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Calming a Hunter- Depo, Easy Hunter, etc.

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  • Me too.

    Half a cc of Ace versus hanging it 's head up in the stall overnight, dehydrating, bleeding a quart or so out of them or the good old classic-beating. These will all take any unwanted edge off a horse.

    There are worse things then Ace.

    Of course, people could actually buy something suitable and pay a real trainer with a real program but that's going to cost more and take more time. I would go so far as to say not only do some riders at any level not know what was done to get the horse presentable, they don't CARE. And there are always trainers willing to help them out.

    Nothing new...I was out in the barns at the old multi discipline AAA rated shows 40 years ago and saw more open jugging then at a typical vet clinic.
    When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

    The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Kareen View Post
      The one only thing I find tolerable is pherocalm as it does not only have no side effects (by virtue of its nature) and it also works in the sense of putting a stressed horse in the position to not only improve with time but even feel better about the whole situation. I wonder why it seems to be completely unknown in North America. The stuff has really got quite big here and I think it is great to finally have something at hand that has a positive effect on anything to do with anxiety issues yet without any pharmacologic side effects.
      I have not seen the Pherocalm, but I believe that the Modipher EQ is the same thing.

      http://vetmedicine.about.com/od/equi...PL_011305a.htm

      I have used it with great success.

      Comment


      • A chemical is a chemical, whether delivered by syringe out of a bottle of ace or fed as an herbal supplement of GoodHorsie. It's not breaking news that many of the herbal preparations contain chemicals that work in the same way as the man-made ones. Some of the herbals contain mixtures where the chemicals work together synergistically for a better effect.

        My horse gets some bute or banamine and maybe some robaxin. He gets lunged a bit. That's it. I'm pretty sure of what the horses in the barn are getting b/c I often help with meds before we leave the show for the day. And I really don't think they're sneaking back at night to deliver more drugs. But that's my barn and me. I realize that lauriep and Tini Sea Soldier aren't lying w/ respect to what happens at some barns. Star definitely had his moments when younger--there were a few mid-warmup and even mid-show day lunge sessions when he blew up. As he grew up, things got better. But time is a luxury for many on the circuit these days, for right or for wrong.

        I've never liked the feeling of riding an aced horse, which I've done bringing one back from a layup. Maybe it's something you get used to, or the dosage is less or something.

        To the person with the hypothetical situation of the "up" pony, drugging isn't an option in my state as they can test at any show. They can also test a horse that's entered and then withdrawn, IIRC, so even drugging and then schooling in the warmup ring probably isn't an option. I would have tried to find a better rider to hack the pony, and maybe even show it, if that was an option. That way the pony gets a good experience and will hopefully be better the next time.
        The Evil Chem Prof

        Comment


        • Originally posted by BarbB View Post
          Not claiming higher moral ground. I am well aware that many things that are legal are abusive. Just saying that participation in a "sport" is voluntary, you know the rules going in, what gives some people the right to ignore the rules they don't like?
          If that was what the people you were scorning were advocating, then that's a fine point to make. But since people were saying that maybe it's time we revisited the rules, I don't quite get the judgy pants. It's fine if you don't agree with them, but I see little value in setting the tone as if they were actually breaking the rules and bragging about it on a public BB.
          Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

          Comment


          • Forgot one thing in the above post.

            I've talked to my dad a bit about horses and the calming drugs that are used, both by vets and by trainers seeking a calmer animal. He's a psychiatrist. He says there are far better and safer options available that what is commonly used. My vet says that's the case but they better options are often more $$$'s so cost-prohibitive in most cases.
            The Evil Chem Prof

            Comment


            • Originally posted by DMK View Post
              , but I see little value in setting the tone as if they were actually breaking the rules and bragging about it on a public BB.
              There are alot of people here doing exactly that.
              I don't see any discussion on how to get the rules changed, I see a lot of people saying that it is ok to ignore the rules because that is how it is done.
              And I will take the high moral ground in saying that I will not participate in a sport with the intention of breaking the rules.
              Justify, excuse, explain anyway you want, breaking the rules is breaking the rules.
              Nina's Story
              Epona Comm on FB

              Comment


              • Originally posted by BarbB View Post
                And I will take the high moral ground in saying that I will not participate in a sport with the intention of breaking the rules.
                Good thing you just want to follow the rules instead of treat people with respect AND follow the rules. You misconstrued Ruby Weber's post and ran with it. Like I said, you don't have to agree with what she proposes, but I'd think an equally admirable goal would be to employ the maturity and respect to respond to what is actually written rather than batting at red herrings.
                Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                Comment


                • Hrm. I know that I had a point in my life where to go out and be a normal human being and do my "job", I had to be sedated. Just a little, enough to take the edge off and make me a little giggly, but I could still sit in calculus class and understand what was going on. I even went to horse shows in that time. I know that as a human who has been "drugged" for my job, it's not necessarily a bad thing. I probably rode 10 times better when I wasn't nervous and trying to take a launcher at the oxer, and therapy or "training" in combination with positive experiences had me back to normal in a few months. My horse used to get a lot of work in the morning, and he has since realized that things are not so scary and goes into the ring with just a hack or spin around for 15 minutes. While equating the human mind and the equine may not really work, I don't think it's far off. If we were to allow tranquilizers in some of the unrated divisions, perhaps it would help get the babies some positive experiences without the pounding, and they could then go around without later. I don't, however know how we could do this. 4 ccs would lay many horses out on the floor and I know from handwalking my guy when he was on stall rest that it does really little. Some horses are woozy with one...
                  -Grace

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by DMK View Post
                    Good thing you just want to follow the rules instead of treat people with respect AND follow the rules. You misconstrued Ruby Weber's post and ran with it. Like I said, you don't have to agree with what she proposes, but I'd think an equally admirable goal would be to employ the maturity and respect to respond to what is actually written rather than batting at red herrings.
                    Well, I did make one mistake in my response to Ruby Weber's post. My assertion that I was NOT in the minority was apparently ill judged.
                    Judging by the responses on this post, breaking the rules at will and training with a needle are absolutely the expected, accepted, happy norm for hunters. More power to you.
                    Nina's Story
                    Epona Comm on FB

                    Comment


                    • Why is it ok to give bute or banamine or robaxin when it is not ok to give a calming substance? Seems to me if the horse if off at all he should be rested, not worked on a painkiller.
                      Proud member of People Who Hate to Kill Wildlife clique

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by BarbB View Post
                        Judging by the responses on this post, breaking the rules at will and training with a needle are absolutely the expected, accepted, happy norm for hunters. More power to you.
                        Well I sure am not reading that rule breaking at will is the happy norm in the Hunter ring into this and certainly hope you didn't read that into my responses. But it happens and has always happened in every ring in every discipline...even the FEI zero tolerance venues as some try to slip under the radar with them latest powder or gel that won't test.

                        Personally prefer a proper horse in a proper program with proper practice time...and you bet I know what goes into mine and when it is administered and for what reason. And I don't cheat.
                        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                        Comment


                        • Findeight, there were two different types of posts on this discussion.
                          I was trying to confront the ones who were saying that it is
                          1. ok because everyone does it
                          or
                          2. it is ok because it is better than abusing the animal into submission.

                          I find both of these arguments specious.

                          I was not criticizing the (few) thoughtful posts about legal use of controlled substances.

                          And I agree that abuse goes on everywhere.
                          I am just appalled at the general, voiced acceptance of it in the hunter world....and not just in this very limited discussion. I don't find it a good thing that illegal use of drugs is right out in the open and openly endorsed.
                          Some other disciplines at least have the good sense to be embarrassed and furtive about breaking the rules.
                          Of course, in a perfect world there would be wholesale condemnation of people who abuse animals, physically or with drugs, in pursuit of a ribbon. We all obviously do not live in that perfect world.
                          I don't live under a rock, I just don't accept that some bad behaviors can't be changed.
                          Nina's Story
                          Epona Comm on FB

                          Comment


                          • [QUOTE=BarbB;3093925]There are alot of people here doing exactly that.
                            I don't see any discussion on how to get the rules changed, I see a lot of people saying that it is ok to ignore the rules because that is how it is done.
                            QUOTE]

                            Whew, I'm not sure where to start with you. First, I see no one here doing this. Those of us who are intimately familiar with shows of years ago, and currently, are simply letting others know that 1) this has ALWAYS gone on, even in the sainted days of yore we all (icluding me) long for and 2)that doesn't make it right, no one is claiming it IS right, but the fact is you have to deal with what IS not what you would like it to be, at least in the short term.

                            Not one person here advocates ignoring the rules. Not one. But they ARE saying that the rules themselves allow, by an inability to prove, or even question intent, use of LEGAL substances to obtain other results, real or imagined. As long as the drug test comes back within normal ranges, it is OK to use legal substances. And they aren't always in the horses' best interests, nor administered by knowledgeable people. And work is CONSTANTLY underway to fine tune the rules. The FEI has had to seriously rethink their zero tolerance rule in the face of modern meds and therapies and many think they will eventually determine it necessary to find levels that enhance performance vs levels that don't to allow for these things. The court of public opinion is pushing this. The USEF is always tweaking their rules, and still have a long way to go.

                            It is so easy for you to say that the horse should have another job. Do you know how many legitimately kick along quiet horses there are out there as opposed to the hundreds, or thousands, of people looking for them??? The ratio is infintesimal. The FACT today is that people live in a world where horses are just a small part, because they work other jobs, have families, kids have school and tons of extracurriculars,but yet they have the money and desire to show. No, it isn't ideal, it just is. So, what is to be done for these people? There aren't enough packers to go around, but there are PLENTY of wonderful horses who are well suited to the job, and in a real rider's hands, wouldn't need prep, but for these people who want to show, they do. You have to deal with the world as it is, and these people can't or don't ride as well as they should, but are capable enough to get around a course on a quiet horse. The USEF will never let Ace live again, but I still maintain it is a useful, and least harmful, of the other options.

                            So, what is your solution?
                            Laurie

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lauriep View Post
                              It is so easy for you to say that the horse should have another job.
                              Never said the horse should have another job, that was someone else.

                              I advocate for following the rules of a sport that you voluntarily "compete" in. That's it.

                              Never got into the discussion about what makes a hunter or not or whether they belong in the ring or not. Or any other of the side issues that have been brought up. Not going to get sucked into the oft repeated discussions about training and showing.

                              Follow the rules, or change them, don't justify breaking them. That has been my only point.
                              Nina's Story
                              Epona Comm on FB

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by lcw579 View Post
                                If it was my child I would say no horseshow for you today - I learned to ride on all kinds of hot horses without the use of chemicals and that is how I expect my kid to learn to ride and if she can't then she doesn't show. She is currently riding a rather hot little mare who has good days and bad. Her greatest satisfaction at a show is getting a good round out of this pony. She doesn't really expect to win but hopes to get a good round. Actually, if she was scared I would think the kid wasn't ready to be at a show at all. Come on, what is a kid doing showing that is afraid to ride a pony that is "up" - seems to me the kid is being rushed. I think that is a big problem today too - the rush to get kids showing and pursuing ribbons before they can really ride and control their ponies.
                                And don't call me naive - I was around back in the day and saw the horses being lunged at all hours at Devon and I knew what other people were doing. We just never resorted to that. You took the ride you got on a particular day and were happy with it. And the days when all the pieces fell into place and you got that perfect ride out of your difficult horse were worth more than all the drug enhanced blue ribbons in the world. JMHO
                                This whole thread makes me sad. Just because everyone is drugging and calming their horses doesn't make it right. Justify it all you want - you know you are wrong. People are always looking for shortcuts, but the key to success is just to learn how to ride and that takes years and patience and talent that some people will just never have.

                                I clearly understand your position, but as long as they have short stirrup, long stirrup, 2' type divisions, we will have riders in the show ring that cannot handle a horse that is up, green, inexperienced and young.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by Foxtrot's View Post
                                  Why is it ok to give bute or banamine or robaxin when it is not ok to give a calming substance? Seems to me if the horse if off at all he should be rested, not worked on a painkiller.
                                  The amounts of things like bute, banamine and robaxin that are allowed are not sufficient to mask an injury or lameness. They are meant to be analogous to the rider taking an advil after a long day, and to show respect and compassion for the horse who may otherwise have a bit of muscle soreness or something along those lines.

                                  Calming substances are out of bounds because they are designed to convey an unfair advantage... making the horse easier to ride and showing "performance" that has not been obtained through proper riding and training, but via meds.
                                  **********
                                  We move pretty fast for some rabid garden snails.
                                  -PaulaEdwina

                                  Comment


                                  • I'm sure it happens on a smaller extent at the local level...
                                    It is so much worse at the local level. If I had a dollar for every time I've seen a horse go down in a trailer at the showgrounds because someone was in there injecting it and F'd up? I'd have at least $5. One poor unfortunate animal put a leg through the side as he was seizing. That was a bloody mess.

                                    Personally I see the problem as a need to get horses to go around "perfectly" for people who can't really ride them very well and are unfit and ill-prepared. I understand that this is a need for the professionals who depend on these folks for a living but personally I think that if you can't ride very well you should get a crappy placing to go with your lack of skills. Tranqing a horse is only "better for it" in the context of forcing a good performance with a team that can't acheive it under normal conditions. I also think this is why judging has gone so towards the "quiet" because that is a goal that most can acheive, as opposed to forward, accurate and brilliant which most can't.

                                    IMHO, it all comes down to a lack of good trainers in the US. Lots of good rider but not too many people who can select or breed a prospect then make it into a nice ammy horse. Most of the ammies I know are completely over-mounted and the animals poorly trained. And that is at the "top" level (which considering most of them can barely jump around 3" I don't consider very "top" but there you go).

                                    Again, imho, the best thing that could happen to the horses would be to scrap all the "hunters" below 3'6" and have most ammies compete in equitation or other skill based classes. Dressage or eventing is a much healthier environment for most ammies, especially at the lower levels, imho as results are far more closely tied to the amount of effort you put in and the scores allow you to track your improvement.

                                    Comment


                                    • ICK ICK

                                      Where is Silver Balls when you need him?I would support a three week rant on this subject if he wanted to start.
                                      Brilyntrip

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by brilyntrip View Post
                                        Where is Silver Balls when you need him?I would support a three week rant on this subject if he wanted to start.
                                        In the office filing a protest?

                                        Honestly scrapping all Hunters below 3'6" is going to put alot of people (like 85%) afoot and block many more from ever entering the sport...and going to do squat to stop the problem. I saw plenty stuck to go do 4' back when-God knows with what. Nobody tested for anything and it was considered legal.

                                        Lest some think you can just stroll the grounds today and see a carefree drug zone think again. These people may get careless but they know damn well they are cheating-it's not needle park despite the idea you can get on here. Nah..they sneak around in the dark because they know.
                                        When opportunity knocks it's wearing overalls and looks like work.

                                        The horse world. Two people. Three opinions.

                                        Comment


                                        • Originally posted by Lucassb View Post
                                          The amounts of things like bute, banamine and robaxin that are allowed are not sufficient to mask an injury or lameness. They are meant to be analogous to the rider taking an advil after a long day, and to show respect and compassion for the horse who may otherwise have a bit of muscle soreness or something along those lines.

                                          Calming substances are out of bounds because they are designed to convey an unfair advantage... making the horse easier to ride and showing "performance" that has not been obtained through proper riding and training, but via meds.
                                          I was getting so frustrated reading this I was about to skip the rest and post exactly what you said here. If horse is actually lame/injured there is NO way the allowed amount of bute or banamine is going to make it sound 12 hours (minimally) later. Sure it may help some minor soreness but, that is it.

                                          This thread has turned into a night mare of ridiculous posts. Come on people, give it a rest. If you don't think your horse should have some bute then don't take anything yourself after a fall or a tough lesson without stirrups! Be sure to rest yourself in bed for about 7 days then start back slowly....

                                          Comment

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