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New and Different Amateur Status Question

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  • New and Different Amateur Status Question

    I am not currently showing at all. If and when I decide to get back in the show ring, I will certainly call USEF to get the definitive answer. In the meantime, I wondered what COTH might have to say about this situation...

    I am currently an Equine Science Lecturer at a four-year university. My duties include teaching undergraduate courses in equine science and husbandry and advising the horse-related clubs at the school. As part of this, I am an advisor for our equestrian team. Mostly I sign paperwork and try to oversee team activities, but I will also be attending shows with the team, wiping boots, and, I'm sure, providing input/encouragement when needed. So....how does that affect (or not) my amateur status? I can see it going either way.
    Last edited by Montanas_Girl; Sep. 3, 2011, 08:58 PM.

  • #2
    I think you are smart to check with USEF when the time comes .

    That being said, IMO you would be a proffesional not an amature. It sounds like, as part of your employment, you will be helping the riders out by providing feedback (coaching). Also, I am not sure what you mean by "overseeing team activiites" so I don't know if there is anything problematic there.
    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
    Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

    Comment


    • #3
      You can't be one if you can't spell it. Amateur.

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        Originally posted by Seal Harbor View Post
        You can't be one if you can't spell it. Amateur.
        Ack! I am normally more careful about those kinds of things. Thanks for the double-check!

        As to "overseeing team activities", that generally means making sure meetings are held in a reasonably professional manner, keeping tabs on financial issues, putting out the fires that invariably crop up when you get than many teenage/twenty-something girls involved in an organization, etc.

        The team has a coach separate from my advisor position, so I will not be teaching lessons or coaching at shows, but I'm sure there will be times when a "shoulders back" or "heels down" slips out while I'm watching our riders compete.

        Comment


        • #5
          I would send it up to the USEF. Like you said I can see it going either way. They may consider it similar to a camp counselor.

          Being proactive is the best way to be. I am not sure if you ever were a professional. If you were make sure you follow the reclassification process (even if you never declared it with the USEF) to avoid any problems.

          I am also challenged at times when it comes to spelling.
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          Comment


          • #6
            You can get around it. Would it be considered ethical to all people? Probably not. But are you technically a professional? No. You're getting paid to lecture, not teach. You are definately more involved in the team than our IHSA team's advisor is (he signs paperwork and promotes our fundraisers to the department, end of story) but you are volunteering to be an advisor - it's like giving lessons at no charge and no monetary/gift benefit to you - so yes, you're technically an amateur.

            My NCAA assistant coach was technically a "graduate assistant" and still shows AA shows as a amateur. Granted, she sucks so she's never had anyone so much as think about protesting it, but even if it were to happen, she's technically in the clear.

            Comment


            • #7
              Is advising the team part of your JOB (i.e. in your contract) or something nice you do gratis because you want to be a contributing member of the college community? Because I teach and am paid for a specific class at a local university's law school. I also coach 2 teams (mock trial and a moot court team) but I don't get any money for that. I could stop tomorrow and no one would say boo. If I stopped showing up to teach class, I'd get fired. If you're in a similar situation, and you recieve no renumeration for helping out the riding team... I think that resolves any hint of a problem.
              ~Veronica
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              Comment

              • Original Poster

                #8
                Advising the team is in my job description. Going to the shows is technically out of the goodness of my heart, but I am salaried, so defining when I am "off the clock" is tricky. The team will be providing me a hotel room when needed, but other travel expenses will be out of my pocket.

                I am concerned about how it would appear to others if I were to show as an amateur, even if USEF were to say that I was fine. I am not at all good enough that I would worry about being protested, but, as a representative of my university, it is important that everything I do be completely above board.

                I don't have any plans to ever do the hunters at anything more than a local/schooling circuit again, so my status would matter very little there because there is always an open/schooling/low/whatever class at all heights. But I am considering getting back into breed shows (Arabs) in the next year or so, and my amateur status would certainly affect our success on that circuit.

                As I said in my original post, I will call USEF if and when I do start showing again. It looks like you all are as undecided as I am about this particular situation.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I see your advising the team as no different than a barn's "show secretary" who rides as an amateur. Teaching college equine courses is not the same as teaching riding or training horses. And you are not a member of USEF so I wouldn't even worry about the Ammy rule until you decide to compete again and if you are still doing your same job. There are plenty of barns who have "show secretarys" who ride as amateurs.. I know of one who was definitely in violation of the rule, won top classes and year-end awards, everyone knew she was in violation but did nothing about it; but there are others who probably stick to the letter of the rule.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    OK here is another...I think I know the answer but thought I would ask...What about galloping racehorses (for $) and showing as an amateur in adult jumpers?
                    The thing about smart people, is they look like crazy people, to dumb people.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Galloping racehorses for pay I believe eliminates you from being considered an ammy.

                      OP, I think you would be fine to compete as an ammy since it doesn't sound like you are in a *coaching* position, but more of a team *manager* position. I'd send something to USEF and ask though.
                      Trying a life outside of FEI tents and hotel rooms.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jumphigh83 View Post
                        OK here is another...I think I know the answer but thought I would ask...What about galloping racehorses (for $) and showing as an amateur in adult jumpers?
                        I find it strange, but I think that in the past there has been an exemption for galloping racehorses for $$ and that it does not necessarily affect ammy status. I don't know how it is handled currently, the best bet would be to contact the USEF.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BeeHoney View Post
                          I find it strange, but I think that in the past there has been an exemption for galloping racehorses for $$ and that it does not necessarily affect ammy status. I don't know how it is handled currently, the best bet would be to contact the USEF.
                          I have a friend who contacted usef on this issue and they consider it two different disciplines. I dont know how half the people at the track actually stay on. Some of them are kind of scary.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by jay0087 View Post
                            I have a friend who contacted usef on this issue and they consider it two different disciplines.
                            This confuses me...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Annandale View Post
                              This confuses me...
                              Yes, it is confusing, because the same is NOT true for other out of discipline professional activities. For example, if you exercise driving horses or train Arabians in hand for money, you would most certainly be considered a pro by the USEF when you went to show in the hunter ring. Perhaps someone more in the know could explain.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Originally posted by BeeHoney View Post
                                Yes, it is confusing, because the same is NOT true for other out of discipline professional activities.
                                Right, exactly! I would love to get an explanation on this.

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Rio Blanco View Post
                                  You can get around it. Would it be considered ethical to all people? Probably not. But are you technically a professional? No. You're getting paid to lecture, not teach. You are definately more involved in the team than our IHSA team's advisor is (he signs paperwork and promotes our fundraisers to the department, end of story) but you are volunteering to be an advisor - it's like giving lessons at no charge and no monetary/gift benefit to you - so yes, you're technically an amateur.

                                  My NCAA assistant coach was technically a "graduate assistant" and still shows AA shows as a amateur. Granted, she sucks so she's never had anyone so much as think about protesting it, but even if it were to happen, she's technically in the clear.
                                  Originally posted by vxf111 View Post
                                  Is advising the team part of your JOB (i.e. in your contract) or something nice you do gratis because you want to be a contributing member of the college community? Because I teach and am paid for a specific class at a local university's law school. I also coach 2 teams (mock trial and a moot court team) but I don't get any money for that. I could stop tomorrow and no one would say boo. If I stopped showing up to teach class, I'd get fired. If you're in a similar situation, and you recieve no renumeration for helping out the riding team... I think that resolves any hint of a problem.
                                  Originally posted by chizzle View Post
                                  I see your advising the team as no different than a barn's "show secretary" who rides as an amateur. Teaching college equine courses is not the same as teaching riding or training horses. And you are not a member of USEF so I wouldn't even worry about the Ammy rule until you decide to compete again and if you are still doing your same job. There are plenty of barns who have "show secretarys" who ride as amateurs.. I know of one who was definitely in violation of the rule, won top classes and year-end awards, everyone knew she was in violation but did nothing about it; but there are others who probably stick to the letter of the rule.
                                  The problem is that she is paid by the university and you can not parse out what you are and are not paid for. Therefore, if she, as a university employee goes to the shows and coaches the rides with "sit up striaght", "sholders back" "heels down", etc, I believe she would technically be considered a professional. I doubt, however, she would be protested.
                                  Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
                                  Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    Originally posted by jay0087 View Post
                                    I have a friend who contacted usef on this issue and they consider it two different disciplines. I dont know how half the people at the track actually stay on. Some of them are kind of scary.
                                    Originally posted by Annandale View Post
                                    This confuses me...
                                    Originally posted by BeeHoney View Post
                                    Yes, it is confusing, because the same is NOT true for other out of discipline professional activities. For example, if you exercise driving horses or train Arabians in hand for money, you would most certainly be considered a pro by the USEF when you went to show in the hunter ring. Perhaps someone more in the know could explain.
                                    I have no clue, but perhaps it is because racing has no showing component to the sport?
                                    Auventera Two:Some women would eat their own offspring if they had some dipping sauce.
                                    Serious Leigh: it sounds like her drama llama should be an old schoolmaster by now.

                                    Comment


                                    • #19
                                      Originally posted by RockinHorse View Post
                                      I have no clue, but perhaps it is because racing has no showing component to the sport?
                                      What I have overheard in the past from USEF, if you are paid to ride horses in a discipline not recognized by USEF (race horses, pole bending, trail riding) and you never compete in the "unrecognized" discipline, it seems USEF does not care or realizes enforcing their rules that far out of their jurisdiction would be too difficult? I don't know.

                                      But I do know it is a pretty common occurrence for up and coming young adult (ammy) event riders to be galloping on the track. If you're a full time student at the O'Connor's they will send you to the track, and David (USEF pres) will still let you ride as an ammy.

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Originally posted by jay0087 View Post
                                        I have a friend who contacted usef on this issue and they consider it two different disciplines. I dont know how half the people at the track actually stay on. Some of them are kind of scary.
                                        I don't know who they talked to but if you are paid to ride horses in any capacity you are a professional, not an amateur. That includes galloping horses at the track.

                                        Comment

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