Calming a Hunter- Depo, Easy Hunter, etc.

[BLBGP]

I got a bottle of 15 pills with hydrocodone, I still have 12 left.

You completely missed the point. Drugs are drugs. You said that people who advocate no drugs on horses should apply the same to their life. I was illustrating that I did. No drugs for my horses, no drugs for me. You asked, I confirmed. End of story.

Maybe I "completely missed the point" because I am confused. Who did you give the other three pills to?

[horsegirl520]

I'm so sick of people flaming about people using aids to help quiet a horse. Not all performance changing things are "illegal"... if that was the case, we shouldn't be giving our horses anything besides grass to eat because grain is enhancing performance!! USEF has made rules to determine legal amounts of the majority of these drugs... as long as you stay under those limits, then it is legal!!! What should be illegal is lunging a horse for 2 hours in the morning, followed by flatting for 2 hours... then finally showing... I'd much rather give my horse something that will help him relax than wearing out his joints. I personally haven't had any luck with any drugs with calming my horse, but I think B-1 might make him a little quieter. If/when he gets back to showing, I'm going to try a supplement called "Perfect Prep" which my trainer swears by. Contrary to popular belief, vitamins/minerals/amino acids ARE legal.

If you want to be competitive, your horse has to be quiet and brilliant... end of story. Its easy for some horses to be like that, but for others, they need some help. It would be a waste to put the more "up" horses straight into the jumper ring... why waste beautiful movers, jumpers, and overall animals because they are a little too high strung?

Flame away if you so please... my opinion will not change. I do not consider drugs given in the legal dosages according to USEF rules illegal or unethical. If it isn't listed on the "forbidden substance list" than it isn't illegal in my opinion.

[superpony123]

I got a bottle of 15 pills with hydrocodone, I still have 12 left. Instead I have taken it slow, have strengthened my ankle. So instead of 'covering it up', I have healed.

heh, that reminds me.. i fractured my hip at HITS this past summer, and they prescribed me hydrocodone. they gave me morphine in the hospital, which basically made my hip feel like it was good as new, so i assumed that's what they prescribed me! ..rude awakening, because it wasnt morphine. i didnt realize this til the next morning when i took my first pill of the HC and then read the bottle, seeing that it was indeed not morphine. i spent the next 7 hours feeling like i was being stabbed in the stomache, while on the worlds worst gravitron (anyone ever been on one of those? i hate those!). god, it made me SO. SICK. i never took it again. and then i spent a fantastic time in the car on the long drive home hurling my guts out into a plastic bag. fun times.

haha, sorry, very off topic, but it just reminded me. EVIL MEDICINE!! i will never take hydracodone again. or probably any super-pain-killer! i'll stick with my tylenol

[Aimee Thanatogenus]

Ehm, ever wondered if your gelding has a reason for screaming at anything he sees? Maybe he wants to be out with buddies... Many horses who are kept short of social interaction (and I don't mean 'cuddling their owner' to beg for treats) are overly agitated when worked around other horses. It's plain and simple frustration.
Drugging shouldn't be considered an option to solve training or husbandry problems. If a horse needs to be confined I agree with drugging because there is no way around it. For any other purpose: Fix the underlying cause, not drug.
What do you do with your kids when they are more vocal than they should be? Put them on Ritalin? It's just not tolerable. That's why there are anti-doping rules in place to begin with no?

Really should be reposted and read 1000 times.

No wonder hunters are a joke.

When I was a kid hunters actually were hunted, hunter trialed and *gasp* evented.
Now riding is just one thing on a long ADD list some kid has to do before getting into college.

Horsey better not set a foot wrong.

Quick!
Get him a shot!

Drugs are for people who can't ride.

[eventmom]

I don't think any amount of lunging or magnesium or what have you will make a horse that truly isn't suited for the job into a winner week after week. Certainly some will try, and that's up to them, but I think most experienced and conscientious riders and trainers will a) avoid purchasing an unsuitable horse in the first place; b) sell one that turns out to be so; or c) put it in a more suitable ring. Why waste time and money and make a horse miserable when things clearly aren't going to work? This is not to say there aren't individuals who will resort to all sorts of tactics to fit a square peg into a round hole, but I think they are the exception and not the rule. Most pros don't want to torture their horses or spend inordinate amounts of time trying to get one to the ring. They might spend some time trying different programs for the horse, or even a change of address, but it's been my observation that one that's just not going to do the job will typically get sold into another vocation.

Yes, but it seems to me, based on what I have read from this thread, that I can take my fancy, too hot for hunters, warmblood, and make it's value go from $20,000 as an eventer, or $600.00 as a quiet hunter if I just drug it a bit.
Maybe many would not choose this option, but when your talking that kind of money, I suspect it is happening a lot.
So, my argument stands. The problem is that hunters has become artificially financially inflated. When this happens in any sector, you start seeing all kinds of issues. Just look at the housing market. Money make people do wierd things, even to their horse.

[TrueColours]

USEF has made rules to determine legal amounts of the majority of these drugs... as long as you stay under those limits, then it is legal!!!

Now maybe *I* am naive and/or uninformed but where are the Dex guidelines written and specified in the USEF rules?
And what about estrogen "therapy" for stallions?

And what follow up is being done - specifically for these *legal* drugs - to ensure that the maximum doses were not exceeded?

And in the cases of estrogen, where is it spelled out that the USEF KNOWS this is being given to MALE horses with the specific intent of changing its behaviour towards the FEMALE side?

As in life, some things are black and white and some fall into the grey areas.

We have one Egyptian Arabian breeder around here who insists on breeding daughters to fathers time and time again, because the end result is the coveted and much desirable *black* colour

But - in the process, 99% or perhaps even 100% of these foals are club footed at birth and crookedy as all get out in their legs (that inbreeding will do it every time ... ) so once they are born, off they go to the nice surgeon who does periostal stripping on them and check ligament surgery on them, they grow up, have a successful show career with those beautiful straight legs and then are sold on to some unsuspecting sod who then inadvertently puts his beautiful *straight legged* Arabian into the breeding shed and is left scratching his head when the foals come out club footed and/or crookedy

Legal - Hell yes ...

Ethical - nope, but since "everyone does it", who exactly is going to call the Kettle Black around here???

If my horse pulled an allergic reaction to something we WOULD give her Dex and is the case with one show last year, we simply left her at home even though we probably could easily have taken her anyhow once the Dex kicked in.

I am very curious how the insurance companies would view an insured horse that foundered or died after the Dex or whatever built up to such a degree that it caused the demise of the horse or are the "stickee's" so advanced in their concoctions now, that even the insurance company post mortems couldnt find anything in the horse's system?

[Marieke]

Maybe I "completely missed the point" because I am confused. Who did you give the other three pills to?

LOL, the dogs No seriously, I had 2 while in the recovery room (had to stay a bit longer for some complications), then I took 1 more during the night following, don't know if you every had microfractures but that hurts! I had broken my ankle, and 25% had to be removed, so instead of replacing the whole bone with a cow tallus, they made little tiny fractures so the bone and surrounding area would start bleeding and form scar tissue which should replace the cartilage. You have to be non-weight bearing for 8 weeks (that really sucks) to make sure it really heals properly. It takes about a full year for complete recovery and painless movement.

But you have to read my word *correctly*, and when you quote you should quote completely. No drug for me no drugs for my horses, but if you really need it, then you must. If you think I didn't need pain medication after major surgery, then I don't know what to say. I also said I vaccinate, or that I have a stallion with a blown hock who is on stall rests who I need to make comfortable. And if you have an infection you need medication. So by selectively quoting, you put words in somebody's mouth.

Now there are times and places that a horse truly needs medication. The stallion with the blown hock needs NSAIDs to make the swelling go down. Inflammation impedes improvement, so yes, I will give him that. Because he truly benefits from that. And there are tons of other situations that a horse truly needs it. And I'm *absolutely* *not* against that. I also vaccinate

[DMK]

Now maybe *I* am naive and/or uninformed but where are the Dex guidelines written and specified in the USEF rules?

Um, the very first line of summary grid on page 3/4 in the handbook? The detail language on pages 6-7, and I haven't even got to the rules yet...

[TrueColours]

Um, the very first line of summary grid on page 3/4 in the handbook? The detail language on pages 6-7, and I haven't even got to the rules yet...

Okay.

So other than the "honour system", who polices and checks that the guidelines are actually followed for the "legal" drugs??? And that more than the maximum dose wasnt administered for longer than the time period specified?

How is 5 or 7 or 10 times the "legal" amount being administered on a regular basis to some horses and yet the USEF standard testing protocols are not picking up on this? Flawed testing procedures? or perhaps turning a "blind eye" to what is going on???

And where in the rules is the part about not administering estrogen to stallions to perhaps convince them that they are not really stallions on show days???

[Nikki17]

Really should be reposted and read 1000 times.

No wonder hunters are a joke.

When I was a kid hunters actually were hunted, hunter trialed and *gasp* evented.
Now riding is just one thing on a long ADD list some kid has to do before getting into college.

Horsey better not set a foot wrong.

Quick!
Get him a shot!

Drugs are for people who can't ride.

Excuse Me? Since when are hunters a joke. Maybe in your neck of the woods, but certainly not in mind. Let's not throw stones, I'm sure there are PLENTY of eventers that drug just as much as hunters do. I feel it's a problem is all the diciplines, not just hunters. Please don't come on the hunter/jumpers forum and call OUR dicipline a joke.

[TheOrangeOne]

Okay.

So other than the "honour system", who polices and checks that the guidelines are actually followed for the "legal" drugs??? And that more than the maximum dose wasnt administered for longer than the time period specified?

How is 5 or 7 or 10 times the "legal" amount being administered on a regular basis to some horses and yet the USEF standard testing protocols are not picking up on this? Flawed testing procedures? or perhaps turning a "blind eye" to what is going on???

And where in the rules is the part about not administering estrogen to stallions to perhaps convince them that they are not really stallions on show days???

Oy. First and foremost, I don't think anyone said they were administering 5 to 7 times the legal amount. That would probably cause them to founder and it's not legal. People used to administer a whole lot of dex before the drug rules were in place, but now that they are, the limit is 5 ccs. This is enforced through random mandatory drug testing, which happens often, and they generally don't show up until midmorning so that anything you're going to give will have been given. People who show more than me can comment on the testing, but it's not rare or easy to get out of. There is nothing in the rules about administering "estrogen" to stallions, especially since people are adminstering progesterone. It's not used in stallions as often as in geldings who are studdish. If it's OK for mares with a hormonal imabalance, I don't see why a gelding with the same hormonal imbalance would somehow be off limits? You're treating a condition. It also lasts a month, so you're not going to be able to collect in the week and then go to a horse show. I also assume it really affects fertility in stallions. I don't mean to be rude, but you ought to come to a couple horse shows and see what is really going on. This is getting blown way out of proportion.

ETA: I'd also like to add that the majority of horses in decent show barns get turnedout as much as possible when at home. I believe in an article in COTH, Louise Serio said that gray slipper goes home, gets dirty and doesn't have to entertain people much, just hangs in the field with a buddy. My horse goes out for 16 hours a day in the summer. The depo is not because of a lack of social interaction, it is because of a hormonal imbalance which has geldings acting in a dangerous manner.

[Ruby G. Weber]

USEF claims their lab can determine - almost exactly - what was administered, approximately when and how much.

Any forbidden substance detected and determined to be above the "legal" threshold - the "person responsible" - read trainer in USEF lingo- will receive one of those registered letters from USEF.

[Addison]

THE ORANGE ONE: Giving 5 times (at least) the suggested dose of dex was all the rage a few years ago. Maybe it still is, but I think it may have proved too costly as there were some bad side effects.

[trv_at_tacf]

Personally this thread is ridiculous. There are always going to be people that believe in "drugs" and ppl who are against it. Personally I believe that a few legal drugs are ok here and there and are better then lunging your horse for 45 minutes and then doing two 3'6 divisions at every show. Personally i like using supplements, they can do wonders. I have been showing my horse now for a couple years, i could ride him 24 hours if i wanted and he would still be the biggest spook in the world. so your telling me that i cannot find a calming supplement to use? It is just my opinion i would rather give him something then pound his feet into the ground and have no horse by the time he is 10.

but like i said its everyones opinion, and as long as they follow usef rules they should be allowed to do to their horse what they feel is right.

[DMK]

So other than the "honour system", who polices and checks that the guidelines are actually followed for the "legal" drugs??? And that more than the maximum dose wasnt administered for longer than the time period specified?

It's called an ELISA test, and it's available everywhere. Ask a few German or Irish olympians.

How is 5 or 7 or 10 times the "legal" amount being administered on a regular basis to some horses and yet the USEF standard testing protocols are not picking up on this? Flawed testing procedures? or perhaps turning a "blind eye" to what is going on???

WTF you talking about? Where are you hearing this, because I can't imagine anyone giving even twice the legal limit of dex and not wanting to start founder therapy immediately.

Now there can be a (very good) case made that the "legal" limit for dex far exceeds what about any vet on the planet would describe as recommended therapeutic level, but as far as I can tell (not a vet, mind you), that except for the ability to stack almost any NSAID except bute and banamine, the other drugs seem to to comply with what a sane, reasonable vet looking out for the welfare of the horse might recommend.

And where in the rules is the part about not administering estrogen to stallions to perhaps convince them that they are not really stallions on show days???

I don't believe you will find much in the way of guidance or rules there. What you have is a specific list of prohibited substances, of which depo-provero or estrogen is not on, guidance that the list is not all inclusive and guidance that drugs in general are for therapeutic purposes, not for performance enhancing effects.

So in the strictest interpretation, Regumate could be a problem for any horse, right? How are you going to test for inappropriate levels of a naturally occurring hormone? Furthermore, the structure of the rules is a can of worms itself. Hylaronic acid is not on the not-all-inclusive-list of prohibited substances either. It too is naturally occurring in the body. It too could be therapeutic AND most definitely performance enhancing. Other than we all accept Legend is permissible, nay even desired, what is the precise difference per the structure of the rules?

[DMK]

THE ORANGE ONE: Giving 5 times (at least) the suggested dose of dex was all the rage a few years ago. Maybe it still is, but I think it may have proved too costly as there were some bad side effects.

I can think of no time in the last 2 decades when there was any trainer giving anything other than the current suggested levels - I'm sure there were a few people who were this stupid, but to say it was all the rage overstates the case.

[RockinHorse]

I clearly understand your position, but as long as they have short stirrup, long stirrup, 2' type divisions, we will have riders in the show ring that cannot handle a horse that is up, green, inexperienced and young.

IMO opinion, horses that are up, green, inexperienced and young should not be in the short stirrup, long stirrrup, 2' type divisions.

[Nikki17]

IMO opinion, horses that are up, green, inexperienced and young should not be in the short stirrup, long stirrrup, 2' type divisions.

Could be true, but not realistic. How many green riders do you see on green horses/ponies? I see a lot.

[MIKES MCS]

I've tried to stay out of this but I just have to add my 2 cents, (I needed to expand on my OYE comment 9 pages back) . It’s been my observation that those who defend the practice of crashing their horses ( with Dex ,B12,& Banimine cocktails) get their information on what it does mainly from their trainer. They are conditioned over the years by those trainers to believe this is the best for their horses and themselves, when in fact it is NOT what it is best, it is however, easier for their trainers, easier for them. Better "training" through better chemicals, and please don't compare feeding your horse with these drugs they aren't performance enhancing they are performance debilitating.. Yes, yes I know trainers now days just don't have the time to train, ride, teach, ect.. they are too busy at the ring coaching, after all that is how they make their living so we justify what we do. Someone asked on another thread why the hunters are so often bashed, it's pretty simple . When all you need to train a horse is a $20.00 bottle of Dex, a $60.00 bottle of Banimine some B12 and 10 cents worth of needles and syringes, No need actually know how to train, You do still need a good eye for a good mover but training and conditioning ? Not all that important anymore. It's all in how you administer the drug of the month. If you had a conditioned horse would you be able to handle it without drugs, probably not, you would actually have to have the time , talent and desire to actually ride it to achieve it, who has that the time anymore. We live in a society where all answers come from drugs , how to control your children , your happiness, your sadness, your aches and pains , your weight, your sleep, we no longer cope with situations we take pills ... is it any surprise that the best trainers know what the best combinations of drugs to achieve the highest quality of hunter in the easiest manor and the fastest time??? It is their job to know, to keep their customer happy and safe.. the justification is in all the satisfied clients who continue to ride with them year after year and defend them because their trainer obviously has there best interest at heart.. In many ways what they are doing is just mirroring the times , can you blame them for trying to sustain an ever increasing clientele who just doesn't have the time.. Hunters and riding in general has become what it has, just the same as the country has become what is has become , We've let it.

[RockinHorse]

Originally Posted by RockinHorse
IMO opinion, horses that are up, green, inexperienced and young should not be in the short stirrup, long stirrrup, 2' type divisions.

Could be true, but not realistic. How many green riders do you see on green horses/ponies? I see a lot.

I think that is the issue to address, not whether or not the trainer should drug the horse/pony.