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Thoroughbred Hunters

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  • #61
    I was talking to the daughter of a German horse professional yesterday who groomed for the German dressage team at the LA Olympics. The mother had grown up riding TBs in the German system, so the daughter asked her for me what were her impressions of them as riding horses. Mind you, the mother and daughter have both been riding nothing but German type dressage horses for years, so the description seemed to me to be based on a comparison.

    According to the mother, TBs are very light in the mouth, very easy to train, forward, very intelligent, with lots of desire to try and to partner with the rider. When asked why they are not used more as sport horses, the mother, looking at things from a dressage perspective, said that their conformation in the hind end generally did not lend itself to a very top quality extended trot.

    I thought that was interesting.
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    • #62
      Originally posted by PineTreeFarm View Post
      Most USEF rated sections ( ASB, Arab, half Arab etc) ARE breed restricted divisions and you need to provide registry papers to compete in those classes. Hunters, Jumpers, Dressage and Eventing are some of the exceptions to the breed specific divisions.

      Dressage shows are able to offer IBC as part of their sporthorse breeding division. R314 states "these following classes do not count toward HOTY awards unless included in the specific division award rules"
      For Dressage breeding the annual awards are managed by USDF but run at USEF rated shows.

      For those that feel there are no TB's showing in Zone II I think you'll find a bunch of them showing in Childrens Hunter Horse, Adult Ammie Hunters and Childrens/Amateur jumpers.
      In fact in one section of Childrens Hunter horses 4 of the top 10 ranked horses at year end 2010 are listed as TB's.

      If a TB is competing as a Hunter it simply needs to match the performance standards. That's true of any breed or any cross breed showing in that division. A short strided WB and a short strided TB can't make the distances. a normal strided horse can regardless of the breed.

      Creating a special division for TB's implies that they suck and can't compete on their own merits. That's just wrong.

      I have WB's and TB's.I'm older. One of the WB's I own is too spooky for me to ride. However the 5 year old bred for sport TB suits me just fine
      No, creating a special division for TBs may help with the problem of too many of them ending up in the kill pens.
      Last edited by muzknme; Aug. 24, 2011, 06:22 AM.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
        I was talking to the daughter of a German horse professional yesterday who groomed for the German dressage team at the LA Olympics. The mother had grown up riding TBs in the German system, so the daughter asked her for me what were her impressions of them as riding horses. Mind you, the mother and daughter have both been riding nothing but German type dressage horses for years, so the description seemed to me to be based on a comparison.

        According to the mother, TBs are very light in the mouth, very easy to train, forward, very intelligent, with lots of desire to try and to partner with the rider. When asked why they are not used more as sport horses, the mother, looking at things from a dressage perspective, said that their conformation in the hind end generally did not lend itself to a very top quality extended trot.

        I thought that was interesting.
        It is interesting to consider that dressage horses "used to" be Lippizans and other baroque-type deals with the goal being to achieve the utmost in collection culminating in the airs above the ground...until somehow the standards changed and an emphasis on the extended gaits was developed in competition circles and the high school moves that the baroques are so good at eliminated which just so happened to be more in line with what the Germans were breeding...


        Meanwhile, the Cadre Noir "mainly uses Thoroughbreds, Anglo-Arabs, Hanoverians and Selle-Francais" (which the Selle Francais itself is a heavily crossed TB/Arab/Anglo situation).
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        • #64
          Originally posted by Rodolpho614 View Post
          But thats just it, thoroughbreds aren't bred to be quiet. Not saying that every warmblood is a comatose beast on four legs, but they descend from cold blooded farm horses, so their quiet temperaments date back to when they were on the farm plowing fields, or standing quiet and resolute during battle.

          Thoroughbreds on the other hand, were always bred for their athleticism, which many times comes hand in hand with a hot temperament. And because the main goal for the thoroughbred breeding wise has not changed for many years, many still retain that hot temperament.

          Now of course, there are exceptions to every rule. The thoroughbred I had growing up naturally was very quiet, but his brain was fried from some owner before me who saw his quiet demeanor and tried to make a jumper out of him to quickly. And I know many "warmbloods" who are very hot, but again if you look at their breeding, they have some "hot" horses, be it thoroughbreds or arabians in their pedigree.

          This makes no sense to me. WBs should be bred for athleticism as well. Most of the imported WBs were created to be athletic jumpers where temperment is not paramount. I don't believe the intended purpose of the German breeding program is amatuer friendly 3' horses.

          BTW, when all the horses at our barn had to be kept in for a number of days due to weather, my horse (an OTTB) did not have to be lunged before I got on and was very good. Most of the WBs did need to be lunged and some of them were still silly.
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          • #65
            Originally posted by Madeline View Post
            Unfortunately, I don't believe that TB's , as a group, are well suited to living in a 10X10 stall with no turnout for weeks on end, plonking slowly around over 3' courses and remaining ammy-friendly. Since that's where the big bucks are, I'm not seeing a comeback any time soon. Even if TB's had their own division, the judging, the courses and trainer-mindset would have to change.
            You havent meat my 3 then. All of them are on copious amounts of grain, love stabling at the shows and are as dead kicking quiet as they come. Actually, out of the 7 thoroughbreds at the farm (most are warmbloods), they are much quieter than the WBs...especially in the winter!

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            • #66
              Originally posted by vineyridge View Post
              I was talking to the daughter of a German horse professional yesterday who groomed for the German dressage team at the LA Olympics. The mother had grown up riding TBs in the German system, so the daughter asked her for me what were her impressions of them as riding horses. Mind you, the mother and daughter have both been riding nothing but German type dressage horses for years, so the description seemed to me to be based on a comparison.

              According to the mother, TBs are very light in the mouth, very easy to train, forward, very intelligent, with lots of desire to try and to partner with the rider. When asked why they are not used more as sport horses, the mother, looking at things from a dressage perspective, said that their conformation in the hind end generally did not lend itself to a very top quality extended trot.

              I thought that was interesting.
              So true!!! They are built for racing, and at sucha young age, need a brain to accept training. I have never seen a TB have the amazing collection/extension that a well bred warmblood or boroque horse has.

              HUNTER is so north americanalized...it changes as fads change. In the 70/80's a forward moving hand gallop, easy jumping style (tidy knees, but not necessarily huge bascule) over natural fences is what represented hunter. Now, its who can jump rounder than a ball with a backwards pace and knees to the eyeballs.

              I think a Thoroughbred in these days (with good jumping talent), is going to excell in the hunter derbys and handy hunter classes. I find there are still many judges who prefer the ways of a thoroughbred over a warmblood - or maybe they are just prefering a more forward ride?

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              • #67
                Originally posted by RockinHorse View Post
                This makes no sense to me. WBs should be bred for athleticism as well. Most of the imported WBs were created to be athletic jumpers where temperment is not paramount. I don't believe the intended purpose of the German breeding program is amatuer friendly 3' horses.

                BTW, when all the horses at our barn had to be kept in for a number of days due to weather, my horse (an OTTB) did not have to be lunged before I got on and was very good. Most of the WBs did need to be lunged and some of them were still silly.
                Yes warmbloods of today are being bred for their athleticism, but the point I'm trying to get across is that they descended from cold blooded work horses, while the thoroughbreds aren't. You'll notice many times when you see the very fiery modern jumper type warmblood of today that they have quite a lot of thoroughbred blood in them, which was intended to give them the athleticism the thoroughbreds have. But again, as I also stated, many times with athleticism comes hot fiery temperaments, which are not ammy friendly.

                Also many of the horses we see today in our hunter rings that were imports were horses the Europeans didn't think would help their breeding program. This means, I'm just inferring and drawing conclusions on my own so if anyone has real answers to this please chime in to better enlighten me, that the breeders in Europe are also not breeding for ammy friendly 3' horses, but are breeding for the grand prix potential horses. So the horses that they are exporting to us Americans for the hunter circuit are their "rejects", because they have no use for the quiet horse that tops at 3'.
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                • #68
                  Originally posted by SquishTheBunny View Post
                  I think a Thoroughbred in these days (with good jumping talent), is going to excell in the hunter derbys and handy hunter classes. I find there are still many judges who prefer the ways of a thoroughbred over a warmblood - or maybe they are just prefering a more forward ride?
                  But when do you think this is going to happen? So far, it hasn't. The Hunter Derby is two years old at this point (I believe; correct me if I'm wrong) and there was only one Thoroughbred entered in the finals this year (according to sources that chimed in here - I admit that I didn't confirm this). What are all the owners of TBs waiting for and when are they going to get in on the action and put the WBs in their place?

                  It's not fair in my opinion to place blame on the judges - they can only judge the horses that are placed before them.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by ynl063w View Post
                    But when do you think this is going to happen? So far, it hasn't. The Hunter Derby is two years old at this point (I believe; correct me if I'm wrong) and there was only one Thoroughbred entered in the finals this year (according to sources that chimed in here - I admit that I didn't confirm this). What are all the owners of TBs waiting for and when are they going to get in on the action and put the WBs in their place?

                    It's not fair in my opinion to place blame on the judges - they can only judge the horses that are placed before them.
                    Who knows, but I bet a bunch are TB/WB crosses.
                    THe hunter derby in the states may only be 2 years old, but inOntario handy hunter classes havebeen running for quite some time. I always get a high score with my TB in these classes.

                    I think for themost part, you dont see them as much because there arent that many TB's specifically bredfor hunters. Most are racetrack rejects. A lot of hunters bred in the states are of cross breeds that make up an ideal today hunter (ie. warmblood/tb).

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by ynl063w View Post
                      But when do you think this is going to happen? So far, it hasn't. The Hunter Derby is two years old at this point (I believe; correct me if I'm wrong) and there was only one Thoroughbred entered in the finals this year (according to sources that chimed in here - I admit that I didn't confirm this). What are all the owners of TBs waiting for and when are they going to get in on the action and put the WBs in their place?

                      It's not fair in my opinion to place blame on the judges - they can only judge the horses that are placed before them.
                      I am itching to get my TB out in those Hunter Derby classes but like someone else stated, my horse was accesible to my price range though I later spent that by putting lots of lesson miles on him with a very good trainer, and some good (rated) showing in him the first year, then you know the whole money thing happens, only can do the local stuff, totally can't afford to campaign for a year and ship out to any finals, though I know the Hunter Derbies are what he was meant for..
                      If only horses would use their athletic powers for good instead of evil. ~ MHM

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                      • #71
                        Unfortunately, I don't believe that TB's , as a group, are well suited to living in a 10X10 stall with no turnout for weeks on end, plonking slowly around over 3' courses and remaining ammy-friendly. Since that's where the big bucks are, I'm not seeing a comeback any time soon. Even if TB's had their own division, the judging, the courses and trainer-mindset would have to change.
                        It's pretty sad that is what is rewarded now- the ability to remain sane while being cooped up. However, the OTTB should be fairly used to that environment from the track- the stall living, lack of turnout, general environment.

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                        • #72
                          Personally, I'll take a good TB over a WB any day. Some People mistakenly think WBs are more amateur-friendly....and I cry BS from experience. My last horse which I sold to a pro was a WB and she was satan's mistress. Damn thing reared and her first answer was always "no".

                          My TB hunter was forward and delightful. He came off the track sound and sane and was a great show partner for 10 years.

                          I don't think we'll see a be resurgence of TB Hunters because of one thing....$$$. A trainer can make a lot more money in commissions selling you a WB than what a typical TB will go for. (I might start a separate thread about this)

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                          • #73
                            To back up a bit, I'm a little confused about all of these weak-boned sprinters everyone is talking about. Sure, they exist, but so do the heavier-boned, more substantial TBs. I've owned four TBs now, spread out over 25 years, and they've all been pretty large-bodied. I also remember just as many lighter-boned TBs 20+ years ago.

                            Yes, at the track the horses are racing-fit and do not look like hunters. Or jumpers. Or eventers. They look like racehorses- and usually they are very young, too- not nearly done growing and filling out. But reconditioning and the non-racing lifestyle usually produces a far different animal. My last two TBs both looked like abandoned orphans when I got them, and turned into big, hunky guys in a relatively short amount of time. Even my friend's little OTTB, who really does look like a sprinter, evolved into a fancy little chunk of a hunter with the right mix of care and training.

                            I think people like to jump onto ideas like this to help explain things but just scrolling through all of the OTTBs I've ridden or just come across in the last few years there are as many big boned ones out there as flimsier models. The truth is that, as others have mentioned, WBs became the type of horse to have, eventually they replaced the TB, and they are marketed better.

                            If I have big bucks to spend what is more appealing? Going to Europe and being treated like a VIP for a week or two, seeing tons of well-trained hunter prospects with a dressage and jumper background (or having my trainer go fetch them and trying them out back in the States); OR, going to the track and picking out some weedy, upside-down muscled three year old who I can only see trot in hand and who possibly looks a little wild-eyed after his brief stint out of his stall? And, of great importance to many buyers- which of these prospects can step off the trailer/plane (or quarantine facility, actually) and go compete in an AAAAAA (I'm losing count- they keep adding letters) show?

                            Of course TBs can win in the hunters, and the jumpers- they do all over the place. They are the minority because they aren't in fashion for both surface, shallow reasons and for practical ones. One of my junior horses was a purpose-bred hunter from a TB farm- that is what they produced, not race horses. This kind of farm died out with the WB Invasion, so the only other option became an OTTB. OTTBs: not in style, perceived to be crazy by too many people, not attractive to big-money buyers or their trainers, who (let's be honest) often live much better lives with bigger commissions!

                            Just as in politics perception in the horse world is often stronger than reality. I think the perceptions in this case are changing somewhat, but you can argue all day long and never convince Fancy-Pants Rider X that she will be better off with an OTTB, no matter how pretty and fancy and successful in the ring he is, than with a WB. That's her problem, but until there are more organizations rehabbing OTTBs like CANTER and showing them and chunking them up and giving them toplines and allowing people to see what a great horse can come out of something less-than-promising looking- well, we aren't going to see hordes of people flocking to the track for their next A-show hunter. Too bad for them, but it does make a lot of sense given the options and the circumstances.
                            You can take a line and say it isn't straight- but that won't change its shape. Jets to Brazil

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                            • #74
                              [/QUOTE]HUNTER is so north americanalized...it changes as fads change. In the 70/80's a forward moving hand gallop, easy jumping style (tidy knees, but not necessarily huge bascule) over natural fences is what represented hunter. Now, its who can jump rounder than a ball with a backwards pace and knees to the eyeballs.

                              I think a Thoroughbred in these days (with good jumping talent), is going to excell in the hunter derbys and handy hunter classes. I find there are still many judges who prefer the ways of a thoroughbred over a warmblood - or maybe they are just prefering a more forward ride?[/QUOTE]

                              Clearly I screwed up the quote feature-this is from Squish

                              I think this is so true! Great post! I have found that my TB is being rewarded in the derby and handy classes. I am not rewarded in the typical hunter ring. My guy really doesn't have hunter movement, but in the derby I have found that they really are rewarding brilliance that they don't in the ring. He has a good jump and a decent canter, but is definitely not of today's hunter quality. He would have probably done great in the 80's-sigh.
                              Last edited by Madaketmomma; Aug. 25, 2011, 02:00 PM. Reason: I have no idea what I am doing. Clearly

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                              • #75
                                I prefer the topline of a TB over a flat backed Hanoverian. I also respect a TBs work ethic. And in ten years of retraining TBs off the track I have had two "hot" horses. Maybe I'm lucky, maybe it is a reflection of the change in environment, or maybe it is prrof that the stereotype just doesn't fit. Each to his own!
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                                • #76
                                  Not real Division savy here; but thinking that the Dressage groups have year end awards for breeds - maybe if the USEF doesn't do this already they should hold year end awards or division awards based on breed divisions including TB's... (?)
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                                  • #77
                                    Originally posted by foursocks View Post
                                    To back up a bit, I'm a little confused about all of these weak-boned sprinters everyone is talking about. Sure, they exist, but so do the heavier-boned, more substantial TBs. I've owned four TBs now, spread out over 25 years, and they've all been pretty large-bodied. I also remember just as many lighter-boned TBs 20+ years ago.
                                    Agreed! Also, TB bones are much denser than bone of WB's, so even when they appear dainty, they can usually hold up pretty well.

                                    A lot of the breakdowns you here about on the track are due to bad footing. Santa Anita and Del Mar work their butts off experimenting and testing and changing things, and they still aren't down to where they want to be safety wise. Then other small tracks simply pack and harrow... And we wonder why...
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                                    • #78
                                      Rood and Riddle, the Lexington vets, sponsored a year end award last year for the best TB sport horse. That was across all USEF disciplines. It's supposed to be an annual award. Last year, Courageous Comet, the event horse, won.
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