Calming a Hunter- Depo, Easy Hunter, etc.

[Eventer13]

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but this particular vet does a rip roaring business in "cosmetic enhancements" ...

You bring your plain, unmarked APHA foal to him and he will show you a catalogue of markings and shapes and you pick the one you want, show him where you want it on the foal and he "burns" it on and he is good enough it at it now that it will pass 99% of the scrutiny if anyone questions whether or not the foal was born with it or not ...

He also specializes in stripping the neck muscles out on the Arabians to give them a more "sculpted and chiseled" look and yes - he also grinds down the wither caps on hony's as well ... my understanding is up to 2 1/4 inches can come off before you start doing irreperable harm up there ...

He did also do a lot of nerving on the AQHA and APHA horses - their ears and tails - but now that they have clamped down - hard - on those procedures, it isnt done as much / at all any more

Stinks, doesnt it?! ...

He is ALMOST as wealthy as the other vet, who shall remain nameless, at the Ontario based race tracks, who can induce a heart attack in your pesky horse that isnt running up to snuff by injecting a naturally occuring substance that is already found in their systems, so cannot test, but if O'D'ed on it will put them into a seemingly "natural" heart attack. For that you pay $5000.00 - cash - and then sit back and wait for the insurance money to come in ... That vet does VERY VERY well in their little "side" business

My personal favorite and an absolute Darwin Award candidate, was the vet in Ontario who was happily dispensing medications - legitimately - for many years, including the controlled substances like Winstrol and Equipoise where VERY tight controls are kept on them. For years, he would have a useage of 1-2-3 bottles per month of these products and then all of a sudden, he increased dramatically and every month thereafter, he was buying and dispensing 20-30-40 bottles a month instead! So - he got a knock on the door from the Feds and it was found he was selling it on the black market for thousands more per than he paid, to the body builders and athletes that loved sticking themselves with this stuff ... and he bought a new Mercedes, put in a new spa, bought a new house, etc with the proceeds ... too bad he cant enjoy them anymore. He is sitting in the local jail after being convicted for dealing in narcotics ... the Feds were NOT amused in the slightest ...

Nothing surprises me anymore. No matter what you hear someone doing out there - from the local idiot a few years ago that was trying to kill off his horse and collect the insurance money by taking it to the edge of a cliff and trying to push it over with a friend of his (the horse ran off and ran back to the barn) and they kept trying and still the horse wouldnt co-operate so finally in desperation, on a Saturday morning with boarders and school lesson people in the barn, they stuck a green garbage bag over the horse head to try and suffocate it and when it AGAIN wouldnt co-operate by dropping dead and dying, they took a hammer to its head and started flailing away on it until the parents pulled then off the horse

If there is money involved, anything is possible ...

This whole post... WOW

[2boys]

I am so naive.

I am having such a hard time grasping how widespread the use of personality-altering drugs is. This is sad.

[Marieke]

I don't think you got my point proven with your reply Codeine and advil are totally different. Yes, I understand that some prefer not to take anything but, come on you can't say that giving bute is the same as giving morphine to a horse. again, a gram a bute is not going to mask a major issue. I feel that it's our duty to protect the animals we have chosen to jump, race,etc...it's unfair of us to NOT give them some bute after a long day.

This is just my opinion on my life. I prefer to get a good nights sleep and would not want to be sore (and toss and turn) if I had a long day when all I have to do is take an over the counter anti inflammatory to feel better.

You completely missed the point. Drugs are drugs. You said that people who advocate no drugs on horses should apply the same to their life. I was illustrating that I did. No drugs for my horses, no drugs for me. You asked, I confirmed. End of story.

NSAIDs which bute is, cause thinning of the lining of the GI tract. A gram of bute a day can cause major erosion of the mucus lining. Which then needs to be treated. So one problem leads to the next. Bute is not innocent. There is a reason it is not allowed in humans. Personally, if you take advil or other NSAIDs, I would also combine that with omeprazol, or ranitidine (Zantac). If you want to take it, then that is fine with me, I don't care, that is entirely your choice. And you got some free advice from a pharmacist so you can be happier and not have to put an extra pillow under your head to prevent the acid-reflux (which actually keeps lots of people up at night and is considered one of the worst pains, and NSAIDs won't help you there)

And what happened to systematic developing a horse? I find this so odd? You (no one in particular) think it is ok to give some pain medication. To protect the horse, and it's wellbeing. Isn't it way more in the interest of the horse to be developed, have the time taken to built the muscle, so that when the time comes it can be used properly. Sure after a hard day there will be plenty of lactic acid built up in the muscles, but the best way to treat that is to walk it off. Move those muscles. I find it much more honest to the horse, to built it up then to medicate.

Now there are times and places that a horse truly needs medication. The stallion with the blown hock needs NSAIDs to make the swelling go down. Inflammation impedes improvement, so yes, I will give him that. Because he truly benefits from that. And there are tons of other situations that a horse truly needs it. And I'm absolutely not against that. I also vaccinate

Now, I do have a problem with people buting the horse because he had a hard day, or a hard week. He's an athlete (the horse), you can't expect a pasture potato to jump a GP. (I hope you get my point). Let me ask of you and I hope to get an honest answer. If you think you need to bute your horse after a work out, have you truly been honest to him, have you not used his generosity to please you, and gone to far? Should you not ensure his comfort before the fact and not after the fact?

And in case your reply would be that I have not had a horse at such a high level of competition. I jumped for years at the ZZ-level (5') nationally in the Netherlands, and have succesfully competed I-1 dressage with multiple horses. I do know what top competition means.

And morphine actually activates the horse. It was used in the 70s (?) to give race horses the edge to win.

And then the last thing. If you work a horse to the point that you think he will need some bute to be comfortable, just think about the stress on ligaments and joints. Little tears become big problems as the horse ages.

And I did have to learn the hard.

[TrueColours]

Now I have a question (or two!) that I am really curious about ...

If I was selling my young mare and I absolutely, 100% guaranteed that she "went on her own" with no help whatsoever:

a) would anyone believe me?
b) would anyone care?
c) would anyone pay more money for that fact?

Or does it really not matter at all in the grand scheme of things, because what we achieved through years of proper breeding, management, training and overall "handling" could be replicated so easily with little to no effort through extraneous means???

And for those horses that do need chemical and handling/management help to perform to their potential, do trainers level with each other prior to / after the sale and give a "laundry list" of what you need to do with this horse in order to have it continue to win, or are you pretty well left to your own devices to try and figure things out???

[lauriep]

First question: yes, yes and absolutely, yes. There is always a search going on for something that goes on its own and needs no prep. And you can command a premium price if it is what you say it is.

Second question, some do , some don't but more do. It is much easier to live with your peers if you are honest with them about what a horse needs to do its job, so they can decide if the talent is worth the effort, than not to "share" and have the buyer either claim foul or spend a season or two trying to figure out how to get the result you thought you bought.

[CBoylen]

Yes, no prep is a great selling point. There are very, very few horses that can go from the stall to the ring and perform at their best. However, if the horse is hard to prep, people tend to be upfront about it to protect their reputation. A really special horse that is hard to get to the ring is still saleable, and still worth the money, as long as people are honest about what the buyer is getting into.
I don't think most people consider legal medication to fall into that category though. Whether your horse goes on an NSAID or not is not going to affect your sale in anyway, since it's a standard part of most programs. Most people expect to get directions on what the horse requires in the way of prep and medication, but since everyone shows under the same rules and conditions, they don't expect to hear anything unusual or illegal. The horse's program probably isn't too different from theirs, but it's nice to know what worked best. If the horse comes without a program, they're likely to live with it for a while and then use whatever aspects of their program that suit it.
I think a lot of people have carried away the wrong impression from this discussion. Yes, many people commonly make use of the legal drugs for a wide variety of reasons. You cannot make a lame horse sound on them, nor can you quiet a horse significantly. You can, however, prevent minor soreness from showing conditions from leading to big problems, and help prevent minor issues from affecting performance. Most horses have some form of minor issues, just like most people.
People do not commonly use illegal drugs to show. For the majority of people, the cocktails and the new untestable wonderdrugs from CA or Europe that you hear about are both too risky and unnecessary. Yes, it does happen, but it's a minority of cases, and much less prevelant than rumor makes it out to be.

[In The Gate]

CBoylen -- Just so we're all on the same page, can you define what you would consider "hard to prep" versus "standard"?

[CBoylen]

CBoylen -- Just so we're all on the same page, can you define what you would consider "hard to prep" versus "standard"?

I think that depends on everyone's individual assessment and situation. I personally call anything more than a 30 minute lunge and morning hack hard prep, and I think that's a pretty standard point at which the term hits. Other people may feel that anything more than a 15 minute lunge is hard prep. Other people don't want to lunge at all, and want something where they can roll out of bed at quarter to eight and ride from the stall to the showring.
There are horses out there that require significantly more than my comfort level of prep time to get to the ring, and there are people willing to deal with that for what that horse has to offer otherwise. I had one of those once and I don't want another, but everyone has to compromise on something and some people choose to take on the more difficult to get to the ring horse over compromising on quality or age or the prepurchase or whatever. Serious quality plus easy to prepare equals serious money, but partly due to the fact that it's so rare.

[Foxtrot's]

...however, if your horse means anything to you at all, you will spend enough time preparing him so he is warm, loose and ready to do the competition. These horses go to shows for weeks at a time and have no turnout and live pretty hard lives unless their caregiver is going to, well, care for them. Not just lunged frantically just before a class.

[Marieke]

I will admit any horse that is under 6 will go on the lunge line, but lunging to me means walk trot and in side reins after a warm up. And I do not put a time limit on it, but I use lunging as a tool to relax the back and ease the mind. We easily monotomely walk for several minutes, on my circle, my gait. IT is work. A horse that rips around doesn't loosen it's muscles, doesn't loosen his mind. He only gets fit, really fit.

I started reading this thread because I could use some help. I have a stallion with an injured hock and I want him to be comfortable. I'm glad I came here and I appreciate other's opinions even if their aren't mine. But I am proud that when you buy a horse, or a breeding from me, what you see is what you get.

[TrueColours]

Thats encouraging to know and to hear that the horses that dont require any prep ARE in demand and will possibly garner a premium price as well ...

And I, too, dont consider "prep", allowing a horse to go for a hack or to go on the lunge line for 10-15 minutes, get hand grazed, etc. In lieu of turnout they HAVE to be permitted to move freely, on their own terms for a few minutes every day ...

But its that incessant lungeing, or the lungeing or riding in "shifts" - the "LTD" - that moves away from a simple "let the horse get some kinks out" to bordering on cruelty

[CHF]

This whole thread has made me a bit ill. My horses all go "unprepped" so to speak and all do well. I consider a light lunge for a green horse in the morning (15 minutes or less) good enough to get them relaxed and ready to work, if they have been properly worked/schooled at home and are ready to go to a show.

I have a huge problem with trainers who push the drug (natural or otherwise) on their clients. And especially those who do it without the owners knowledge. Makes me ill.

That being said, sale horses that are "no prep" are definitely a huge bonus in my book. It is probably one of the first things I ask too, when looking at a sale horse.

Not to gloat, but, I currently have a lovely, 16.2 hand, 18 year old packer who can go from his stall at a horse show, to the warmup arena and a few warm up fences (5-7) and straight into the ring ... and win... he is worth his weight in gold. Never needed to lunge him or give him anything more than a tab or two of bute after a very long horse show weekend to make sure he is comfy on his day off. He means the world to us, but I am sure he had a great upbringing to be this wonderful today.

I think that today's society is looking for the "quick fix" and don't have the time to learn how to fix it correctly so they add a bit of pharmaceutical. A sad commentary on society as a whole as it is not just the horse industry.

[Marieke]

I think that today's society is looking for the "quick fix" and don't have the time to learn how to fix it correctly so they add a bit of pharmaceutical. A sad commentary on society as a whole as it is not just the horse industry.

I agree, and you end up being behind the eight ball. Running trying to fix things vs solving the problem. No horse is born perfect, and the 18 yo has his miles and experience. But he was taught how to do it right probably (I don't know you or your hrse). I think the problem rises when we expect the 5 yo to do the same as the 18 yo. Expecting the toddler to have the experience and the poise of a 30 yo human.

But now we push the youngster, because that is fancy, and throw the old experienced packer (who has all the age issues because of buting him as a youngster and pushing him and his joints and ligaments).

Trying to sell the 6 yo that knows less then his peers because he was brought along properly is very hard. First because he knows less, secondly because he is almost deemed to old. It blows me away.

[SSFLandon]

You completely missed the point. Drugs are drugs. You said that people who advocate no drugs on horses should apply the same to their life. I was illustrating that I did. No drugs for my horses, no drugs for me. You asked, I confirmed. End of story.

NSAIDs which bute is, cause thinning of the lining of the GI tract. A gram of bute a day can cause major erosion of the mucus lining. Which then needs to be treated. So one problem leads to the next. Bute is not innocent. There is a reason it is not allowed in humans. Personally, if you take advil or other NSAIDs, I would also combine that with omeprazol, or ranitidine (Zantac). If you want to take it, then that is fine with me, I don't care, that is entirely your choice. And you got some free advice from a pharmacist so you can be happier and not have to put an extra pillow under your head to prevent the acid-reflux (which actually keeps lots of people up at night and is considered one of the worst pains, and NSAIDs won't help you there)

And what happened to systematic developing a horse? I find this so odd? You (no one in particular) think it is ok to give some pain medication. To protect the horse, and it's wellbeing. Isn't it way more in the interest of the horse to be developed, have the time taken to built the muscle, so that when the time comes it can be used properly. Sure after a hard day there will be plenty of lactic acid built up in the muscles, but the best way to treat that is to walk it off. Move those muscles. I find it much more honest to the horse, to built it up then to medicate.

Now there are times and places that a horse truly needs medication. The stallion with the blown hock needs NSAIDs to make the swelling go down. Inflammation impedes improvement, so yes, I will give him that. Because he truly benefits from that. And there are tons of other situations that a horse truly needs it. And I'm absolutely not against that. I also vaccinate

Now, I do have a problem with people buting the horse because he had a hard day, or a hard week. He's an athlete (the horse), you can't expect a pasture potato to jump a GP. (I hope you get my point). Let me ask of you and I hope to get an honest answer. If you think you need to bute your horse after a work out, have you truly been honest to him, have you not used his generosity to please you, and gone to far? Should you not ensure his comfort before the fact and not after the fact?

And in case your reply would be that I have not had a horse at such a high level of competition. I jumped for years at the ZZ-level (5') nationally in the Netherlands, and have succesfully competed I-1 dressage with multiple horses. I do know what top competition means.

And morphine actually activates the horse. It was used in the 70s (?) to give race horses the edge to win.

And then the last thing. If you work a horse to the point that you think he will need some bute to be comfortable, just think about the stress on ligaments and joints. Little tears become big problems as the horse ages.

And I did have to learn the hard.

Ok, you have made your point that you are knowledgeable on many subjects. I did not assume you weren't. However, in short as this thread has gotten ridiculous

I am aware of the effects of using bute on a horse. My father is a doctor whom I worked for, for a period of time. I also do work closely with my vets in addition, have taken courses in college on Stable Management. I have been a successful trainer for 10 years now (and managed show barns both on and off the road prior) and do make myself aware of what will and won't hurt my horses. With that said, I will continue to "help" the ones that need it. Aside from just a hard day there are other reasons to help one and not only internally. At some facilities the ground can get hard at times. I'm sure we've all had horses with sore feet...especially those barefoot. I use magic cushion on mine wrapped with a baby diaper over top. This is a form of help, I will also use Seashore Acres sole paint which has DMSO in it when necessary. Are these forms of help also considered "wrong"? This has nothing to do with seeing a horse is prepared for the ring with proper training. What about after a muddy show day?? can one assume it's abuse to wrap with poultice or a sweat (again containing DMSO, Dex and or cortisone)?? and then there is Surpass.....another topical helper for those with sensitive stomachs or who need help to a particular area

One more issue, what about a mare having a hard/painful heat cycle? Is it NOT ok to put her on a hormone to help..or an herbal. Wow, I can't imagine that time of month with no help!! I used to be in the fetal position at times in pain when I was younger. And yes, I am fine says the Dr. just normal girl problems.

I will go on protecting my horses to the best of my ability and myself . I do not feel I am abusing them nor do their owners.

Thanks for your input. For those that just don't feel help is OK I am perfectly happy to agree to disagree...and I'm sure smartpak's profits have not been effected by this thread

[spoiledsweet]

I consider a light lunge for a green horse in the morning (15 minutes or less) good enough to get them relaxed and ready to work, if they have been properly worked/schooled at home and are ready to go to a show.

Not to single you out, CHF, but I really don't get the assertions that "proper training" will overcome a hot horse's temperament. A horse is either a quiet horse, or it is not. A horse either needs a lot of prep or it does not. In my mind, correct schooling at home is unrelated to a horse's temperament. Do you all really think that the top professionals don't know how to school a horse? Or neglect to warm them up properly? Or don't develop them correctly and that is why they need maintenance and some bute to show? To me these assertions are akin to "every horse should go in a snaffle." Oh really? By all means, try my jumper who goes in a nice long shank at the shows in a snaffle (and who was put in that bit by a GP rider who many of you like and admire) and let me know when you get to the next state. And while you're at it, "train" a quiet disposition into everyone's horses.

Not everyone has to agree on the use of Depo, Dex or herbals, but I am really surprised that so many posters assume that horses needing prep aren't properly schooled. Or that those requiring maintenance should simply be given time off until they are better (if time off would heal arthritis, I would be overjoyed and my wallet would be a lot fatter). Or that a gram of bute will mask a true lameness. To each his own I guess.

[CHF]

spoiledsweet... I apologize for generalizing, and to some extent, I agree with what you said.... yes, there are HOT horses and those that are not, genetics is a wonderous thing. Not all horses go in a snaffle... Not all horses are the same, and all have their own personalities for sure. There is no reason we can't learn what each individual horse needs to be happy and go well.

I also rode a jumper as a junior who I rode in a gag just to stay within the confines of the show grounds, and so I understand that there are those out there that need that control to stay within the state. I also "prep" a jumper differently than a hunter.

I also rode a VERY Hot TB all of my junior years (in the hunters and eq) and it took me three years to figure him out and to finally win consistently. And no, I didn't lunge him to death or give him soothing pharmaceuticals.... I learned to ride him. And yes, I was sad that by the time I learned to ride him I had aged out of the juniors. Oh well, sometimes that is life. What took me three years to figure out, could have probably taken a pro rider MUCH less time, but I chose to LEARN and grow from it.

That is what I am trying to say, people want the quick fix ALL the time. It takes TIME and many people aren't willing to give the time. And that is a whole 'nother thread in itself...

[lauriep]

I will admit any horse that is under 6 will go on the lunge line, but lunging to me means walk trot and in side reins after a warm up. And I do not put a time limit on it, but I use lunging as a tool to relax the back and ease the mind. We easily monotomely walk for several minutes, on my circle, my gait. IT is work. A horse that rips around doesn't loosen it's muscles, doesn't loosen his mind. He only gets fit, really fit.

I started reading this thread because I could use some help. I have a stallion with an injured hock and I want him to be comfortable. I'm glad I came here and I appreciate other's opinions even if their aren't mine. But I am proud that when you buy a horse, or a breeding from me, what you see is what you get.

IMO, this is the ONLY way to properly prepare a horse on the longe. You get them physically and mentally supple and calm. I completely agree that the running around they do, on double longe lines, does not get the desired result, and makes them lame and overly tired, and then too fit.

But, try to tell the trainers to teach their help to longe properly. Not!

[eventmom]

Not to single you out, CHF, but I really don't get the assertions that "proper training" will overcome a hot horse's temperament. A horse is either a quiet horse, or it is not. A horse either needs a lot of prep or it does not. In my mind, correct schooling at home is unrelated to a horse's temperament. Do you all really think that the top professionals don't know how to school a horse? Or neglect to warm them up properly? Or don't develop them correctly and that is why they need maintenance and some bute to show? To me these assertions are akin to "every horse should go in a snaffle." Oh really? By all means, try my jumper who goes in a nice long shank at the shows in a snaffle (and who was put in that bit by a GP rider who many of you like and admire) and let me know when you get to the next state. And while you're at it, "train" a quiet disposition into everyone's horses.

Not everyone has to agree on the use of Depo, Dex or herbals, but I am really surprised that so many posters assume that horses needing prep aren't properly schooled. Or that those requiring maintenance should simply be given time off until they are better (if time off would heal arthritis, I would be overjoyed and my wallet would be a lot fatter). Or that a gram of bute will mask a true lameness. To each his own I guess.

So, for me, the question becomes this....
If in the hunters horses are prized for being quiet, and if you own a hot horse, do you move the horse to a different discipline to suit its temperment, or do you drug it?
We own a pony that has a big motor under saddle. A ton of fun, very nice looking, kind, etc.. but just not suitable as a nice quiet hunter. It never occured to me that I could change his temperment (and thus vocation) by drugging?
Honestly, just asking.... is that was people are doing?

[horsegirl888]

Thanks CBoylen- was thinking that's what I had heard before. He's not studdish; just requires more prep.
May call Juan about the Easy Hunter stuff and see what's in it. And will certainly look into the Daily Calm stuff. Good to see there might be an alternative to more magnesium (don't want to OD).
Yes, I agree that horses shouldn't go around drugged all the time but it's a pretty common practice (right or wrong). And we all have to compete against those horses. It's still legal so I figure it couldn't be tooooo bad....?

Not legal. "Does not test" is not the same as "legal." And just 'cause everyone else is doing it doesn't mean you should- I would rather get an honest 5th or 6th place (regardless of whether the other horses are drugged) than an, ahem, "performance-enhanced" 1st place, but that is your decision.

*Forcibly restraining myself from further comment*

-Horsegirl

[spoiledsweet]

So, for me, the question becomes this....
If in the hunters horses are prized for being quiet, and if you own a hot horse, do you move the horse to a different discipline to suit its temperment, or do you drug it?

I don't think any amount of lunging or magnesium or what have you will make a horse that truly isn't suited for the job into a winner week after week. Certainly some will try, and that's up to them, but I think most experienced and conscientious riders and trainers will a) avoid purchasing an unsuitable horse in the first place; b) sell one that turns out to be so; or c) put it in a more suitable ring. Why waste time and money and make a horse miserable when things clearly aren't going to work? This is not to say there aren't individuals who will resort to all sorts of tactics to fit a square peg into a round hole, but I think they are the exception and not the rule. Most pros don't want to torture their horses or spend inordinate amounts of time trying to get one to the ring. They might spend some time trying different programs for the horse, or even a change of address, but it's been my observation that one that's just not going to do the job will typically get sold into another vocation.