• Welcome to the Chronicle Forums.
    Please complete your profile. The forums and the rest of www.chronofhorse.com has single sign-in, so your log in information for one will automatically work for the other. Disclaimer: The opinions expressed here are the views of the individual and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of The Chronicle of the Horse.

Announcement

Collapse

Forum rules and no-advertising policy

As a participant on this forum, it is your responsibility to know and follow our rules. Please read this message in its entirety.

Board Rules

1. You’re responsible for what you say.
As outlined in Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, The Chronicle of the Horse and its affiliates, as well Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd., the developers of vBulletin, are not legally responsible for statements made in the forums.

This is a public forum viewed by a wide spectrum of people, so please be mindful of what you say and who might be reading it—details of personal disputes are likely better handled privately. While posters are legally responsible for their statements, the moderators may in their discretion remove or edit posts that violate these rules. Users have the ability to modify or delete their own messages after posting, but administrators generally will not delete posts, threads or accounts upon request.

Outright inflammatory, vulgar, harassing, malicious or otherwise inappropriate statements and criminal charges unsubstantiated by a reputable news source or legal documentation will not be tolerated and will be dealt with at the discretion of the moderators.

2. Conversations in horse-related forums should be horse-related.
The forums are a wonderful source of information and support for members of the horse community. While it’s understandably tempting to share information or search for input on other topics upon which members might have a similar level of knowledge, members must maintain the focus on horses.

3. Keep conversations productive, on topic and civil.
Discussion and disagreement are inevitable and encouraged; personal insults, diatribes and sniping comments are unproductive and unacceptable. Whether a subject is light-hearted or serious, keep posts focused on the current topic and of general interest to other participants of that thread. Utilize the private message feature or personal email where appropriate to address side topics or personal issues not related to the topic at large.

4. No advertising in the discussion forums.
Posts in the discussion forums directly or indirectly advertising horses, jobs, items or services for sale or wanted will be removed at the discretion of the moderators. Use of the private messaging feature or email addresses obtained through users’ profiles for unsolicited advertising is not permitted.

Company representatives may participate in discussions and answer questions about their products or services, or suggest their products on recent threads if they fulfill the criteria of a query. False "testimonials" provided by company affiliates posing as general consumers are not appropriate, and self-promotion of sales, ad campaigns, etc. through the discussion forums is not allowed.

Paid advertising is available on our classifieds site and through the purchase of banner ads. The tightly monitored Giveaways forum permits free listings of genuinely free horses and items available or wanted (on a limited basis). Items offered for trade are not allowed.

Advertising Policy Specifics
When in doubt of whether something you want to post constitutes advertising, please contact a moderator privately in advance for further clarification. Refer to the following points for general guidelines:

Horses – Only general discussion about the buying, leasing, selling and pricing of horses is permitted. If the post contains, or links to, the type of specific information typically found in a sales or wanted ad, and it’s related to a horse for sale, regardless of who’s selling it, it doesn’t belong in the discussion forums.

Stallions – Board members may ask for suggestions on breeding stallion recommendations. Stallion owners may reply to such queries by suggesting their own stallions, only if their horse fits the specific criteria of the original poster. Excessive promotion of a stallion by its owner or related parties is not permitted and will be addressed at the discretion of the moderators.

Services – Members may use the forums to ask for general recommendations of trainers, barns, shippers, farriers, etc., and other members may answer those requests by suggesting themselves or their company, if their services fulfill the specific criteria of the original post. Members may not solicit other members for business if it is not in response to a direct, genuine query.

Products – While members may ask for general opinions and suggestions on equipment, trailers, trucks, etc., they may not list the specific attributes for which they are in the market, as such posts serve as wanted ads.

Event Announcements – Members may post one notification of an upcoming event that may be of interest to fellow members, if the original poster does not benefit financially from the event. Such threads may not be “bumped” excessively. Premium members may post their own notices in the Event Announcements forum.

Charities/Rescues – Announcements for charitable or fundraising events can only be made for 501(c)(3) tax-exempt organizations. Special exceptions may be made, at the moderators’ discretion and direction, for board-related events or fundraising activities in extraordinary circumstances.

Occasional posts regarding horses available for adoption through IRS-registered horse rescue or placement programs are permitted in the appropriate forums, but these threads may be limited at the discretion of the moderators. Individuals may not advertise or make announcements for horses in need of rescue, placement or adoption unless the horse is available through a recognized rescue or placement agency or government-run entity or the thread fits the criteria for and is located in the Giveaways forum.

5. Do not post copyrighted photographs unless you have purchased that photo and have permission to do so.

6. Respect other members.
As members are often passionate about their beliefs and intentions can easily be misinterpreted in this type of environment, try to explore or resolve the inevitable disagreements that arise in the course of threads calmly and rationally.

If you see a post that you feel violates the rules of the board, please click the “alert” button (exclamation point inside of a triangle) in the bottom left corner of the post, which will alert ONLY the moderators to the post in question. They will then take whatever action, or no action, as deemed appropriate for the situation at their discretion. Do not air grievances regarding other posters or the moderators in the discussion forums.

Please be advised that adding another user to your “Ignore” list via your User Control Panel can be a useful tactic, which blocks posts and private messages by members whose commentary you’d rather avoid reading.

7. We have the right to reproduce statements made in the forums.
The Chronicle of the Horse may copy, quote, link to or otherwise reproduce posts, or portions of posts, in print or online for advertising or editorial purposes, if attributed to their original authors, and by posting in this forum, you hereby grant to The Chronicle of the Horse a perpetual, non-exclusive license under copyright and other rights, to do so.

8. We reserve the right to enforce and amend the rules.
The moderators may delete, edit, move or close any post or thread at any time, or refrain from doing any of the foregoing, in their discretion, and may suspend or revoke a user’s membership privileges at any time to maintain adherence to the rules and the general spirit of the forum. These rules may be amended at any time to address the current needs of the board.

Please see our full Terms of Service and Privacy Policy for more information.

Thanks for being a part of the COTH forums!

(Revised 1/26/16)
See more
See less

Why still Non-TB classes, not Non-WB classes?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Why still Non-TB classes, not Non-WB classes?

    I was just looking at the Colo Horse Park Schedule, for the expanded series starting this week, and the Pat Boyle mgmt has the Non-TB classes.
    Does that still make sense? Are there still more TBs than WBs? I thought not. Or is it that a TB is registered and therefore known, while a WB can be a number of breed crosses and not registered?

    Non-WB makes more sense to me these days. Or maybe a section for registered American breeds? I could show a TB or QH Appx. in that!
    Comprehensive Equestrian Site Planning and Facility Design
    www.lynnlongplanninganddesign.com

  • #2
    The TB division when offered rarely or barely fills, while a Non-TB division is basically an open schooling division and therefore brings in money for the show manager, who is the one who decides what classes to offer.

    Comment


    • #3
      ^^^^ Yep. I was explaining this to my mom today (she's non-horsey). My horse showed in the non-TB division today. I think in the 'old days' the division came about when there were lots of TBs winning and there was demand for a non-TB class. Now that demand is high and brings in revenue for the horse shows.

      If there's enough demand for a non-WB class, I'm sure the horse shows will start offering it. But with so many WBs showing, I'm not sure how big the classes would be (at least in my area).
      ~ Citizens for a Kinder, Gentler COTH...our mantra: Be nice. ~

      Comment

      • Original Poster

        #4
        So why keep the old name? The show manager money angle is fine, but many shows have creative names for those schooling divisions: "Tucson Hunters" and such.
        Comprehensive Equestrian Site Planning and Facility Design
        www.lynnlongplanninganddesign.com

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Plumcreek View Post
          So why keep the old name? The show manager money angle is fine, but many shows have creative names for those schooling divisions: "Tucson Hunters" and such.
          Because it is in the rule book?
          Janet

          chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Janet View Post
            Because it is in the rule book?
            But so are TB only classes.
            And neither case applies because while they are in the rule book they are there for the purpose of spliting Green, Performance or High Performance Hunters, not as a standalone division.

            Really left over from the years when TB's dominated.
            Fan of Sea Accounts

            Comment


            • #7
              You are missing my point.

              The rule book clearly defines what is TB and what is non-TB.

              If show management were to offer a "non-WB" class, there is no clear definition of what is and isn't a warmblood-

              Unregistered offspring of two registered Hanovarians?

              Horse that is registered but never inspected or approved?

              Horse that is a regeistered TB, but also approved by one of he German registries?

              Selle Francais?
              RID?
              ISH?
              Andalusian?
              AWS?
              AWR?
              Janet

              chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Janet View Post
                You are missing my point.

                The rule book clearly defines what is TB and what is non-TB.

                If show management were to offer a "non-WB" class, there is no clear definition of what is and isn't a warmblood-

                Unregistered offspring of two registered Hanovarians?

                Horse that is registered but never inspected or approved?

                Horse that is a regeistered TB, but also approved by one of he German registries?

                Selle Francais?
                RID?
                ISH?
                Andalusian?
                AWS?
                AWR?

                LOL
                "Because it's in the rule book" made a point?

                But back to the original premise.
                Most shows have a multitude of unrated classes running at various heights.
                If a show has a non TB division and nothing else ask the show manager to add another division in the future.
                Fan of Sea Accounts

                Comment


                • #9
                  Never hurts to ask but, unless you can get them a substantial number of entries-these things usually have at least 20, usually alot more-they will keep the one one that generates the revenue for management plus gives the majority of trainers/riders the opportunity to get a good school in over a course.

                  So it comes down to numbers and...for all the TB fans out there, how many are up to a AA 3' class (usually during the week), able to travel to the AA show and willing to spend AA prices to go in it????

                  Even if you build it, they may not come.

                  The idea might float better at smaller venues where you know you can attract sufficient entries before you ask them to add it.
                  When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                  The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PineTreeFarm View Post
                    LOL
                    "Because it's in the rule book" made a point?

                    But back to the original premise.
                    Most shows have a multitude of unrated classes running at various heights.
                    If a show has a non TB division and nothing else ask the show manager to add another division in the future.
                    I think you don't understand the point. When you can come up with a way to define "non WB" you can ask for a division.
                    Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by PineTreeFarm View Post
                      LOL
                      "Because it's in the rule book" made a point?
                      Yes, the POINT (which I though was so obvious I didd not need to spell it out in words) is that the rulebook DEFINES which horses are eligible for the TB class, and which are eligible for the non-TB class. There is NOTHING that spells out which horses are eligible for the "non WB" class.

                      If a show has a non TB division and nothing else ask the show manager to add another division in the future.
                      And what division would that be? Who is going to define the specs of which horses are eligible.
                      Janet

                      chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        USEF/USHJA can define TB because it is a breed and the identity of the horse can be verified via papers or tatoo.

                        Since WBs are all sorts of types and combinations of bloodlines, it is not a single breed. And what about the lack of papers on many show Hunters because they are just not important to many owners? Who knows what it is, they just care it gets around good.

                        I bet if you did offer a "non WB" class you'd get 3 TBs a couple of QHs and 38 horses with no papers that look kind of like TBs. Or one like my own mare that was accused of being a Dutch WB on many occasions-she was a TB and she had the papers to prove it, how many do not? You want to slam the gate on those and let all those other 38 that look more like TBs or QHs in??? Or sit there and check papers as a condition of entry??

                        It is just a huge can of worms that does not need to be opened for what is essentially a schooling/warm up class.
                        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think the original question wasn't as much about WHY a non-WB class doesn't exist, but why show management would continue to offer a class thats intent was to exclude one specific breed, for the purpose of evening the playing field back when TBs used to hold monopoly on the hunter classes. Seeing as that is no longer the case by any stretch of the imagination, why would this show continue to offer a class excluding TBs when nowadays the WBs are the overwhelming majority in the hunter ring?
                          -JustWorld International-

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I agree, huge can of worms.

                            To add to the issue of "what is a WB", I have a Trakehner with no brand and papers that are not in my possession. Unless evidence of DNA is required for entry in the class, I could claim I don't know his lineage and show him as a "non WB".

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I hope you're all happy

                              Making me feel like a dinosaur

                              I used to have a running argument with my H/J trainer as to why I should show my (Non-JC registered) TB in the Non-TB class.

                              ME: Because he IS a TB!
                              SHE: He's not tattooed, it's a small class, you can enter & win or at least get points.

                              & so on, ad nauseum.....
                              *friend of bar.ka*RIP all my lovely boys, gone too soon:
                              Steppin' Out 1988-2004
                              Hey Vern! 1982-2009, Cash's Bay Threat 1994-2009
                              Sam(Jaybee Altair) 1994-2015

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                I do agree that a "Non-TB" division is kind of archaic these days, but instead of replacing it with a TB class, just rename it "Schooling Modified Low Hunters" or something so the handful of TBs actually at the show are not excluded for silly reasons that are no longer relevant in the modern show world. That could mean 1 or 2 more entries for Show Management, woo hoo!

                                I don't see that being in the rulebook is really an advantage. It is just a mid-week schooling division for A and Children's horses, basically, right? Let the TBs in, if there are any.

                                It is not like there is a market for speciality horses. I've never seen an ad that says, "Winning Non-TB Hunter!"

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by TrakHack View Post
                                  ...I have a Trakehner with no brand and papers that are not in my possession. Unless evidence of DNA is required for entry in the class, I could claim I don't know his lineage and show him as a "non WB".
                                  Exactly my point and Janets too I think. Many don't have a clue what the breeding is and you sure cannot tell alot of WBs from alot of TBs and vice versa.

                                  Despite the fact it IS an antiquated hold over from the days when TBs ruled, there is no way to even define what is and what is not a WB let alone police entries by demanding proof of lineage.

                                  But they will offer non TB because it gets a good number of entries and people are willing to pay to go in it as a good school. That's all it is worth anyway, hardly a marquee class on the weekend with purse money or anything.

                                  If it makes you feel better, the non TB Hunter class is rarely offered in many areas.
                                  When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                  The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    For the ridden divisions (as opposed to Hunter Breeding), your trainer was correct.


                                    The TB classes are for horses registered with the JC. All others go in the non TB classes.
                                    b. Thoroughbred—registered in any stud book recognized by the Jockey Club.
                                    c. Non-thoroughbred—not registered as in (b).
                                    Originally posted by 2DogsFarm View Post
                                    Making me feel like a dinosaur

                                    I used to have a running argument with my H/J trainer as to why I should show my (Non-JC registered) TB in the Non-TB class.

                                    ME: Because he IS a TB!
                                    SHE: He's not tattooed, it's a small class, you can enter & win or at least get points.

                                    & so on, ad nauseum.....
                                    Janet

                                    chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle and Tiara. Someone else is now feeding and mucking for Chief and Brain (both foxhunting now).

                                    Comment

                                    Working...
                                    X