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I find it amazing...

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  • I find it amazing...

    That the same magazine printed Denny Emerson's article on how to NOT jump ahead of your horse the week after they published roughly 500 pictures of riders jumping ahead of their horses.
    Maybe they should have been in the same issue...
    madeline
    * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis

  • #2
    amazing isn't the word I'd use...

    regretably, the "show hunters" of today have, with the exception of the hunter derbies, have no relation to riding a young or unproven horse over fences. You can bet that the people who start these horses over fences do not ride like that. It's ugly, it's not effective, it is however, in fashion, though I have no idea why. Well, actually, I do. The trainers drill the horses till they're almost like circus horses and all the riders have to do is lean and cling.

    Everything I learned to ride on (back when all bridles had flat, unadorned leather nosebands and all saddles were hard as bricks) would have unceremoniously dumped me on my face had I approached a fence like that.

    I'm glad they put Denny's article in there.

    Note to GM, you should have never started the crest release, you should have just taken their reins away till they learned how to use them.

    Comment


    • #3
      The trainers drill the horses till they're almost like circus horses and all the riders have to do is lean and cling.

      Everything I learned to ride on (back when all bridles had flat, unadorned leather nosebands and all saddles were hard as bricks) would have unceremoniously dumped me on my face had I approached a fence like that.
      Lord have mercy, are we seriously getting into this again?
      ---
      They're small hearts.

      Comment


      • #4
        I don't have a dog in this fight, at all; haven't jumped in over 10 years. But I am curious about one thing--since the hunters value the horse using it's front end & shoulder well, and overjumping--then why do they also favor a riding style that seems to be designed to flatten the horse's front end? Does it somehow enhance the horse's jump to be ridden this way? Is there any advantage to it? Or is it really just an unfortunate artifact?
        "One person's cowboy is another person's blooming idiot" -- katarine

        Spay and neuter. Please.

        Comment


        • #5
          FWIW, though, I'm pretty well grateful that my horse doesn't "unceremoniously dump me on my face" if I make a mistake. His job is to take care of me out there - since I'm pretty sure an important quality of a lady's amateur hunter is still MANNERS. My trainer has been on him exactly three times, though.

          Why do we always forget hunters is judged on the horse, regardless of what the rider is doing? What wins is the horse who had the best course of that day. If that horse has a monkey on his back, it doesn't actually matter as long as the monkey paid all the appropriate USEF fees and is wearing an ASTM-approved helmet.
          ---
          They're small hearts.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Trixie View Post
            Lord have mercy, are we seriously getting into this again?
            Do you think she would actually let this subject die off??? How many times can we hear, "Well back in my day..."
            Originally posted by JSwan
            Prove it....Otherwise, you're just coming off as a whackjob.
            Founding member of the "Not too Klassy for Boxed Wine" Clique

            Comment


            • #7
              It's funny that hunters in general look like they jump pretty safe and cute despite their riders overly generous crest released and ducking.

              To be certain, nobody thinks it is a good idea to to a light half seat and giant crest release to a down hill log.

              And I have had the privilege of riding with Denny and many really awesome eventers, but they are preparing their riders to do something much different than produce a flowing hunter ride. The whole idea there is to get some speed, then come back and repackage to jump.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Tap2Tango View Post
                Do you think she would actually let this subject die off??? How many times can we hear, "Well back in my day..."

                Good riding is good riding. It has nothing to do with "back in my day."

                If all those riders in the show pictures had to jump a downhill bounce they would all fall off unless they took Denny's advice. But they aren't jumping downhill bounces they are in a show ring. Two different things.

                Denny is right though--again!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by LookmaNohands View Post
                  Good riding is good riding. It has nothing to do with "back in my day."

                  If all those riders in the show pictures had to jump a downhill bounce they would all fall off unless they took Denny's advice. But they aren't jumping downhill bounces they are in a show ring. Two different things.

                  Denny is right though--again!
                  You must not be familiar with the OP...She is constantly bringing up topics about hunters then when people disagree with her she starts to go on about how hunters were back in the day. Gets old after awhile...
                  Originally posted by JSwan
                  Prove it....Otherwise, you're just coming off as a whackjob.
                  Founding member of the "Not too Klassy for Boxed Wine" Clique

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by 2ndyrgal View Post
                    regretably, the "show hunters" of today have, with the exception of the hunter derbies, have no relation to riding a young or unproven horse over fences. You can bet that the people who start these horses over fences do not ride like that..
                    Why would you assume that horses would be trained by riding them differently than they're meant to go when they're made up?

                    Everything I learned to ride on (back when all bridles had flat, unadorned leather nosebands and all saddles were hard as bricks) would have unceremoniously dumped me on my face had I approached a fence like that.
                    .
                    Which is why you wouldn't want to train a hunter to the override, and then have to retrain it to a ride acceptable for the showring.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      train to the &quot;override&quot;

                      That says it all right there.

                      Because if you point a baby at a fence in a light half seat with your hands under your chest and your shoulders sticking out, when he stops, chips or spins you're coming off.

                      I don't care if it's "back in the day" or yesterday, it's wrong, it's ugly and it just lends more ammunition to the camp that thinks a great many riders on really nicely trained horses would have a hell of a bad day on one that was a beautiful mover and jumper, but hardly point and shoot.

                      I guess if laying on a horse's neck while he jumps around and only sitting up for lead changes is your cup of tea, then fine, but don't pretend it's anything other than that. Someone posted on one of these forums a video of a rider, bareback, doing a puissance fence. Her equitation was wonderful and effective.

                      Good eq should be easy over anything lower than 3'6" and I'd think it was essential over that. But the rails fall and the ground's flat and trigger has his 6 figure knees up to his eyeballs, and the judges never seem to hear all the rubs....

                      Don't get me started on the number of them wearing bar shoes on front.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 2ndyrgal View Post
                        I don't care if it's "back in the day" or yesterday, it's wrong, it's ugly and it just lends more ammunition to the camp that thinks a great many riders on really nicely trained horses would have a hell of a bad day on one that was a beautiful mover and jumper, but hardly point and shoot.

                        I guess if laying on a horse's neck while he jumps around and only sitting up for lead changes is your cup of tea, then fine, but don't pretend it's anything other than that. .

                        Amen.

                        It got started by trainers trying to show how much their horse cracks it's back and jumps them loose. "See how great he jumps?!? I just can't stay with him!" Now, all the kids and amateurs copy like lemings . . .
                        The truth is always in the middle.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Because if you point a baby at a fence in a light half seat with your hands under your chest and your shoulders sticking out, when he stops, chips or spins you're coming off.
                          Um, a hunter round doesn't have anything to do with the ride that someone would give a greenie baby that stops and spins. The horses that are winning are not greenie babies that are stopping and spinning.

                          FWIW, though, it is entirely possible to ride a greenie in a light half seat successfully – a light half seat should not mean that you are on any level out of balance.

                          With that said, you don’t want a hunter who is reliant on being “overridden.” The goal here is for everything to be – and to look – as smooth and as soft as possible. They should be trained to be soft and responsive to light pressure. They should not stop dirty if the rider is imperfect (awful manners), and there’s no way in hell that would fly in the hunt field, either, where there are times when people aren't 100% balanced.

                          I've had the opportunity to sit on some very well known show hunters and I have found that they are generally light, responsive, and pleasant - a real joy to ride.
                          ---
                          They're small hearts.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Thoroughbred1201 View Post
                            Amen.

                            It got started by trainers trying to show how much their horse cracks it's back and jumps them loose. "See how great he jumps?!? I just can't stay with him!" Now, all the kids and amateurs copy like lemings . . .
                            Am I incorrect in thinking that a hunter is judged on its way of going and how it would be to ride in the hunt field? Why is cracking its back and jumping its rider loose desirable in the show ring?
                            Donald Trump - proven liar, cheat, traitor and sexual predator! Hillary Clinton won in 2016, but we have all lost.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SillyHorse View Post
                              Am I incorrect in thinking that a hunter is judged on its way of going and how it would be to ride in the hunt field? Why is cracking its back and jumping its rider loose desirable in the show ring?
                              No, you are correct. That is the rule. But the reality is that the roundest, loftiest jump and the best movements is what wins. And that no longer has any bearing on the hunt field at all. And with all the lovely, big moving, big jumping horses these days, trainers have to do whatever they can to point out how much better their horse is.

                              The other thing that was brought up was the crest release. As George Morris has pointed out, that release, meant for beginners, has destroyed classic position. It's almost impossible to have a correct position over a bigger jump with a lofty horse and a crest release.
                              The truth is always in the middle.

                              Comment


                              • #16
                                Today we have show hunters & field hunters, and never the twain shall meet again.

                                Other than that, I don't know what the OP wants. Eliminate Denny's ariticle? Or perhaps exclude all 500 winners from having their picture in COTH? There is no solution when approached in this manner, and I believe that's why a few are quite over the pointless tirades.
                                EHJ | FB | #140 | watch | #insta

                                Comment


                                • #17
                                  Originally posted by Thoroughbred1201 View Post

                                  The other thing that was brought up was the crest release. As George Morris has pointed out, that release, meant for beginners, has destroyed classic position. It's almost impossible to have a correct position over a bigger jump with a lofty horse and a crest release.
                                  There are a lot of top jumper riders who do the crest release (Mclain Ward, for one). I hardly think it is impossible to have a correct position with it.

                                  The crest release and a bastardized version of it are two completely different things.

                                  Carry on... anyone want popcorn?
                                  http://www.youtube.com/user/supershorty628
                                  Proudly blogging for The Chronicle of the Horse!

                                  Comment


                                  • #18
                                    I'm not saying the horses need to be overriden

                                    I'm saying that there is absolutely no reason for a hunter rider over fences to "pose" all the way up their horse's neck with their arse sticking up and their hands jammed into the horse's neck, it doesn't make them "with" the horse, it makes them look like the worst kind of passenger. And if something does happen, and eventually, it will, they have no base of support to overcome it, unless God's watching, they're coming off, at best, a bruised dignity, at worst? Well, I've seen it, and it isn't pretty. In a light half seat, your shoulders should only be slightly ahead of your knees, and just like doing a jacknife off the diving board, you let the thrust of the motion close your hip angle, you do not throw your shoulders out into space or you'll end up face first. Water or dirt, same result. There is absolutely no argument FOR this position, it produces no more flowing round than when GM rides with perfect form over fences, it is simply laziness and greed on the part of trainers who get big$$ for made horses because they haven't taken the time to teach their students how to actually ride correctly.

                                    Comment

                                    • Original Poster

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Tap2Tango View Post
                                      You must not be familiar with the OP...She is constantly bringing up topics about hunters then when people disagree with her she starts to go on about how hunters were back in the day. Gets old after awhile...
                                      Did I say anything about "back in the day?" Or hunters, even?

                                      I just commented on what I thought was an odd editorial choice. Kinda like running one issue with 500 pictures of Hummers and following up with a thoughtful article on fuel efficiency.

                                      Sheesh. Am I not allowed any opinions?
                                      madeline
                                      * What you release is what you teach * Don't be distracted by unwanted behavior* Whoever waits the longest is the teacher. Van Hargis

                                      Comment


                                      • #20
                                        Yeah you did actually. You mentioned how if back when you rode in less-than-cushy tack and you did that to your horse he would've dumped you on your face

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