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Calming a Hunter- Depo, Easy Hunter, etc.

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  • Original Poster

    Knew of a horse who lived pumped up to the hilt on drugs so that he could show mostly sound. The owners carried on this system for about 3 years before the drugs were no longer enough and decided to retire the horse. He went to a retirement farm where they pulled his shoes and despite the owner's wishes to stay on the Robaxin and Equioxx they pulled the drugs. In 6 months the horse was sound!
    I'm starting to think that all we do to help may be not helping at all; not to mention the ethical/legal dispute.
    "are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn...I can yawn, because I ride better than you, Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn, you, not so much..." George Morris in Camden, SC

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Equino View Post
      The farm I worked at gave all 5cc's for two nights prior the show.
      So, you had an entire show string of horse with allergies, eh?
      And it only manifested at shows?
      "It's like a Russian nesting doll of train wrecks."--CaitlinandTheBay

      ...just settin' on the Group W bench.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by acyates View Post
        Are we talking about Depo MEDROL (the steroid) or Depo PROVERA (hormones)?
        I'm assuming we are all talking about Depo PROVERA. The hormones DO have a positive, meaningful effect on most horses, even geldings. I don't know if I'd use the word "Calming", tho. I've seen it 'even out' snotty attitudes in a couple of mares and geldings that I just could easily dig a hole for, their behavior was *that* bad. They weren't unrideable, and all I'm thinking of are/were broke well and had no other descernable issues. They are just jerks.

        I'm generally FOR showing a horse without all the "extra help" via syringe. BUt I do see value in using Depo with horses that you just can't seem to work with. I suggested it to a friend for her horse. She's more anti-needle than me and has refused. It's worth noting that she hasn't found anything via training or medical issues that have changed the horse's crappy attitude. By all accounts the horse is healthy and sound with properly fitted tack, a good rider, and the teeth and feet aren't a factor. He's just a major league jack @$$ from time to time and I think a trial of Depo would be worth the effort with this critter. But I don't get a vote, so.... (yes, she's here! up to her to discuss)

        As to side topics... I've had this discussion with an STB trainer too. Aside from NSAIDs to offset bad days/crap footing/ ooboos from hitting jumps/ etc., we are both pretty opposed to the "pharmaceutical route" to the winner's circle. Lasix, I'll give you that in a race horse, even tho it's probably performance enhancing. and Gastroguard, especially if your horse is the nervous tummy sort. I've seen a few that need it the night before they show, especially if they are a division that takes multiple days. They are OK the first day, and then 'not right' the second. The GG keeps the tummy on an even keel, and they troop right around. For one in particular, I think it's the trailer ride more than the performance!

        FWIW, I've tried a bunch of so-called "calmers" on horses on stall rest or limited excercise, trying to avoid long term use of tranqs/sedatives. They are all pretty much complete CRAP. Not even a placebo effect on ME!

        Comment


        • To AlterEgoMe-- The list you gave includes Banamine and Naproxin. I may have this wrong, but isn't that "stacking"-- i.e. adding Banamine to an NSAID and illegal? Yes, I could check the USEF rulebook, but I'm just curious. Damn. I'm a trainerless ammy and at least I know what stacking means, that it's not ok and where to look to figure out what's legal and not.

          What I don't understand about any of these drugging-til-wrecked situation is why the trainers stay in business. What owner comes back for more when her first-year horse is used up?

          Finally, I think both sides in the debate-- the "purists" or "there's no drug that's not performance-enhancing" and the "literalists" or "if it's not legally off-limits than, by definition, it's not a problem"-- need to use better language. Purists imply that the other side would do as much training by needle as possible. But those in favor of drugs with legal limits and uses seem a little disingenuous when they write about "a little help" as though they are minimizing the pain-killing or calming (or whatever) benefit they are getting. Be honest: You are disguising some pain and limiting inflammation to some extent with 2 grams of bute per 24 hour period. You just aren't killing more pain than that.

          Someone somewhere decided that some level of masking was ok. Some of this has to do with making animals comfortable as they please humans. But I think much more has to do with trainers' interest in keeping the showing industry alive.... complete with horses to go into the ring week in, week out.
          The armchair saddler
          Politically Pro-Cat

          Comment


          • "The idea behind dex is it has an antihistamine effect so can make you/horse drowsy. I think as any steriod works it's way out of the system, there can be an "up" reaction. All I know is I give my mare dex when we show indoors because she has allergies and will cough the entire time. I find the amount allowed under the USEF rules is enough to keep her comfortable, so I don't need to file a medical report, but I would if it was required. I give her dex at night for two days prior the show (upon recommendation of my vet) and she rides/preps the same as she does without."


            I am very amused with above quote. Dexamethasone is a potent STEROID. It's not an antihistamine and it doesn't "turn into one" after a few hours. It is an antiinflammatory and so may help with allergic cough/symptoms. I am not aware of dexamethasone's particular effects on horses but I am a doctor and in humans it's main side effect is behavioral problems (agitation, insomnia) in the short term. Also weight gain/fluid retention. In the long term it is a POTENT POTENT immunosuppression agent that increases risk of infection (thinking of thrush, etc.) and dexamethasone is so potent that it can do this at very low doses. It also decreases the body's ability to produce a stress response (response to infection, trauma). Long term use of this drug (>14 days) is very dangerous unless you are being advised by a vet and you should all very very careful about what you are doing to your horses without a vet's advice. I had no idea that this stuff was being used like this. I am frankly in shock. We would NEVER treat a human like this with this drug I cannot believe people are doing it to their horses.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rockfordbuckeye View Post
              "The idea behind dex is it has an antihistamine effect so can make you/horse drowsy. I think as any steriod works it's way out of the system, there can be an "up" reaction. All I know is I give my mare dex when we show indoors because she has allergies and will cough the entire time. I find the amount allowed under the USEF rules is enough to keep her comfortable, so I don't need to file a medical report, but I would if it was required. I give her dex at night for two days prior the show (upon recommendation of my vet) and she rides/preps the same as she does without."


              I am very amused with above quote. Dexamethasone is a potent STEROID. It's not an antihistamine and it doesn't "turn into one" after a few hours. It is an antiinflammatory and so may help with allergic cough/symptoms. I am not aware of dexamethasone's particular effects on horses but I am a doctor and in humans it's main side effect is behavioral problems (agitation, insomnia) in the short term. Also weight gain/fluid retention. In the long term it is a POTENT POTENT immunosuppression agent that increases risk of infection (thinking of thrush, etc.) and dexamethasone is so potent that it can do this at very low doses. It also decreases the body's ability to produce a stress response (response to infection, trauma). Long term use of this drug (>14 days) is very dangerous unless you are being advised by a vet and you should all very very careful about what you are doing to your horses without a vet's advice. I had no idea that this stuff was being used like this. I am frankly in shock. We would NEVER treat a human like this with this drug I cannot believe people are doing it to their horses.
              Thank You for posting! You said what I was trying to say about dex, much more eloquently. I tend to go short hand typing.
              It never ceases to amaze me what people will do to "win". I probably come off sounding holier than thou.....not my intention. It is just that I love horses and don't care much for the attitudes I have seen when I showed.

              I am not "pure" My mare, at present, during transition is on hormones....she is so painful ovulating she hates to work....I do believe there is a time and place for certain medications. I am not presently actively showing. Do they calm her? No....they do bring her to her "normal" self who is fun to ride and forward.
              Last edited by Parrotnutz; Sep. 1, 2009, 05:45 AM. Reason: spelling
              Adriane
              Happily retired but used to be:
              www.ParrotNutz.com

              Comment


              • Long term use of this drug (>14 days) is very dangerous unless you are being advised by a vet and you should all very very careful about what you are doing to your horses without a vet's advice. I had no idea that this stuff was being used like this. I am frankly in shock. We would NEVER treat a human like this with this drug I cannot believe people are doing it to their horses.
                Yeah- I think some vets know... you have to get Dex from a vet (or prescription)... so you'd think the vet would know that Hunter Barn A runs through Dex like oats. And would perhaps not prescribe it so easily.

                I think you have a giant grey area, precisely because a little help can keep a good guy going and enjoying his job- just like an advil makes riding more fun for some of us. But you have people who push that and it is not right. But you also have people pretty much hell bent on winning every weekend on a competitive schedule... so the trainer makes it happen. Sad at the cost to the horse. Too bad there is always a trainer to make it happen vs more who say, "week off", "need more lessons", "horse needs a new job".

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Dirty Little Secret View Post
                  Recently a BNT and I got to chatting about my horse that I have moved into the 1st years. He is green and does tend to be up and requires a good lunge on the first day of schooling and a light lunge the first day of showing.
                  The BNT asked what he's on to address his 'upness' and I told her Quiessence was it and that I try to keep him away from any grain. She mentioned that ALL of her hunters get depo (including geldings) and mentioned some other formulas that Juan Gamboa sells (Easy Hunter or something like that). She almost laughed at me because I hadn't a clue what she was talking about. Shows my experience huh?

                  Have you all used these in your hunters? What type of success do you have with them? Side effects? Dosages? What are the ingredients in Easy Hunter?
                  I'd suggest you lunge out the kinks. It is too big of a risk with drugs (side effects, not passing drug tests etc.). Maybe get your horse a blood test and see if he is deficient in anything and giving him supplements as needed. There is a natural supplement company called Herbs for Horses who has several great (legal) supplements (such as chill, however use an anti-ulcer drug as many horse I know who have been on it seem to have developed stomach ulcers whilst on it...) I use two 'drugs' on my mare (4 year old thoroughbred) when we go places called Mellow Out and Clear Thinking. Again its natural and legal. I am not sure what the companies name is, but I highly recommend those 'drugs' as they do wonders to my horses personality

                  There are ways not to use chemicals to drug your horse, ways that will in the long run be much safer for the horse

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Maya01 View Post
                    I'd suggest you lunge out the kinks. It is too big of a risk with drugs (side effects, not passing drug tests etc.). Maybe get your horse a blood test and see if he is deficient in anything and giving him supplements as needed. There is a natural supplement company called Herbs for Horses who has several great (legal) supplements (such as chill, however use an anti-ulcer drug as many horse I know who have been on it seem to have developed stomach ulcers whilst on it...) I use two 'drugs' on my mare (4 year old thoroughbred) when we go places called Mellow Out and Clear Thinking. Again its natural and legal. I am not sure what the companies name is, but I highly recommend those 'drugs' as they do wonders to my horses personality

                    There are ways not to use chemicals to drug your horse, ways that will in the long run be much safer for the horse
                    But "herbs" are "chemicals" and you are deluding yourself if you think you are "going natural" and that makes it OK.
                    "Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?" Sun Tzu

                    My Blog!

                    Comment


                    • Actually, vets are probably quite aware that some barns burn through "unrealistic" amounts of dex or bute or whatever. However, those barns also tend to generate an enormous amount of business.

                      As others have said, the horse show world seems to run in a giant "gray zone" but also within a "don't ask, don't tell" kind of policy between trainers, owners and vets.

                      Killing pain is one thing (and not a truly admirable one). But changing a horse's personality seems another, at least to me. I guess that's because I see pain related to common problems like osteoarthritis as manageable, but not curable. I also think that horses benefit from being kept useful longer, rather than used up quickly because we want them to be FEI sound for the length of their career. The vast majority cannot and risk becoming unwanted.

                      Changing mental or emotional reactions by chemical means seems different. In young horses, it means someone hasn't been willing to put in the time to train them. That's somewhere between ungenerous and wrong, IMO. I really worry about the acceptability of changing a horse's mind when I think about breeding. Rumor has it, for example, that Rox Dene lived on ReguMate. That's fine so long as no one wanted to build a breeding empire around her as the "ideal hunter." She might look, move and jump the part. But I would not include her mind in that package if she indeed needed this kind of hormone regulation. The mind, I submit, is a valuable and more or less breedable character that we ought to care about. I would not want to buy a horse descended from a long line of champions...that remained champions by virtue of serious pharmaceutical help to mind or body.
                      The armchair saddler
                      Politically Pro-Cat

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Maya01 View Post
                        There is a natural supplement company called Herbs for Horses who has several great (legal) supplements (such as chill, however use an anti-ulcer drug as many horse I know who have been on it seem to have developed stomach ulcers whilst on it...) I use two 'drugs' on my mare (4 year old thoroughbred) when we go places called Mellow Out and Clear Thinking. Again its natural and legal. I am not sure what the companies name is, but I highly recommend those 'drugs' as they do wonders to my horses personality

                        There are ways not to use chemicals to drug your horse, ways that will in the long run be much safer for the horse
                        Do you know what ingredients are in the stuff you are using?
                        And who said they were 'legal', the manufacturer, or did you run it by USEF?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by mvp View Post
                          To AlterEgoMe-- The list you gave includes Banamine and Naproxin. I may have this wrong, but isn't that "stacking"-- i.e. adding Banamine to an NSAID and illegal? Yes, I could check the USEF rulebook, but I'm just curious. Damn. I'm a trainerless ammy and at least I know what stacking means, that it's not ok and where to look to figure out what's legal and not
                          Two NSAIDs are legal as long as they are not bute and banamine together. Stacking infractions are three or more.

                          Comment

                          • Original Poster

                            That horse is long gone. didn't have the brain.
                            "are you yawning? You don't ride well enough to yawn...I can yawn, because I ride better than you, Meredith Michael Beerbaum can yawn, you, not so much..." George Morris in Camden, SC

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by mvp View Post
                              Rumor has it, for example, that Rox Dene lived on ReguMate. That's fine so long as no one wanted to build a breeding empire around her as the "ideal hunter." She might look, move and jump the part. But I would not include her mind in that package if she indeed needed this kind of hormone regulation. The mind, I submit, is a valuable and more or less breedable character that we ought to care about. I would not want to buy a horse descended from a long line of champions...that remained champions by virtue of serious pharmaceutical help to mind or body.
                              I have to laugh at this. Probably 98% of the mares that show show on regumate or depo. Rox Dene however is the only hunter I've ever met that never once lunged for a show. Her mind was probably what made her so good. You've picked one of the only things she had in common with other horses in an attempt to make her seem unusual.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
                                I have to laugh at this. Probably 98% of the mares that show show on regumate or depo. .
                                Ditto

                                For all of you out there who are on birth control (depoprovera, the pill, nuvaring, etc.), does it make you "quieter"? No, but you may be more relaxed when you ovulate because you aren't experiencing the hormonal swings or painful cramps that may occur with ovulation.

                                Personally, I don't think depo or regumate has an effect on geldings.

                                For mares, though, it may have the same effect that BC has on humans - fewer cramps, less discomfort during ovulation, fewer hormonal swings, not "in heat" so much, not as inclined to flag their tail as you are about to jump the in-and-out, and so on. And all of those things can affect their way of going, performance in the ring, and their personal comfort. For anyone who has had a mare who seems debilitated or in a lot of pain when they ovulate, you know what I mean.

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                  To AlterEgoMe-- The list you gave includes Banamine and Naproxin. I may have this wrong, but isn't that "stacking"-- i.e. adding Banamine to an NSAID and illegal? Yes, I could check the USEF rulebook, but I'm just curious. Damn. I'm a trainerless ammy and at least I know what stacking means, that it's not ok and where to look to figure out what's legal and not.
                                  nope, not illegal. As C.Boylen noted, the only two unstackable Rx is bute and banamine.

                                  Funny thing, that rule has been around for ... ever. And it's a good rule. stacking nsaids in general is not a healthy thing for horse or human. but this was back when those were pretty much the only two nsaids around and the then ahsa agreed it was a rule for the good of the horse. yay for them. then a bunch of other nsaids became available - arquel, ketaprofen, diclofenic, equioxx and so on. Funny thing, the rule wasn't updated to include all the new generation of nsaids out there. And it's not like stacking other nsaids is any better than the original two. But it seems obvious that the failure to update that rule was pretty clearly NOT in the interest of the horse, but in the interest of the pocketbook. I think that's about the only argument you can make for dex as well.

                                  The therapeutic Rx rule is a good thing in general, and most people don't abuse common sense(overuse of dex, stacking permitted nsaids). But the rule in its modern construct sure leaves itself wide open for abuse.
                                  Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by LH View Post
                                    Ditto

                                    For all of you out there who are on birth control (depoprovera, the pill, nuvaring, etc.), does it make you "quieter"? No, but you may be more relaxed when you ovulate because you aren't experiencing the hormonal swings or painful cramps that may occur with ovulation.

                                    Personally, I don't think depo or regumate has an effect on geldings.

                                    For mares, though, it may have the same effect that BC has on humans - fewer cramps, less discomfort during ovulation, fewer hormonal swings, not "in heat" so much, not as inclined to flag their tail as you are about to jump the in-and-out, and so on. And all of those things can affect their way of going, performance in the ring, and their personal comfort. For anyone who has had a mare who seems debilitated or in a lot of pain when they ovulate, you know what I mean.

                                    Me Three.....

                                    I was just about to type out what this quote says...thanks for saving me time. I have owned my mare since she was 3...she was sold to me already on regumate <yikes> I took her off after fall.....she didn't do any better with or without it. She is always fine spring into summer but come end Aug she has terrible pain as in when I apply leg she hates it.....never bothers her the rest of the year more than a "normal" horse This is my vet and I decided to try injectable hormones....she is her normal Mare self....which is not "charming" but she still wants to work. She is no quieter than not on hormones.

                                    My vet did say Geldings on given about 4 times the dose my mare is on to try and "quiet them" . So again I am talking about theraputic doses versus outragous amounts of medications.

                                    My mare's performance is not enhanced by hormones....that is not what it is used for. People sure to like to "split hairs" on touchy subjects.
                                    Adriane
                                    Happily retired but used to be:
                                    www.ParrotNutz.com

                                    Comment


                                    • Originally posted by mvp View Post
                                      To AlterEgoMe-- The list you gave includes Banamine and Naproxin. I may have this wrong, but isn't that "stacking"-- i.e. adding Banamine to an NSAID and illegal? Yes, I could check the USEF rulebook, but I'm just curious. Damn. I'm a trainerless ammy and at least I know what stacking means, that it's not ok and where to look to figure out what's legal and not.

                                      What I don't understand about any of these drugging-til-wrecked situation is why the trainers stay in business. What owner comes back for more when her first-year horse is used up?
                                      Without getting too specific, that is why I am using an Alter after all... These owners are LOVELY people who have great affection for their horses (they have several, showing and retired) but not a lot of in-depth knowledge. They consider the trainer their friend - someone who would only do what is best for them and their horses.

                                      I was aware of some of the things these horses were getting thru casual observation, no one really seemed to want to hide it from me. I only found out the extent of the list when I picked up my box of Adaq and Legend from the vet and as a favor picked up this owners box of meds. When I got to the barn I said "What the hell is in here?" (Box weighed over 10 pounds I am sure.) Owner pulled out her invoice and showed me. Then told me what her horse gets at each show.

                                      The fact that the horse was shown for two weeks of every month and did double divisions on all those meds does not register as a cause for his current state. I am not sure whether the owners were aware that the horse was coming home body sore with goofy skin conditions from every show. The answer to these problems was one more syringe full of something.

                                      I am not even going to discuss the other horse 'cause that owner has no excuse. She has the knowledge about both what the horse is getting and what the stuff does and she is still playing it like its no big deal.

                                      Today was my day to have the "big move out talk", but work just got in the way and I will not make it to the barn today. Another day to stew about it. Sigh.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by SSFLandon View Post
                                        I found with my A.D.D. youngster that spending the night outside made a HUGE!!!! difference in him. He was not wild but, a bit spooky though still green. He would come out so nice and relaxed the next day. I guess you can only do this at the shows that offer turnout though.
                                        You would think that the concept of turn out was rocket science as so few get it.

                                        Comment


                                        • Turnout can be a bit of a double-edged sword in a show situation tho. Horses that are used to being out all night are now confined to a stall - making some more frisky than the trainer/rider is used to which could send things down that nasty path we have been discussing.

                                          Mine get lots of turnout, it is one thing I may have to give up when I kiss this place goodbye.

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