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Calming a Hunter- Depo, Easy Hunter, etc.

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  • I'll just re emphasis the point that no one is advocating either illegal drugs or breaking any rules. Just advocating judicious use of legal drugs.
    The discussion about the effects of the onset of drug testing on horse welfare maybe didn't belong in this particular thread in retrospect, but, I think if everyone takes a step back and reads it in the academic way it was intended, it's still an interesting discussion.
    It is vastly different to give the horse a gram of bute after a hard day, than it is to have him on dex to make him quiet. If the horse truly does have allergies, then certainly, file a D&M report and use it, but if you are filing a D&M to lie that the horse needs dex because of allergies, then you are cheating.
    Dex is a legal drug and thus does not require a medication report.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
      I'll just re emphasis the point that no one is advocating either illegal drugs or breaking any rules. Just advocating judicious use of legal drugs.
      The discussion about the effects of the onset of drug testing on horse welfare maybe didn't belong in this particular thread in retrospect, but, I think if everyone takes a step back and reads it in the academic way it was intended, it's still an interesting discussion.

      Dex is a legal drug and thus does not require a medication report.
      Yes, Dex is a 'legal' drug but I think it's clearer if you say it the way the guidelines do. It's legal for a medical condition but not legal to affect mood or enhance performance.

      But there is really no way to tell which reason it's being given for.
      Fan of Sea Accounts

      Comment


      • Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
        I'll just re emphasis the point that no one is advocating either illegal drugs or breaking any rules. Just advocating judicious use of legal drugs.
        The discussion about the effects of the onset of drug testing on horse welfare maybe didn't belong in this particular thread in retrospect, but, I think if everyone takes a step back and reads it in the academic way it was intended, it's still an interesting discussion.

        Dex is a legal drug and thus does not require a medication report.
        Ok, then don't file the D&M report, I don't show rated often enough to know when one is needed, I had assumed it was for 100% of meds, even if legal, but that is beside the point.

        You is generic from here down, not specifically CB.

        The point is that if you or your trainer is advocating giving dex, not for allergies, or hives, or some other clinical reason, but advocating giving it because it has a convenient side effect of quieting the horses it is given to, then you and your trainer are cheating. As many on this thread seem to believe that this sort of drugging is ok, since the drug is legal, and have rationalized the illegal use, since they cannot get caught, then that is a sad state. It is not horsemanship, nor horse husbandry. It is slimey.

        If you really, truly feel that ace should be legal, then put forth a rule change to allow it. Get a petition in order, get people to sign it. If the dressage committee can push through a performance requirement to move up the levels, the certainly the hunters can push through a drug allowance for ace. Use the welfare of the horse and bad riding and LTD as the justification and explain that it is just the way the industry works now.

        Comment


        • Honestly scrapping all Hunters below 3'6" is going to put alot of people (like 85%) afoot and block many more from ever entering the sport...
          Actually I think that a sport based entirely on the rider's performance and less on the colour of your coat would probably attract a great deal more people. Maybe even some boys

          Comment


          • What an interesting thread! I'm not sure why people are getting their backs' up over it....drugging is present in every sport, EVERY sport. How well you hide it/rationalize it is what makes the difference between a real champion, a winner, and everybody else. It's not fair, but it is the way it is. There is a line in the sand, and you are either on one side or the other. Those who feel there is gray area are just fooling themselves.

            IMO (for what it's worth, maybe not much?) there is a big diff. between giving a 14-18 year old a touch of bute after the week is done to make them comfortable, versus giving your 8 year old Ace and depo before you even get on to warm-up because you, and maybe your trainer, haven't figured out how to get a smart, athletic horse to go quietly and co-operatively over a course. But there is that nasty gray area again, isn't it! Silly me.

            Personally, if I were paying $1000+ per month to see my horse win, then whether I knew what was going on behind the scenes or not, I'd want to get my money's worth too. *shrug* You can either ride, and know horses, or you don't. Just the way it is.

            I wonder what would happen if there was a zero tolerance rule? Where would that leave you and your horse?
            A quick tutorial on interval training: Conditioning your horse for eventing

            Comment


            • Originally posted by WW_Queen View Post
              There is a line in the sand, and you are either on one side or the other. Those who feel there is gray area are just fooling themselves.
              Thank you.
              I have been blathering on for two days and there is it.....2 sentences.
              Nina's Story
              Epona Comm on FB

              Comment


              • Originally posted by silver2 View Post
                Actually I think that a sport based entirely on the rider's performance and less on the colour of your coat would probably attract a great deal more people. Maybe even some boys
                True indeed...
                It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. (Aristotle)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by WW_Queen View Post

                  I wonder what would happen if there was a zero tolerance rule? Where would that leave you and your horse?
                  Theoretically, zero tolerance rules already exist - those would be the FEI (No foreign substance) provisions.

                  It would leave my horse just about where he is now, actually. He wouldn't get to have the (one) tab of bute he gets after showing now... or, I guess, the adequan he gets once a month as a preventative measure.

                  I don't think his life would be dramatically different, but it would probably be slightly less comfortable after working on hard ground, etc. I would still do all the other stuff I do for him - liniment rubs, poultice, hoof packing, massage - and I would still feel confident that he was well cared for.
                  **********
                  We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                  -PaulaEdwina

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by PineTreeFarm View Post
                    Yes, Dex is a 'legal' drug but I think it's clearer if you say it the way the guidelines do. It's legal for a medical condition but not legal to affect mood or enhance performance.

                    But there is really no way to tell which reason it's being given for.
                    True, but I guess given the USEF's history around the drug, it's almost laughable to say it's for "allergies" ... I'd rather we all acknowledge that it is a potent anti-inflammatory with a host of nasty side effects and an unproven but highly popular reputation for acting like benedryl, and there was no popular support for changing the old rule. The key difference between dex and every other legal drug is that the other drugs fall within some rational, acceptable veterinary guidelines for administration. I defy you to say the same about those same guidelines when it comes to dex. In what universe is 5 straight days of 20mg of dex in any way acceptable to the vast majority of vets?

                    FROM USEF GUIDELINES: Each 24 hours, not more than 2.0 milligrams of dexamethasone injectable solution per 100 pounds of body weight should be administered intravenously or intramuscularly, preferably less. For a 1000 pound animal, the maximum daily intravenous or intramuscular dose of dexamethasone injectable solution is 20.0 milligrams, which equals 5.0 milliliters of the injectable solution (4.0 milligrams per milliliter). No part of this dose should be administered during the 12 hours prior to competing. Dexamethasone should not be administered for more than five successive days.
                    You can stitch this pigs ear any way you like, and it still isn't a silk purse. The feel good language the USEF added about using it appropriately is just flat out a cop out and a complete contradiction to what everyone knows is the primary purpose of the drug. Truthfully, if they weren't going to reduce the dosage levels or get rid of it altogether (and I say this a person who owns a headshaking due to allergies), then they shouldn't have dolled up the rule like there was some valid purpose behind that dosage level, ya know?
                    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by WW_Queen View Post
                      ... there is a big diff. between giving a 14-18 year old a touch of bute after the week is done to make them comfortable, versus giving your 8 year old Ace and depo before you even get on to warm-up ...
                      It's a funny thing about gray areas, everyone has a different definition. After watching these boards for the past 8 years, I've seen plenty of people that would firmly condemn YOU for implying that a "touch of bute" is OK. Wherever or whenever, it's all the tool of the anti-horseman. Better wipe that gray stuff off your shoe, looks like you stepped right in a pile of it.
                      Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                      Comment

                      • Original Poster

                        So as the OP I'm excited that I've generated such a conversation- perhaps a bit off topic but I've never had a thread with this many replies!

                        So my take....
                        - that if I don't stop reading COTH threads then I'm not going to have a job then it would be easy to not have to worry about Ace, Dex, Depo, etc. because I won't be able to pay for horsey....

                        But keep chatting!
                        "are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn...I can yawn, because I ride better than you, Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn, you, not so much..." George Morris in Camden, SC

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by SSFLandon View Post
                          This thread has turned into a night mare of ridiculous posts. Come on people, give it a rest. If you don't think your horse should have some bute then don't take anything yourself after a fall or a tough lesson without stirrups! Be sure to rest yourself in bed for about 7 days then start back slowly....
                          Maybe some of us who don't drug are exactly like that. I had ankle surgery in mid-December, with micro-fractures. (God does that freakin' hurt). I got a bottle of 15 pills with hydrocodone, I still have 12 left. Instead I have taken it slow, have strengthened my ankle. So instead of 'covering it up', I have healed.

                          I don't believe in drugs for humans either. (and in case you are wondering, I am a PhD PharmD)

                          Editted to add. I remember my very first class 'Introduction in Pharmacy", where the prof said that we are not curing the disease, we are covering up the symptoms.
                          Marieke

                          www.EquineFashionandTack.com
                          www.Twitter.com/EquineFashion

                          Comment


                          • I have to wonder if it really is as bad a scene at shows as this thread portrays. My daughter events, and I just hack xc for fun now, so i really don't know much about the current big-time hunter show scene. Did do a bit of Devon and Harrisburg 40 plus years ago, and my horse had a good time and so did I. But, if it really is such an unpleasant and unnatural situation for horses that they need daily tranquilizing drugs to be happy.... well why do people who presumably love horses do the scene at all?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by mbj View Post
                              I have to wonder if it really is as bad a scene at shows as this thread portrays. My daughter events, and I just hack xc for fun now, so i really don't know much about the current big-time hunter show scene. Did do a bit of Devon and Harrisburg 40 plus years ago, and my horse had a good time and so did I. But, if it really is such an unpleasant and unnatural situation for horses that they need daily tranquilizing drugs to be happy.... well why do people who presumably love horses do the scene at all?
                              I believe I can answer that question! the "sport" has been corrupted by too much money. When horses are easily worth the 6 figure range, then things happen.
                              a. Your in the business of trying to make your horse more valuable by giving it show miles.
                              b. You haven't got 6 figures sitting around to spend on a horse, but you want to play with the big guys, so you drug something of lesser quality.. either to mask it's pains, or its flawed temperment.
                              Now don't slam me guys. I know not everyone falls into these two categories. but it seems pretty clear to me, that this is what is going on.

                              Comment


                              • I don't know, Eventmom, seems like there are lots of easier ways to make, and spend, money!

                                Comment


                                • I swore I would never do this again but...

                                  Landon and findeight you are right.I have just deleted a very long rant.Its pointless,Iam disgusted .
                                  Brilyntrip

                                  Comment


                                  • I truly believe that the vast majority of top level trainers play well within the rules for the vast majority of horses. And why shouldn't they? Between lunging, dex, B1/Mg shots and a busy show schedule, why risk sanctions? The rules are pretty generous in this regard.
                                    Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by TrueColours View Post

                                      ... or sending that pesky 14.3hh hony to the nice vet who splits open the withers and grinds the wither cap down to give you the 14.2hh pony you need ...
                                      Am I the most naive person on the planet? PLEASE tell me this is just a horrible example from your imagination and not from real life...
                                      ~Living the life I imagined~

                                      Comment


                                      • Am I the most naive person on the planet? PLEASE tell me this is just a horrible example from your imagination and not from real life...
                                        Hate to be the bearer of bad news but this particular vet does a rip roaring business in "cosmetic enhancements" ...

                                        You bring your plain, unmarked APHA foal to him and he will show you a catalogue of markings and shapes and you pick the one you want, show him where you want it on the foal and he "burns" it on and he is good enough it at it now that it will pass 99% of the scrutiny if anyone questions whether or not the foal was born with it or not ...

                                        He also specializes in stripping the neck muscles out on the Arabians to give them a more "sculpted and chiseled" look and yes - he also grinds down the wither caps on hony's as well ... my understanding is up to 2 1/4 inches can come off before you start doing irreperable harm up there ...

                                        He did also do a lot of nerving on the AQHA and APHA horses - their ears and tails - but now that they have clamped down - hard - on those procedures, it isnt done as much / at all any more

                                        Stinks, doesnt it?! ...

                                        He is ALMOST as wealthy as the other vet, who shall remain nameless, at the Ontario based race tracks, who can induce a heart attack in your pesky horse that isnt running up to snuff by injecting a naturally occuring substance that is already found in their systems, so cannot test, but if O'D'ed on it will put them into a seemingly "natural" heart attack. For that you pay $5000.00 - cash - and then sit back and wait for the insurance money to come in ... That vet does VERY VERY well in their little "side" business

                                        My personal favorite and an absolute Darwin Award candidate, was the vet in Ontario who was happily dispensing medications - legitimately - for many years, including the controlled substances like Winstrol and Equipoise where VERY tight controls are kept on them. For years, he would have a useage of 1-2-3 bottles per month of these products and then all of a sudden, he increased dramatically and every month thereafter, he was buying and dispensing 20-30-40 bottles a month instead! So - he got a knock on the door from the Feds and it was found he was selling it on the black market for thousands more per than he paid, to the body builders and athletes that loved sticking themselves with this stuff ... and he bought a new Mercedes, put in a new spa, bought a new house, etc with the proceeds ... too bad he cant enjoy them anymore. He is sitting in the local jail after being convicted for dealing in narcotics ... the Feds were NOT amused in the slightest ...

                                        Nothing surprises me anymore. No matter what you hear someone doing out there - from the local idiot a few years ago that was trying to kill off his horse and collect the insurance money by taking it to the edge of a cliff and trying to push it over with a friend of his (the horse ran off and ran back to the barn) and they kept trying and still the horse wouldnt co-operate so finally in desperation, on a Saturday morning with boarders and school lesson people in the barn, they stuck a green garbage bag over the horse head to try and suffocate it and when it AGAIN wouldnt co-operate by dropping dead and dying, they took a hammer to its head and started flailing away on it until the parents pulled then off the horse

                                        If there is money involved, anything is possible ...
                                        www.TrueColoursFarm.com
                                        www.truecoloursproducts.com

                                        True Colours Farm on Facebook

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Marieke View Post
                                          Maybe some of us who don't drug are exactly like that. I had ankle surgery in mid-December, with micro-fractures. (God does that freakin' hurt). I got a bottle of 15 pills with hydrocodone, I still have 12 left. Instead I have taken it slow, have strengthened my ankle. So instead of 'covering it up', I have healed.

                                          I don't believe in drugs for humans either. (and in case you are wondering, I am a PhD PharmD)

                                          Editted to add. I remember my very first class 'Introduction in Pharmacy", where the prof said that we are not curing the disease, we are covering up the symptoms.
                                          I don't think you got my point proven with your reply Codeine and advil are totally different. Yes, I understand that some prefer not to take anything but, come on you can't say that giving bute is the same as giving morphine to a horse. again, a gram a bute is not going to mask a major issue. I feel that it's our duty to protect the animals we have chosen to jump, race,etc...it's unfair of us to NOT give them some bute after a long day.

                                          This is just my opinion on my life. I prefer to get a good nights sleep and would not want to be sore (and toss and turn) if I had a long day when all I have to do is take an over the counter anti inflammatory to feel better.

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