Thoroughbred Hunters

[muzknme]

It is a good idea! I recently talked with the Jockey Club about working with the USEF to add a program similiar to the Connemara's program. Since it isn't the JC's job to support a breed show program for TB's, and they have no other association to lean on- show in normal classes at rated shows, and then have the show management document their placings and send them to USEF , then they will have their own TB points tallied up and the Jockey Club gives out year end awards. Also , if 3 or more TB's with JC papers show up, give the riders the option of becoming a 'class'. Their rounds (no more rounds than any other horse in that division, as to not hold up the show) could either count for different ribbons, or count towards regular ribbons and to TB ribbons. TB points and classes will only count for TB points, more USEF or zone or association points than any other regular horse, so no one gets in a tizzy for year end awards.

This is a great idea! Did you get any response?

[moonriverfarm]

This would be fantastic advertisement for the REAL horses out there - the athletes who have maybe paid their dues at the track, or those who were track "failures"...those two classifications not at all representative of ability in a different discipline. I don't think there is a better athlete, or a horse more willing to give 200% and all his heart, than a Thoroughbred. Having the breed spotlighted would do great things for the off trackers, their owners and trainers, and so many riders who either can't afford or like me just are not fond of warmblood types. Give me a big rangy TB any day.
AND BRING BACK OUTSIDE HUNTER COURSES PLEASE!!!!

[ccoronios]

As many of you probably know, the warmbloods have successfully invaded US dressage, also. Years ago, I videoed a keuring with Dr. Oulehla (director of the Spanish Riding School), before which he gave an excellent presentation on the breed, followed by a Q&A. Although he speaks English fairly well, he had a translator. One of the last questions was: "How do you combat the judges' strong preference for the warmblood way of going? Even when your horse moves correctly, if it doesn't move like a warmblood, you don't get pinned. How do we overcome that?" Dr. O took a deep breath and answered - in English - "If you have judge who does not or cannot judge on quality of your test, you do not have judge, you have a$$." (edited - I wrote what he said, then thought perhaps I should disguise it for those who might be offended.)

I will give great credence, however, to those who've pointed out that in the majority of today's hunter courses, the TB way of going would be greatly hampered.

[Hauwse]

Unfortunately, I don't believe that TB's , as a group, are well suited to living in a 10X10 stall with no turnout for weeks on end, plonking slowly around over 3' courses and remaining ammy-friendly. Since that's where the big bucks are, I'm not seeing a comeback any time soon. Even if TB's had their own division, the judging, the courses and trainer-mindset would have to change.

I think thoroughbreds as a group are as well suited as any bred/type of horse. Need we forget that a TB on the track can spend its entire career in a stall, with no more out of stall exposure than .5hrs on the hot walker, an hour for training and a bath, and the same on race day, and it seemed to work fine from the onset of the American hunter/jumper industry until the 80's.

I myself never rode ponies, my first under saddle class, at the age of 7, was on a 16hh plus OTTB, still have the picture, and you cannot get any more rider friendly than that regardless of division you might be in.

The course are changing thus the Hunter Derbies. Granted they have a ways to go before, but it is progressing. I watched a Hunter Derby at a show in Calgary recently and the course was in an open field, up and down, with no set lines, banks, and lots of natural jumps. The only successful horses were those who could go out and hunt the course.

All that aside, the courses are not the problem, the judging is not the problem, or TB's being ammy friendly, or environmentally challenged... the problem is that if they are not in the dang ring they can't win, and we cannot expect a TB or any breed for that matter that is developed in someones backyard , by a weekend warrior to go out compete and win against any horse, regardless of breed, that is developed properly for their discipline.

[Hauwse]

That's why the WB is here - ammy friendly.
I think the biggest problem for a 'TB comeback' would be course design. As more galloping course design is sneaking back into eventing - so are the TBs. Hunter courses would have to showcase longer flowing strides, ease of jumping and forward landings.
And judges would have to be open to a different physical type of horse.
I have a mare that really belongs in the (old fashioned) hunter ring (stride, jump style, movement etc) but at 16.1 and a medium/heavy TB frame - I have a picture of her in a lineup with some WBs and she looks like a pony. I don't think that would be easy to overcome today.

Last time I checked TB's were as diverse in size and way of going as any breed or type of horse that has ever existed or evolved on the planet.

WB's are here because we bought into a great marketing strategy.

They gave us a great alternative, horses that were easier to find, easier to evaluate, and that possessed a significant amount of training. No more searching all over the country for prospects off the track, which required significant skill, no more having to deal with the true green horse, or having to have a professional develop it for you, etc., etc., etc.

WB's are not better than TB's for any of our disciplines or for any division of rider, and vice versa. If you were around when TB's were the only horses in the ring than you should now this, and if not all you have to do is look back a little ways and you would see this.

[englishcowgirl]

Unfortunately, I don't believe that TB's , as a group, are well suited to living in a 10X10 stall with no turnout for weeks on end, plonking slowly around over 3' courses and remaining ammy-friendly. Since that's where the big bucks are, I'm not seeing a comeback any time soon. Even if TB's had their own division, the judging, the courses and trainer-mindset would have to change.

I don't believe any horse should be living in a 10x10 with no turn out for weeks on end. I am an ammy that rides a tb hunter. She knows the ropes and is a brilliant teacher. She takes a joke and watches over me better than any of the wb's that dump their riders for any old mistake. She is so calm she literally takes away any concern (fear) I may have about jumping. Now I have no problem going out a jumping around, thanks to a tb. I have two others with a high amount of tb in them as well and they are fantastic and put up with my ammy mistakes! It may be just me though, I don't know many other show hunters who love a gallop cross country.

[AllForShow(s)]

This is a great idea! Did you get any response?

Yes! They said the are going to try to implement it, might be a while, but they definitely consider it. They also said they are trying to release some new programs for OTTB's that help them find their way into the show ring. Fingers crossed!!!

[danceronice]

I don't believe any horse should be living in a 10x10 with no turn out for weeks on end.

If they are, they better be getting some HEAVY exercise every day. Otherwise...

Though TBs at the track live in their stalls for almost 23 hours a day without becoming neurotic basket cases. They do get out and at least get walked if not worked, though. And the barns have got people and horses coming and going. Old OTTB was substantially less weirded out by the fairgrounds when the actual fair (noise, lights, crowds) was going on than the "peaceful" clinics early in the year when it was all open and empty. And EVERYONE in my first 4H club (all English from one trainer) had an OTTB. Had everything from barely-over-pony-size to 16.3+ behemoths.

And TBs can do anything. I'm slowly coming to accept that now Lucky is retired he really wanted to be a cowboy when he grew up, and am quietly seeking out suitable tack. (Someone please remind me, barrel saddle with teal ostrich-hide seat and heart cutouts, no matter how cute, = not suitable.)

[Madeline]

I think thoroughbreds as a group are as well suited as any bred/type of horse. Need we forget that a TB on the track can spend its entire career in a stall, with no more out of stall exposure than .5hrs on the hot walker, an hour for training and a bath, and the same on race day, and it seemed to work fine from the onset of the American hunter/jumper industry until the 80's.

.

I must be way older than you. Horses at the track do not have to be ammy friendly.

Back when TB's ruled the hunter world, there were only a few shows that ran 5 days, and nothing that ran 6 weeks. Horses came in from the farm, showed maybe for a week, and went home. They were not showing 30-40 weeks a year, they had a home life. There was turnout and down time. And outside courses...

[CBoylen]

Why is everyone talking about the TB horse like it's a different sort of animal? The species we're talking about is "show hunter". If your TB fits the specs, then it's a show hunter. It doesn't need its own division, or for the course to be set differently, or for the industry and the judges to be re-educated. It needs someone to SHOW it. The best way to bring more TB's to the ring is to go find nice ones, train them, and show them. If they're nice enough they will win and people will buy them. If they are not, it's not because of their breed; there are plenty of warmbloods who are not show hunters either.

[Go Fish]

Why is everyone talking about the TB horse like it's a different sort of animal? The species we're talking about is "show hunter". If your TB fits the specs, then it's a show hunter. It doesn't need its own division, or for the course to be set differently, or for the industry and the judges to be re-educated. It needs someone to SHOW it. The best way to bring more TB's to the ring is to go find nice ones, train them, and show them. If they're nice enough they will win and people will buy them. If they are not, it's not because of their breed; there are plenty of warmbloods who are not show hunters either.

Agreed.

One thing that's rarely mentioned when this subject comes up is that the TB of today, particularly OTTBs, look nothing like the TBs of 20+ years ago when they dominated the sport. Some sporthorse TB breeders get it...A Fine Romance comes to mind. Seriously people, pull up his confo shot and take a look. Then go compare his conformation to all the posted photos of OTTBs trying to find a new career. The difference is night and day.

I think TBs are phenomenal athletes...but the racing industry has, for quite some time, been breeding and racing horses with conformation that does not lend itself well to the H/J industry anymore. It's just the way it is. There are a lot of reasons for this, but I can guarantee that the major one is that TB breeders breed for the sale ring, track and how they race today...they could give a tinker's damn about any career beyond that.

A good horse is a good horse is a good horse. I love QHs. I'd love to find a great hunter prospect that is a QH. But I'm not holding my breath. It's just not what they're bred to do and I'm not going to try and fit a square peg into a round hole, particularly when I can find a horse more suited to do the intended job.

[Madeline]

If judges are going to count strides and pin slow moving WB's who jump in an exaggerated style designed to make it look like they're really sweating to get up in the air, a light and agile efficient-jumping TB is not going to be successful no matter how much you train it.

If the judges are looking for Rottweilers, even the best trained Irish Setter will not get a look....

[BarbB]

Agreed.

One thing that's rarely mentioned when this subject comes up is that the TB of today, particularly OTTBs, look nothing like the TBs of 20+ years ago when they dominated the sport.

This is absolutely true. I have been lucky enough to own some TBs of the old classic lines. Horses with good bone, a slightly long body and a long neck. The majority of TBs bred today are sprinters - what I call spider horses, short backs, short necks and extremely long legs. Not well suited for hunters. There are some 'old' style TBs being bred all the time, but they are harder to find. The classic bred TBs are well suited for hunters but I still think they need courses that showcase flow over power.

[ynl063w]

If judges are going to count strides and pin slow moving WB's who jump in an exaggerated style designed to make it look like they're really sweating to get up in the air, a light and agile efficient-jumping TB is not going to be successful no matter how much you train it.

If the judges are looking for Rottweilers, even the best trained Irish Setter will not get a look....

I'm quoting the post above, but my reply is to many posts on this thread.

Why not just ask the Powers That Be to create a division for horses that don't measure up to the show hunters of today? That is really what all of you are asking for. All the judges are looking for is a quality show hunter; they really don't know or care what the breed might be. Get your Thoroughbreds out there and show them to the judges - if they are the quality animals you all claim them to be, they will be rewarded. The Hunter Derbies are what all of you TB enthusiasts have been asking for for years - get them out there and prove your point.

[chaser74]

I'm not trying to argue-I really don't understand. Aren't many steeplechasers failed racehorses? Aren't they all thoroughbreds? I've only been to a couple of 'chases, but I didn't consider them sprints. Are those horses purpose bred and therefore have different conformation than the flat track TB?

And, as far as a seperate division for horses who "don't measure up," isn't that what the "non TB" division used to be, back in the good ol' days? What am I missing?

[CBoylen]

Madeline, my point is that you can find TBs that are suited to today's standards. It doesn't have to be about training something unsuitable. I have a TB of my own. If he went any faster than "slow-moving" he would leave out strides.

[FDF]

just WHEN did they STOP offering TB only classes?

Slightly OT but I saw a video of Cappy Smith saying that in the beginning there was five classes: TB only, non-TB, Lightweight/Medium & Heavyweight Hunter. And that was it. (Jumpers did not ride against the clock they rode against the other competitors in heats with higher jumps. The one who went around the course with no knockdowns won.}

I know that the decline of the TB in the show ring is really a recent thing as I remember my local show offering NON-TB only classes. This was a unrated show in the late 1990's.

From about the same age frame-of-reference, I actually remember when TB were the Hunters/Jumpers and it was the "other" breeds that had to compete against them in the ring. I was riding Saddleseat at the time and recall thinking, "That's REAL riding", rather than riding different gaits on the rail However, over the years the Hunter ring changed and became the equivalent, with bounces, of riding in circles (IMSpectatorO)...so I lost interest in pursuing it, myself.

However, I remained interested in the Thoroughbred. And pursued THAT interest as it was what had excited me in not just riding around the ring all the time.

As for OTTB not being Ammy friendly, I sure wish I had a video I could post of my 1981 model teaching me to jump! I got him newly trained, not green off the track (44 races), but he was "ON" when he saw jumps and he LIKED it I swear he grew 4" when he saw a jump! I know now that it's unusual, but I didn't have any sort of jumping hackamore or know any differently at the time, so I rode him in his halter so I wouldn't damage his mouth with my clumsy hands and balance. And he went around cross poles then poles then actually jumped....packing me around so I could learn. Then did the same when I'd graduated to an actual bit and we could go out in public.

Which is pretty much both an accurate statement of fact and a tribute to a horse I loved and just lost to age. Bear with me on that. Didn't really mean to be narcissistic, but I'm going to let it stand.

I'm not even sure that it has to be TB per se, in terms of getting hunter classes back to something more approximating a class of horses that "could" go out foxhunting. But maybe it does, in order to establish the "way of going" in the mind of owners, trainers, riders, judges as something good, you'd have to draw upon history to "re"institute those classes?

This is a very uplifting thread, thanks OP and contributors, I'm so glad to hear it being discussed!

Either way,

[red2004]

Why is everyone talking about the TB horse like it's a different sort of animal? The species we're talking about is "show hunter". If your TB fits the specs, then it's a show hunter. It doesn't need its own division, or for the course to be set differently, or for the industry and the judges to be re-educated. It needs someone to SHOW it. The best way to bring more TB's to the ring is to go find nice ones, train them, and show them. If they're nice enough they will win and people will buy them. If they are not, it's not because of their breed; there are plenty of warmbloods who are not show hunters either.

Case in point!

[BarbB]

I'm not trying to argue-I really don't understand. Aren't many steeplechasers failed racehorses? Aren't they all thoroughbreds? I've only been to a couple of 'chases, but I didn't consider them sprints. Are those horses purpose bred and therefore have different conformation than the flat track TB?

There are horses bred to run distance races (classics) and horses bred to run shorter races (sprinters) and horses bred to run over jumps (steeplechasers). They are all slightly different in conformation and generally come from different bloodlines, although that changes all the time. A sprinter can produce distance runners etc. Good steeplechasers are not, as a rule, failed flat racers.

[zedcadjna]

I have a barn full of TB's ridden by am/jr riders. I have 5 girls who ride TB's, and will start chasing points this yr..

As far an jr and ammy friendly I think it is the way they were brought home and treated from the track/bred or just started.. I have a friend who is a Ammy and she rehabs TB's for new careers in the H/j world geared towards Am/jr riders, and all her horses are quite successful!!