped off the face of the earth.

                        And it's a moot point anyway -- since the OP's daughter is interested in NCAA, not IHSA.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Politics happen everywhere. I have met the TCU coach and she is excellent. I got to watch her riders practice and was very impressed. Both TCU and South Carolina are great schools. I would not let one incident or gossip effect your decision on whether to have your daughter attend a school or not. You also have to be accepted to a team, which is not an easy feat. Go watch more competitions and visit more schools. You definitely need to meet with the coach and with the schools academic advisor in order to make the right decision.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Just a thought- maybe one team's riders rode with a different frame (longer frame out versus on the vertical); maybe the riders rode with their stirrups on their toes or with the iron across their ball of their foot; maybe one team rides with a closed hip angle versus very upright; maybe one team makes their figures very much into the corners and another does not...... Perhaps the lower scoring team rides in a way that hits on this particular judge's pet peeve.

                            Leo Conroy's article this week was insightful--- The judge that day is experienced and I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt as I was not sitting with her that day.

                            But the NCAA is just like other equestrian organizations, good judges are hired back and those who seem to make mistakes are not.
                            It's 2016. Do you know where your old horse is?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Well, if the rumor was true, and the reason for TCU's low scores was the bias of the judge who didn't get the coaching position, TCU is probably really glad they didn't hire the bitch/bastard!
                              ~Kryswyn~ Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo
                              Check out my Kryswyn JRTs on Facebook

                              "Life is merrier with a terrier!"

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by AmmyByNature View Post
                                And IHSA is like the least amount of commitment you can manage. You're committed to going to lessons and shows when you are a member of the team, but if you don't want to be a member any more, just quit. If she tries IHSA and hates it, she can just quit. It's not like buying a horse or shipping her horse to school and boarding it there. She can show IHSA one day and quit the next. No biggie.
                                Really? Tell that to the girls on the Cazenovia, Centenary, etc who have mandatory work outs and intense schedules and diets.

                                I'm on a SUNY College team which is less intense but you are definitely making a commitment. You can't "just quit" whenever you feel like it.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by AmmyByNature View Post
                                  And IHSA is like the least amount of commitment you can manage. You're committed to going to lessons and shows when you are a member of the team, but if you don't want to be a member any more, just quit. If she tries IHSA and hates it, she can just quit. It's not like buying a horse or shipping her horse to school and boarding it there. She can show IHSA one day and quit the next. No biggie.
                                  I ride for SCAD and we have mandatory 6 am workouts every week along with lessons, required 6 hours minimum of study hall for the freshman, minimum 2.5 GPA requirement, and we help at various other events. So yeah, I would say that IHSA is a huge commitment depending on the school you go to.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by Rel6 View Post
                                    Really? Tell that to the girls on the Cazenovia, Centenary, etc who have mandatory work outs and intense schedules and diets.

                                    I'm on a SUNY College team which is less intense but you are definitely making a commitment. You can't "just quit" whenever you feel like it.
                                    If it's a club team, you absolutely CAN quit whenever you want. You might piss some people off, but there's nothing that they can actually do to you. Note that I'm talking about IHSA, not NCAA.

                                    Originally posted by DNB View Post
                                    I ride for SCAD and we have mandatory 6 am workouts every week along with lessons, required 6 hours minimum of study hall for the freshman, minimum 2.5 GPA requirement, and we help at various other events. So yeah, I would say that IHSA is a huge commitment depending on the school you go to.
                                    Agreed, because IHSA is a CLUB team, the commitment DOES vary widely depending on the school in question. At my school, 13 years ago, we offered some of those things but not all, and they were not mandatory. And I would like to hope that a 2.5 GPA wouldn't be a struggle!

                                    Look, like it or not, IHSA is a club sport and the commitment varies from school to school. You can implement all the rules you want, but in the end the only authority the club would have is to kick you out of the club if you don't do whatever mandatory things the club has decided that you should do. You can't keep someone from quitting a club team. The consequences of quitting a varsity team for which you receive a scholarship are WILDLY different.

                                    My post had nothing to do with trying to piss on IHSA teams. I like them! I was on one for 4 years! I had a great time!

                                    But you also can't tell me that you are locked into them if you end up hating the system or the people. If you want to quit, you can quit.

                                    And as I already said, the OP was talking about NCAA. I replied with respect to IHSA because that's what I WRONGLY assumed she was talking about. NCAA is a whole different ball game.

                                    Although I do stand by my point (the ONLY relevant point, since I know now that she was talking about NCAA) that basing a decision on the actions of ONCE judge on ONE day is shortsighted.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by fourhorsepoor View Post
                                      The competition we were watching between the two colleges was a Division I meet, not IHSA. The flat portion was ridden individually by each rider and was in a specific pattern, somewhat like a dressage test.
                                      Unlike IHSA shows, the NCAA teams compete in a "head-to-head" format. So the same horse is shown by a rider from each team, and whoever gets a higher score on that horse in that class gets a point for her team. That's why they ride individual tests on the flat, so two riders on opposing teams can each get a score on the same horse for comparison.

                                      I agree with those who say it's a bit extreme to make a decision based on one judge at one show.

                                      I do think it's a nice change of pace for kids to show either IHSA or NCAA, since for most kids, it's a new experience to show as part of a team. The kids usually cheer each other on and seem to have a lot of fun with it.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by MHM View Post
                                        Unlike IHSA shows, the NCAA teams compete in a "head-to-head" format. So the same horse is shown by a rider from each team, and whoever gets a higher score on that horse in that class gets a point for her team. That's why they ride individual tests on the flat, so two riders on opposing teams can each get a score on the same horse for comparison.

                                        I agree with those who say it's a bit extreme to make a decision based on one judge at one show.
                                        That's a good idea. It was always tough at IHSA shows to know how judges were going to take into account the horse you drew. Sure, maybe it goes around like a freight train for you, but maybe "freight train" is actually very best that it can possible go and you're riding it beautifully!

                                        Comment

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