Thoroughbred Hunters

[RockinHorse]

All that aside, the courses are not the problem, the judging is not the problem, or TB's being ammy friendly, or environmentally challenged... the problem is that if they are not in the dang ring they can't win, and we cannot expect a TB or any breed for that matter that is developed in someones backyard , by a weekend warrior to go out compete and win against any horse, regardless of breed, that is developed properly for their discipline.

^ This

[RockinHorse]

Madeline, my point is that you can find TBs that are suited to today's standards. It doesn't have to be about training something unsuitable. I have a TB of my own. If he went any faster than "slow-moving" he would leave out strides.

I agree, however, part of the problem seems to be that people want a TB because they can get them cheap. In my experience, and I ride and show mostly TBs, the good ones that really measure up as a show hunter are hard to find as $500 "rescues".

An attractive, athletic, well balanced, even tempered TB frequently comes with a decent price tag.

[muzknme]

Yes! They said the are going to try to implement it, might be a while, but they definitely consider it. They also said they are trying to release some new programs for OTTB's that help them find their way into the show ring. Fingers crossed!!!

That's great! If there is anything the rest of us can do, let us know! I know lots of TB supporters who would be glad to lend a voice!

[muzknme]

I'm quoting the post above, but my reply is to many posts on this thread.

Why not just ask the Powers That Be to create a division for horses that don't measure up to the show hunters of today? That is really what all of you are asking for. All the judges are looking for is a quality show hunter; they really don't know or care what the breed might be. Get your Thoroughbreds out there and show them to the judges - if they are the quality animals you all claim them to be, they will be rewarded. The Hunter Derbies are what all of you TB enthusiasts have been asking for for years - get them out there and prove your point.

If judges are going to count strides and pin slow moving WB's who jump in an exaggerated style designed to make it look like they're really sweating to get up in the air, a light and agile efficient-jumping TB is not going to be successful no matter how much you train it.

If the judges are looking for Rottweilers, even the best trained Irish Setter will not get a look....

I agree with Madeline. And this discussion wasn't really intended to debate whether TBs or Warmbloods are better show hunters and which would beat the other. The more imoprtant issue is to help solve the problem of TBs who are no longer suited for the track. It seems to me that there are a lot of perfectly useful horses going to auctions and rescues that are filled to the brim. Wouldn't a divisions just for them encourage a lot of people to give them homes and useful lives?

[Madeline]

Madeline, my point is that you can find TBs that are suited to today's standards. It doesn't have to be about training something unsuitable. I have a TB of my own. If he went any faster than "slow-moving" he would leave out strides.

Exactly my point. Your TB would probably blow the WB's out of the water if flow and movement were rewarded rather than stride counting.

[vineyridge]

Perhaps the USEF could consider having a Breed Division for Thoroughbreds, just as they have breed divisions for Saddlebreds, Connies, etc. If riders could chase points within the Breed, the best ones would graduate to Open classes.

And if chips were required for TB registration, there would be no difficulty regarding Breed, for OTTBs and not OTTBs.

Chris Hector of Australia's The Horse Magazine has just done an article on OTTBs there in eventing. It talks about the American Bred thoroughbred in that context. One thought that one does take from the article is that a really well bred TB can be an excellent sport horse at least half the time.

[DLee]

I would love to see a class filled with Thoroughbreds where I KNEW that's what they all were. It's very true that sometimes you can't tell, and I think it's true that they still carry a stigma for a lot of people.
What a great way to possibly get more Thoroughbreds appreciated and used!

[PineTreeFarm]

Breed restricted classes are pretty much a no no as USEF rated sections. See GR314. USEF just determined dressage shows cannot hold any breed restricted classes, except as exhibitions. It would be better to do these classes through local associations or maybe USHJA.

Most USEF rated sections ( ASB, Arab, half Arab etc) ARE breed restricted divisions and you need to provide registry papers to compete in those classes. Hunters, Jumpers, Dressage and Eventing are some of the exceptions to the breed specific divisions.

Dressage shows are able to offer IBC as part of their sporthorse breeding division. R314 states "these following classes do not count toward HOTY awards unless included in the specific division award rules"
For Dressage breeding the annual awards are managed by USDF but run at USEF rated shows.

For those that feel there are no TB's showing in Zone II I think you'll find a bunch of them showing in Childrens Hunter Horse, Adult Ammie Hunters and Childrens/Amateur jumpers.
In fact in one section of Childrens Hunter horses 4 of the top 10 ranked horses at year end 2010 are listed as TB's.

If a TB is competing as a Hunter it simply needs to match the performance standards. That's true of any breed or any cross breed showing in that division. A short strided WB and a short strided TB can't make the distances. a normal strided horse can regardless of the breed.

Creating a special division for TB's implies that they suck and can't compete on their own merits. That's just wrong.

I have WB's and TB's.I'm older. One of the WB's I own is too spooky for me to ride. However the 5 year old bred for sport TB suits me just fine

[Hauwse]

Agreed.

One thing that's rarely mentioned when this subject comes up is that the TB of today, particularly OTTBs, look nothing like the TBs of 20+ years ago when they dominated the sport. Some sporthorse TB breeders get it...A Fine Romance comes to mind. Seriously people, pull up his confo shot and take a look. Then go compare his conformation to all the posted photos of OTTBs trying to find a new career. The difference is night and day.

I think TBs are phenomenal athletes...but the racing industry has, for quite some time, been breeding and racing horses with conformation that does not lend itself well to the H/J industry anymore. It's just the way it is. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I can guarantee that the major one is that TB breeders breed for the sale ring, track and how they race today...they could give a tinker's damn about any career beyond that.

A good horse is a good horse is a good horse. I love QHs. I'd love to find a great hunter prospect that is a QH. But I'm not holding my breath. It's just not what they're bred to do and I'm not going to try and fit a square peg into a round hole, particularly when I can find a horse more suited to do the intended job.

I have to disagree with the idea that today's TB's are so much different that they are no longer suitable for the hunter/jumper ring.

The theory that the racing industry has been breeding for speed has been around since I was a kid and, my father who is in his late 70's says it has been around since he was a kid. It is a more so than not, the same old "they don't build them like they used to" lamenting.

While things have changed and there is more breeding for speed here in the states, it is a moot point because speed or distance breeding has nothing to do with a horses ability in the hunter/jumper ring. Many, many of our best TB's were bred to be pure speed horses.

If you look at the dosage index's of TB's that have been successful as hunter/jumpers they majority were well above the average's of today's modern thoroughbred.

All this being said it has nothing to do with the hunter/jumper ring; you have to find the right horse for the right job. Not everything with Western European bloodlines is suited for the hunter/jumper ring either, you still have to find the right ones to be successful.

Thoroughbred, Oldenburg, Appendix or any cross or combination can do in the ring , and they don't need a special division to do so, they need excellent development to achieve their potential, and the rest will come.

It is counter intuitive but the TB's accessibility is it's Achilles heel. The current price of OTTB's being $2.5K or less makes them accessible to anyone who has an interest in horses. Out of every 100 OTTB's sold, probably 10 of them ever really end up in a solid development program, compared to WB's, who are much less accessible, where probably 90 out of every 100 end up in solid development programs. It ends up being like comparing the earning potential of kids raised in the hills of WV, or the urban hoods, to kids raised in the affluent burbs anywhere, no development, no success, with TB only classes are the equivalent to a GED.

No, for TB's to succeed they have to compete and succeed in the same ring as any other horse.

Nothing against A Fine Romance, but I see TB's of his type all the time, which is not surprising as his bloodlines are fairly common in TB's. If you look for lines like Ksar, Dark Ronald, Black Toney, Teddy, Roi Herode, St. Simon, Phlaris in a horses pedigree you will get bloodlines very similar to A Fine Romance due to the closed studbook, and there are plenty of them out there.

[showmom858]

I just wanted to say that we have not found any prejudice when my D shows her TB in junior hunters at AA rated shows. When her horse puts in the best trip he is rewarded for his efforts. He is able to hold his own against some very fancy horses and my D has a blast showing him. He did well in a very tough division at junior hunter finals this year. Her horse has a beautiful jump and easily makes the strides and has the best hand gallop around!

[Madeline]

The theory that the racing industry has been breeding for speed has been around since I was a kid and, my father who is in his late 70's says it has been around since he was a kid. It is a more so than not, the same old "they don't build them like they used to" lamenting.

All this being said it has nothing to do with the hunter/jumper ring; you have to find the right horse for the right job. Not everything with Western European bloodlines is suited for the hunter/jumper ring either, you still have to find the right ones to be successful.

I think that if more hores show folk looked at mature, full grown TB's rather than 2 & 3 year olds and horses that are still at the track, they would realize that TB's are not all weedy little things.

Go to http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-raci...-lists/general and look through some photos. What's not to like? Plus they can move.

It is counter intuitive but the TB's accessibility is it's Achilles heel. The current price of OTTB's being $2.5K or less makes them accessible to anyone who has an interest in horses. Out of every 100 OTTB's sold, probably 10 of them ever really end up in a solid development program, compared to WB's, who are much less accessible, where probably 90 out of every 100 end up in solid development programs. It ends up being like comparing the earning potential of kids raised in the hills of WV, or the urban hoods, to kids raised in the affluent burbs anywhere, no development, no success, with TB only classes are the equivalent to a GED.

Absolutely. Trainers can't make a living selling $2500 or even $10k horses...

[meupatdoes]

It is counter intuitive but the TB's accessibility is it's Achilles heel. The current price of OTTB's being $2.5K or less makes them accessible to anyone who has an interest in horses. Out of every 100 OTTB's sold, probably 10 of them ever really end up in a solid development program, compared to WB's, who are much less accessible, where probably 90 out of every 100 end up in solid development programs.

Exactly this.

Very few people import a WB from over seas with absolutely ZERO plans of it ever seeing a pro ride or them taking a lesson.

However this happens all the time with ottbs. People buy them, figure they rode a couple greenies in lessons back when so everything should go swimmingly, f*ck around cluelessly with no help as they have NO INTENTIONS WHATSOEVER of taking regular lessons or having someone do pro-rides, or if they do have any intentions of taking lessons then they are absolutely LAST on the priority list BEHIND showing, then they post on COTH asking "I have this very basic training problem that a pro could fix in five minutes, what do I do, what do I do????" and yet another promising horse is completely wasted in a nothing 'program'.

The WB meanwhile comes off the plane and goes straight into a consistent program with regular pro-rides, weekly lessons, and progressive showing. The DIY TB goes to the horseshows 200 lbs underweight (since we would rather show then spend extra on food) never having seen a trainer in its post-track life while the WB gets two pro-rides around the schooling hunters and a trip around the Baby Green division before the amateur owner even dares to do the pre-adults.

Well, there are plenty of $3,000 horses out there who too could be $50,000 horses if their owner would take a GD lesson or put a pro up every once in a while.

S A McKee, I am still wondering where, exactly, you think US breeders are selling their horses to. It must all be people who doodle around in the woods with no intention of making up the horse. Apparently I, a lawyer by trade who has been making up my own US bred 3'6" hunter from the day I first swung a leg over him on the longe line when he was 3.5yo, do not exist as a buying demographic. And my trainer, who just posted on FB a video of her homebred's first 30 days, also doesn't exist, because ACTUALLY she is REALLY buying 1.40 horses from Europe and that video and that foal growing up in the barn was just a mirage.

I mean, yes, there is a huge market for European horses and a lot of people bring them over. But to just deny that a whole US market exists as well and to say that categorically no one trains horses from the ages of 3-7 in this country anymore is a little over the top as well.

[S A McKee]

S A McKee, I am still wondering where, exactly, you think US breeders are selling their horses to. It must all be people who doodle around in the woods with no intention of making up the horse. Apparently I, a lawyer by trade who has been making up my own US bred 3'6" hunter from the day I first swung a leg over him on the longe line when he was 3.5yo, do not exist as a buying demographic. And my trainer, who just posted on FB a video of her homebred's first 30 days, also doesn't exist, because ACTUALLY she is REALLY buying 1.40 horses from Europe and that video and that foal growing up in the barn was just a mirage.

I mean, yes, there is a huge market for European horses and a lot of people bring them over. But to just deny that a whole US market exists as well and to say that categorically no one trains horses from the ages of 3-7 in this country anymore is a little over the top as well.

Well, the US WB Breeders aren't selling many to the folks who want a ready to show 3'6" horse. and that was the point. Those horses are not readily available for sale in the US.
That's for sure.

Some of the US breeders have stopped breeding or cut back because they can't move their current 'inventory'.
Some sell yearlings to HB folks as an end product.
But very very few actually produce a saleable ready to show Hunter.
Find me some US bred Hunters in the top 20 of any of the professional divisions. I'm sure you can but they'd be in the minority.
I'm not sure what you 'think' you are reading but I don't recall saying nobody trains horses from the ages of 3-7 in this country. Some do, for example, the IHF specialists. But those are not ready to go 3'6" horses.
The reality is that 'trainers' do not train horses if they are busy showing horses for clients on the circuit. They do not have the time to do this and some may not want the physical risks that come with starting a baby.
Spending some time with an import to get it to go like a Hunter is a much more productive ( and profitable ) venture.

[moonriverfarm]

It's whatever is in "fashion" and for years the fashion statement has been an imported Warmblood something. I personally know quite a few people who would rather spend five times more to be able to say they owned a something-warmblood or imported their horse than buy anything locally no matter HOW fancy or qualified the horse might be. Me? I want the diamond in the rough and that usually means a TB, and usually one from the track. Right now one of my racetrack rejects is competing on the hoity-toity up East BN rated circuit against a bunch of those warmbloods and beating the pants off of them . She was a freebie.

[LeandraB]

Unfortunately, I don't believe that TB's , as a group, are well suited to living in a 10X10 stall with no turnout for weeks on end, plonking slowly around over 3' courses and remaining ammy-friendly. Since that's where the big bucks are, I'm not seeing a comeback any time soon. Even if TB's had their own division, the judging, the courses and trainer-mindset would have to change.

I disagree. I've known a few dead quiet TB's that have packed around everyone from 5 y/os to the 3' childrens. if you breed and train a horse to be quiet then it will be...

[CBoylen]

Exactly my point. Your TB would probably blow the WB's out of the water if flow and movement were rewarded rather than stride counting.

But we can reward both, thankfully. It's not a matter of either or, and he gets the ribbon the trip deserves. And you're right, his canter is usually the deciding factor, in my opinion. That's still what the judges want to see, even if it doesn't seem that way to you.

[Libby416]

if you breed and train a horse to be quiet then it will be...

But thats just it, thoroughbreds aren't bred to be quiet. Not saying that every warmblood is a comatose beast on four legs, but they descend from cold blooded farm horses, so their quiet temperaments date back to when they were on the farm plowing fields, or standing quiet and resolute during battle.

Thoroughbreds on the other hand, were always bred for their athleticism, which many times comes hand in hand with a hot temperament. And because the main goal for the thoroughbred breeding wise has not changed for many years, many still retain that hot temperament.

Now of course, there are exceptions to every rule. The thoroughbred I had growing up naturally was very quiet, but his brain was fried from some owner before me who saw his quiet demeanor and tried to make a jumper out of him to quickly. And I know many "warmbloods" who are very hot, but again if you look at their breeding, they have some "hot" horses, be it thoroughbreds or arabians in their pedigree.

[MintHillFarm]

I thought the Cappy Smith interview was very interesting. That could be colored by that fact that I grew up thinking that top level hunters should go with pace and brilliance. Of course, with all the measured distances and showing only in the ring there is no room for a TB to move out and get brilliant.

In the Derby finals I only saw one hand gallop, and thank heavens, it was rewarded. Scott Stewart went for a brilliant last fence and got it, but it involved a lot of leg flapping. Lillie got almost as big a jump much more subtly.

Today it seems that only Derby courses allow room to show pace and brilliance, but the riders are so used to plodding along that few take advantage of the opportunity to show off their horses. TB's may make a comeback, but only if what they do well (movement, pace, lightness over the ground) starts to be rewarded.

The Chronicle had a Derby preview issue (2?) weeks ago. In looking through the bios it was interesting to read that every horse was a warm blood except for one!

[meupatdoes]

But thats just it, thoroughbreds aren't bred to be quiet. Not saying that every warmblood is a comatose beast on four legs, but they descend from cold blooded farm horses, so their quiet temperaments date back to when they were on the farm plowing fields, or standing quiet and resolute during battle.

Thoroughbreds on the other hand, were always bred for their athleticism, which many times comes hand in hand with a hot temperament. And because the main goal for the thoroughbred breeding wise has not changed for many years, many still retain that hot temperament.

Now of course, there are exceptions to every rule. The thoroughbred I had growing up naturally was very quiet, but his brain was fried from some owner before me who saw his quiet demeanor and tried to make a jumper out of him to quickly. And I know many "warmbloods" who are very hot, but again if you look at their breeding, they have some "hot" horses, be it thoroughbreds or arabians in their pedigree.

Maybe it is time to revisit the concept that half the WB's out there are 50% TB at minimum, some even more.

The Hanoverian stallion of the year in 2006?
Money-winning ottb.
Yep. It raced, it won money, and then it was deemed the Hanoverian stallion of the year. And this was five years ago, not in the era of rust breeches when people actually galloped on outside courses. (I think I just ruined the day of some people who ride horses with "H"'s burned into their butts.) And it is a leading sire so here we thought we were riding descendents of the besty-bestest tippy top pure Hanoverian stallion and whoops you have the son or grandchild of a track horse.

The warmbloods descend from farm horses who were and still are mixed with TBs to bring refinement and athleticism to the cart horse.

Meanwhile my Oldenburg is 50% ottb, 25% Westphalian, and 25% Shagya Arab. So this idea that a brand connotes some sort of "separateness" when they are all intermingled mutts who owe their refinement to TB and Arab influence anyway is just off.

[Libby416]

Maybe it is time to revisit the concept that half the WB's out there are 50% TB at minimum, some even more.

The Hanoverian stallion of the year in 2006?
Money-winning ottb.
Yep. It raced, it won money, and then it was deemed the Hanoverian stallion of the year. And this was five years ago, not in the era of rust breeches when people actually galloped on outside courses. (I think I just ruined the day of some people who ride horses with "H"'s burned into their butts.) And it is a leading sire so here we thought we were riding descendents of the besty-bestest tippy top pure Hanoverian stallion and whoops you have the son or grandchild of a track horse.

The warmbloods descend from farm horses who were and still are mixed with TBs to bring refinement and athleticism to the cart horse.

Meanwhile my Oldenburg is 50% ottb, 25% Westphalian, and 25% Shagya Arab. So this idea that a brand connotes some sort of "separateness" when they are all intermingled mutts who owe their refinement to TB and Arab influence anyway is just off.

I'm not saying that "warmbloods" are purebloods by any means. Thats why I put quotes around the loose term in my previous post. But the fact is that the foundation stallions, and mares for that matter, for many warmblood breeds were work horses from the farm. And yes, of course there is some thoroughbred, and in the case of the Trakehner breed as we all know, arab blood. But that is also why there is such a wide spectrum of temperaments for the warmblood. But again, they still do have that cold blood in them, which gives many their ammy friendly temperaments.

Thoroughbreds dont have any of that cold blood infused in their bloodlines, which is why many are hot.

Again I say many, not all, as there are always exceptions.