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Calming a Hunter- Depo, Easy Hunter, etc.

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  • Originally posted by Ghazzu View Post
    I think what the previous poster was saying is that there is a bent vet north of the border willing to perform the unethical surgery.
    (No reflection on Canada; I've heard there are some in the US, as well.)
    There are definitely some in the US. I've heard it referred to as "shaving the withers" which sounds innocuous until you realize it's not hair that's being shaved.

    It amazes me that people can talk about things like this in a nonchalant manner, as if it's routine and acceptable. Same with things like "Easy Hunter" - what kind of trainer tells a virtual stranger that their horses go on drugs with secret ingredients? Just plain dumb.
    Please don't sabotash my conchess.

    Comment


    • I can't believe it is a good idea to sell a secret calming formula with secret ingredients. I'd be worrying about being sued if a user's horse tested positive for anything..... LOL, I imagine it is something inert.

      For the record, I used to feed my horse Smart Calm Ultra. She is not a show horse. I swore up and down that it kept her quiet. Then I got tired of paying for it, so stopped using it. She is the same horse. I think it has a placebo effect for the rider... The big thing that made her quiet was the change in turn out.

      I do think it is hard for today's show horse, and imagine that many of the ones literally being trained with a needle could probably do much better with more turnout. But the system doesn't allow that. I think there are times that a sedative is a useful item. But as a steady part of an ongoing competitive program? It probably gets to be overkill. But you know, if the word of the day is win, and people can't take a few shows of losing, I guess trainers need to do what they gotta do.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
        I just feel it allows the exhibitors with the chemist in their back pocket to have a huge unfair advantage over other exhibitors who choose to show their horse "on its own"

        Not to mention what's in the best interest of the horse.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Equino View Post
          I disagree people are giving a dose that is "considerably higher which often results in a calming affect." I've heard of horses who needed dex for whatever severe allergic reactions getting up to 10cc's twice a day. Legal is much less than that and 12 hours out. I worked at a big show farm and it was routine to give several of the show horses dex, not saying I agree, but they would get a MUCH smaller dose, 3-5cc's the night before the show.
          unless you know the mg/ml, it's tough to say that 10cc was "less than" the usef dose. The typical 5cc usef dose is based on the 4mg/ml concentration which would be 10cc of the 2mg/ml concentration. And it's not really fair to compare a high dose for a short term acute condition to the dosing some show horses get, which can go on for years. That just takes their cortisol to fubar levels. any human who has been on long term powerful steroids for legitimate - even life saving - reasons will tell you they are highly unpleasant.
          Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

          Comment


          • Which "depo"?

            Are we talking about Depo MEDROL (the steroid) or Depo PROVERA (hormones)?

            Comment


            • I agree! All natural ingredients that work do so because of the all natural chemicals they contain. And again, thank you Rebe, and Lucassb for pointing out that it doesn't matter if a substance is legal or not, the only thing that matters is the intent to influence the horse's performance. Just because your trainer does it does not mean you should. Use your own judgment! Just because it's a common practice to speed, or cheat on your taxes do you think you should do it?

              If your horse is green then you may need to take more time introducing him/her to the whole idea of getting into a moving box to some unknown destination with strange sounds, and sights, and then being ridden with a bunch of strange horses and people everywhere. Think about it. Don't rush him and he'll relax a lot quicker. Don't expect anything of him and let him figure it all out in his own time. You'll be a lot happier with the results if you use this method than if you try to quick fix by drugging. Regardless of whether you think it's legal or not what you are doing is drugging your horse.
              "But if you buy them as ponies aren't they cheaper?" - Favorite non-horse person quote.

              Comment


              • DMK very well said.

                EQUINO...I'm not sure I understand what there is to disagree about; some people will administer a considerably higher dose of dex in an effort to obtain a calming effect.

                People do it. They give dex for completely non therapeutic reasons. They give it to calm the horse so he will perform better in the show ring. (period)

                ACYATES..I think the OP was asking about Depo provera.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Addison View Post
                  Across Sicily....When Dex is used for the treatment of an allergic reaction and given at what is considered a therapeutic dose, it may result in an "up" type of effect. When used illegally for the show ring, the dose is considerably higher which often results in a calming affect.
                  And it also causes Founder and used regularly with suppressed the immune system leading to big issues

                  let me add....I am not talking about Theraputic amounts recommended by you vet....but the practice of using it as a "calming agent"
                  Adriane
                  Happily retired but used to be:
                  www.ParrotNutz.com

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Addison View Post
                    DMK very well said.

                    EQUINO...I'm not sure I understand what there is to disagree about; some people will administer a considerably higher dose of dex in an effort to obtain a calming effect.
                    I'm sure some do. I was pointing out if dex is given in legal amounts, we're talking 5cc's, hardly a considerably high dose. The farm I worked at gave all 5cc's for two nights prior the show. My mare, who has allergies and will cough if in an indoor or humid weather, does very well on that amount, so I don't have to give her a considerable high dose, and I am still clear under the rules, so I don't need to file a medical report.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by TrueColours View Post
                      Years ago I bought this lovely, stunning mare that had won in the Conformation Division for several years running and was really at the top of her game in every way possible ... 16.2hh, stunning mare, beautiful mover and jump and had our best hunter rider up on her

                      I saw her at a dealer's that I frequented at the time, at the end of show season and about fell over at her asking price of $2500.00!!!
                      What a sad story!! Please tell me you saved her

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Equino View Post
                        I'm sure some do. I was pointing out if dex is given in legal amounts, we're talking 5cc's, hardly a considerably high dose. The farm I worked at gave all 5cc's for two nights prior the show. My mare, who has allergies and will cough if in an indoor or humid weather, does very well on that amount, so I don't have to give her a considerable high dose, and I am still clear under the rules, so I don't need to file a medical report.
                        i think what a lot of folks are saying is that 20mg (5cc of the 4mg dose) IS a lot to give for every show, week in, week out. That said, i have a headshaker, and yeah, when we showed on grass @ biltmore in the height of summer, he too needed a 2-3 ccs to tolerate that environment. but 2 nights for a 2-3 shows a year is a far, far diff't story than 20mg per dose times 4Xweek times 20 shows/year times several years. And I'm afraid that scenario isn't as rare as you might hope/think.

                        i do remember in the early 90's when we used to give dex like it was candy, before the drug rules were clarified and before we knew it had such dangerous side effects. Given in ignorance is one thing, but its hard to stomach it being administered the same way in the face of knowledge. Especially since some fairly informed people think that its calming effect is 50% imagined and 50% due to its anti-inflammatory (and hence painkilling) properties.
                        Your crazy is showing. You might want to tuck that back in.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive View Post
                          I'd just like to emphasize what LucassB said:

                          ANYTHING (yes ANYTHING) that you give a horse with the intent to alter that horse's performance is against the rules. It doesn't matter if the substance is specifically banned or not or if you use it within the "legal" limits or not. Anything you give your horse with the intent to alter performance is illegal. So don't do it.

                          I have so had enough of people trying to get around the drugging rules. Seriously, learn how to ride and stop cheating.
                          I don't know about this post. I mean, yes, in theory everything would be cheating but why then are there legal limits to drugs. I mean if I give my old horse bute to ease his pain, ultimately allowing him to walk the lines, I am cheating. But the rules say I CAN give him that so why are the rules promoting cheating. I am not naive, I know there are abuses all over but to some extent, some use of these "performance altering" drugs is LEGAL otherwise ban everything!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by CBoylen View Post
                            I'm sorry, but "legal" is legal. Everything anyone does for a horse is with the intent to affect its performance, otherwise you wouldn't give it. That goes for its feed, adequan, legend, electrolytes, and basically any supplement you can think of or any treatment you can give it. If you didn't think it helped the horse's performance, directly or indirectly, you wouldn't be using it. So if a medication is legal and safe to use, or has legal limits, I have no problem with anyone using it within those limits. That's why we have therapeutic substance rules. We have enough trouble trying to keep people from using things that are illegal; we don't need to go after the people who are playing by the rules. The rules are the same for everyone.
                            AMEN!

                            Comment


                            • Lets Chat...I agree with you and CBolen stated it well...there are a few people on this board (and elsewhere) that do feel we should all show under what are essentially FEI rules regarding medication. However, the vast majority of us in the hunter world do understand that a horse may continue to have a long and successful show career with a little help from an NSAID. Those are not considered illegal performance enhancing drugs. A horse that has arthritis in his hocks, fetlocks or where ever will most likely not benefit from better training and it should not preclude him from competing in the hunter ring. On the other hand, a horse that is too hot or spooky should not have the playing field leveled by a performance enhancing drug. He may need more/better training or he may need to find another job.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Addison View Post
                                Lets Chat...I agree with you and CBolen stated it well...there are a few people on this board (and elsewhere) that do feel we should all show under what are essentially FEI rules regarding medication. However, the vast majority of us in the hunter world do understand that a horse may continue to have a long and successful show career with a little help from an NSAID. Those are not considered illegal performance enhancing drugs. A horse that has arthritis in his hocks, fetlocks or where ever will most likely not benefit from better training and it should not preclude him from competing in the hunter ring. On the other hand, a horse that is too hot or spooky should not have the playing field leveled by a performance enhancing drug. He may need more/better training or he may need to find another job.

                                Amen....
                                Adriane
                                Happily retired but used to be:
                                www.ParrotNutz.com

                                Comment


                                • Originally posted by DMK View Post
                                  i think what a lot of folks are saying is that 20mg (5cc of the 4mg dose) IS a lot to give for every show, week in, week out. That said, i have a headshaker, and yeah, when we showed on grass @ biltmore in the height of summer, he too needed a 2-3 ccs to tolerate that environment. but 2 nights for a 2-3 shows a year is a far, far diff't story than 20mg per dose times 4Xweek times 20 shows/year times several years. And I'm afraid that scenario isn't as rare as you might hope/think.

                                  i do remember in the early 90's when we used to give dex like it was candy, before the drug rules were clarified and before we knew it had such dangerous side effects. Given in ignorance is one thing, but its hard to stomach it being administered the same way in the face of knowledge. Especially since some fairly informed people think that its calming effect is 50% imagined and 50% due to its anti-inflammatory (and hence painkilling) properties.
                                  I agree..I am not saying it should be given out like candy and the rest should look away, or that it doesn't happen often. Most I know of get between 3-5cc's before showing, every single show. I was targeting what one poster questioned-about dex making a horse "up" and another poster responded with when given in mass quantities, it quiets them down. I was pointing out even when within rules, people feel that dex has a quieting affect which is why it is given.

                                  I don't show indoors often, so if my mare gets dex twice before a show 5 times a year, that is a lot. She does require dex here and there throughout her allergy season, but my vet has assured me it should be safe in the infrequent, small dose I give. Nothing else helps her, so it is the lesser of all evils.

                                  Comment


                                  • Originally posted by Addison View Post
                                    Lets Chat...I agree with you and CBolen stated it well...there are a few people on this board (and elsewhere) that do feel we should all show under what are essentially FEI rules regarding medication. However, the vast majority of us in the hunter world do understand that a horse may continue to have a long and successful show career with a little help from an NSAID. Those are not considered illegal performance enhancing drugs. A horse that has arthritis in his hocks, fetlocks or where ever will most likely not benefit from better training and it should not preclude him from competing in the hunter ring. On the other hand, a horse that is too hot or spooky should not have the playing field leveled by a performance enhancing drug. He may need more/better training or he may need to find another job.

                                    Sorry had to go Alter here.

                                    I agree that a little help from a NSAID that helps a horse feel better and gets him through the week and doing his job for years and years is a good thing. Most like to do their job. What I cannot stomach is the drugs that are given for the "win". The med cabinets loaded with magnesium, perfect prep, banamine, naproxin, methocarbamol, dex etc. With many horses getting all of theses every night at one show. They are destroyed before their joints get a chance to get stiff. And we can talk about the side effects of each individual drug, but let's elevate the conversation and talk about what happens when these drugs are given in combination over long periods of time.

                                    I am preparing to leave my current barn because in the past month I have seen the trainers destroy two very nice first year horses. Casual observation has seen the following administered to each in the evening before a class: dex, magnesium, banamine, naproxin, methocarbamol. How long can that go on? Well, with these two, about 6 months. Oh, and depro, except that is given monthly at home, not at the shows.

                                    I am sickened. It is not happening with my horses - to the best of my knowledge - but there is a part of me that remains unsure what they are getting that I do not know about (my horses have only been to one two week show and they both remained quite up which is fine with me). In addition, I cannot watch and do not agree, so I will leave.

                                    Comment


                                    • ALTER EGO ME...Smart choice. I hope things work out for you wherever you are going to move to.

                                      Comment


                                      • Originally posted by AlterEgoME View Post
                                        Sorry had to go Alter here.

                                        I agree that a little help from a NSAID that helps a horse feel better and gets him through the week and doing his job for years and years is a good thing. Most like to do their job. What I cannot stomach is the drugs that are given for the "win". The med cabinets loaded with magnesium, perfect prep, banamine, naproxin, methocarbamol, dex etc. With many horses getting all of theses every night at one show. They are destroyed before their joints get a chance to get stiff. And we can talk about the side effects of each individual drug, but let's elevate the conversation and talk about what happens when these drugs are given in combination over long periods of time.

                                        I am preparing to leave my current barn because in the past month I have seen the trainers destroy two very nice first year horses. Casual observation has seen the following administered to each in the evening before a class: dex, magnesium, banamine, naproxin, methocarbamol. How long can that go on? Well, with these two, about 6 months. Oh, and depro, except that is given monthly at home, not at the shows.

                                        I am sickened. It is not happening with my horses - to the best of my knowledge - but there is a part of me that remains unsure what they are getting that I do not know about (my horses have only been to one two week show and they both remained quite up which is fine with me). In addition, I cannot watch and do not agree, so I will leave.
                                        Good for you... and for having the "guts" to stand up and say you don't agree with it.... That's just... plain out WRONG...
                                        Hope you find greener pastures somewhere where horses are... living as HORSES... (Not someone's fantasy.. where they couldn't care less what the HELL happens to the animal... they're in it for the quick buck, the quick fix and the quick death IMO...)
                                        But then again what the hell do I know... I've been scrutinizing this thread, putting my foot in my mouth for a little too long
                                        I really wish more people could be like you on this subject
                                        Proudly living in my "let's save the world bubble"!

                                        Comment


                                        • The guidelines for the use of dex in a horse that is showing are very clear about the fact that it must be given to treat an underlying medical problem. The rules do not permit the administration of dex in the absence of an underlying medical issue. Usually the problem involves some sort of allergic reaction together with inflammation. It does not include calming a hot horse.

                                          Comment

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